Massive rat die off - No idea what the cause is.

As of a few days ago, we've been losing adult rats left and right. The babies seem fine. Rats will seem perfectly healthy, then within a matter of hours start showing signs of physical sress, and are dead anywhere from a couple hours to a day later. I pulled out 4 dead adults this morning. 3 two days ago. 6 a day before that.

It's making me believe it may be disease/illness, as nothing has changed (except for a mixture of straw with their normal bedding in one rack, but the issue spans over all racks, and straw was replaced back to pine more than a week ago).
- I'm having 1 baby die to every 4-6 adults
- Each rack has it's own watering system: 2 have a gravity feed/valve system, the big-tub rack has water bottles for the time being.
- The Norways are the ones dropping, the ASFs al seem healthy and lively, no deaths.
- It's been in the 50-70 degree range the last week (moreso on the colder end) and on the warmer days I've cracked the garage door open, and it has not been too warm for them.
- We have chickens and ducks also in the garage, on the same bedding (pine), drinking the same water, showing no illness.
- We rotate in new blood every few weeks, but none have been added to the colony recently.
- We have fed off some of the babies to some of the snakes (before we realized it was an actual problem and not just a fluke of a couple old rats), and the snakes (adults and hatchlings) have shown no issues. Despite this, I'm afraid to feed anybody off unless I can pinpoint exactly what the problem is. One thing to lose a rat colony, another to lose all the snakes as well


Going to see if I can't do a huge clean of the entire system, add some ACV to the water, and talk to our vet about a huge dose of antibiotics. At the rate we're going, we'll be out of adult rats in antoher week or two, and we have 50+ mouths to feed weekly. Had a perfect system, even excess.. and now this. Ugh.

I appreciate any critical thinking, and really hope I can get this fixed. Not looking forward to starting up a new rat colony from the ground up.

No bueno! Hopefully you get it figured out or at least stop losing the rats. Definitely keep this updated as I am quite curious as to how this will turn out.

Maybe the straw was moldy, I know you said you only used it in one rack, but rats are very sensitive to molds.

~ Karl

It is rare to see something kill so fast, but I suspect mycoplasma. All rats carry the bacteria, and under certain circumstances, the bacteria explodes and overwhelms the immune system and causes death.

The only way to be sure would be to take one of the newly deceased rats and refrigerate it until you can get it to a vet for testing.

Gale

Straw was definitely not moldy. Was only in there a week, mixed with pine, and was they were the driest tubs of the lot. If it was mold strong enough to kill off rats 15 feet away, it would have harmed more than just the two pulled out of the straw racks. Total of two rats died from one single straw-tub. First was the male breeder among the 6 a few days ago, replaced him with a different male breeder, who was dead this morning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

It is rare to see something kill so fast, but I suspect mycoplasma. All rats carry the bacteria, and under certain circumstances, the bacteria explodes and overwhelms the immune system and causes death.

The only way to be sure would be to take one of the newly deceased rats and refrigerate it until you can get it to a vet for testing.

Gale

---

I was thinking mycoplasma as well... I've just never seen them die so quickly. If it is illness, I'm hesitant to treat them, and just contribute to a colony that is weak and will pass on weak offspring. Unfortunately, VERY limited on funds until Friday (waiting on money from my slacker roommate who is always a month late in paying her share of utilities). Will see about getting a rat in for a necropsy as soon as I'm able.

At the very least if I can do that I will have an idea if it's safe to continue feeding them to the snakes. If it is safe to feed to the snakes, I'm leaning towards a mass gassing/cull, freezer bags, and starting a completely new colony.

If you're adding new blood every few weeks it's possible one of two things did you in.

You might have simply brought in a virus on your clothing or hands or transport containers.

You may have gotten babies that appeared healthy because they were fresh off their mom's and were getting antibodies through their milk. It can take 4 months, or longer, for symptoms to manifest.

Have a necropsy done on a fresh one. It's the only way you'll know what you're dealing with.

Heck, you might have been targeted by a whacko animals rights nutjob who's figured out how to slip some poison into your colony, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

If you're adding new blood every few weeks it's possible one of two things did you in.

You might have simply brought in a virus on your clothing or hands or transport containers.

You may have gotten babies that appeared healthy because they were fresh off their mom's and were getting antibodies through their milk. It can take 4 months, or longer, for symptoms to manifest.

Have a necropsy done on a fresh one. It's the only way you'll know what you're dealing with.

Heck, you might have been targeted by a whacko animals rights nutjob who's figured out how to slip some poison into your colony, but that's a bit of a stretch.

---

I sure hope it isn't some nutjob. We did lay a small amount of poison under the house about a month ago due to an adult getting out, avoiding all other traps, and trying to eat the chickens. That rat has since been caught, and there is no other possibility for the poison to have reached (or still be reaching) the rats as they are currently - We even had an ASF that was loose, running in the same area as the loose Norway, eating off the same ground, who was caught, thrown into a cage, and has been there 2 weeks showing no illness. Is it possible for ASFs to be magically immune to poison that kills other rodents? We've thrown out the old bag of food and have freshly opened bag of bedding and food, for fear that the 'poison' rat somehow contaminated the food previously in the garage, but have seen no change.

The landlords said there has been a rat problem once in the past, I'm worried that wild rats may have contaminated the colony, but no rat food, chicken food, or our dog food, has gone missing in the few months we've been here. There has been no mysterious rat droppings except for under the dryer when the one escapee was missing.

We do have a family of starlings that is living in a little enclosed space between the roof and the ceiling of the garage, and one got into the garage two days ago, but even he had no mites or external visible parasites when I looked him over (most baby birds I come across are covered in crawlies). No other starling encounters in the garage before or since

We've only gotten new blood from a single location, and I've since messaged him about if he's seen any issues with his rats currently or in the past. All rats we've gotten have been breeder sized females. Any babies we've gotten have gone straight into the snake room, rather than being raised up, but the idea of an illness not yet manifesting is a great point that I hadn't thought of previously.

I'm going to check them tonight and see how many of the rats that are alive were breeders from our supplier, and how many were there previously. I'm now curious if we've picked up rats that have a stronger resistance due to being raised in one particular environment, and if the rats that we had before are the ones taking a hit. I wonder if all the healhty mom's on babies at the moment were directly from or descended from our 'new blood' stock.

The symptoms just before they die is wheezing, sucked in sides, excess porphyrin. A couple have had purple lips/noses (lack of oxygen), but most of them show only the first symptoms.

If you do indeed suspect myco, but don't have the funds for a vet, you can get Tetracycline antibiotic powder found in the fish section of any pet store.
You just have to mix it into their drinking water. Most vets will usually prescribe Baytril for rats, but Baytril isn't good for pregnant/nursing does or growing pups under 4 months of age. It will promote bone deformities.

Tetracycline is safe for all rats. (w/ or w/o myco)
I've had much success treating myco flare ups with this with no negative effects. And I have confirmed it's safety with some vets.

This is what I get:

It comes in packets of 10. Each packet contains 50mg of powder. One packet can be used on a 16qt water bottle. A box runs about $11 at my local pet store.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...35684607_o.jpg


I brought in new blood into my small colony last fall. The new rats I brought in had myco and I didn't realize it at the time. And it spread to 80% of my rats. I treated them w/ Tetracycline powder and now they're all fine. I did have one death, but that was one of the new rats. He showed the same symptoms you're describing. The rest were just sneezy.

Wow that sucks. I am starting a colony now and have been doing a bunch of reading up on care and what to expect/watch out for. I also will be keeping an eye on this thread as I am curious to know what the problem is. I hope you can figure it out soon. Good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

If you do indeed suspect myco, but don't have the funds for a vet, you can get Tetracycline antibiotic powder found in the fish section of any pet store.
You just have to mix it into their drinking water. Most vets will usually prescribe Baytril for rats, but Baytril isn't good for pregnant/nursing does or growing pups under 4 months of age. It will promote bone deformities.

Tetracycline is safe for all rats. (w/ or w/o myco)
I've had much success treating myco flare ups with this with no negative effects. And I have confirmed it's safety with some vets.

This is what I get:

It comes in packets of 10. Each packet contains 50mg of powder. One packet can be used on a 16qt water bottle. A box runs about $11 at my local pet store.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...35684607_o.jpg


I brought in new blood into my small colony last fall. The new rats I brought in had myco and I didn't realize it at the time. And it spread to 80% of my rats. I treated them w/ Tetracycline powder and now they're all fine. I did have one death, but that was one of the new rats. He showed the same symptoms you're describing. The rest were just sneezy.

---

Honestly, I'm hoping it's an illness, and not some freak way they got poisoned. I keep thinking over all the possibilities, and still leaning towards illness/disease, just by how it's spreading, and how certain rats seem perfectly fine, and others jsut drop off. Their gravity water bins have lids on the top, and I've checked them several times for any contamination. Not possible for a poisoned rat to get into the water, but I suppose it is possible it's gotten dirty somehow, or is growing something that isn't visible. Still, the thought that I've caused this because of putting poison out, is beating me up.

Annoyingly, I'm also rarely every this close on funds, but it's been one of those months. Everything at once, you know?

The only time I've had that in the past was due to heat issues. Just because the temps look good when you check them doesn't mean they've been good all day. Get a MIN/MAX thermometer that'll keep track of the highs and lows so you can see how hot it really gets at certain times of the day.

Also might want to check to see if the sipper tubes on your water system are clogged. That'll kill em pretty fast too.

Don't always assume the worst, start by troubleshooting the simple/obvious things first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

The only time I've had that in the past was due to heat issues. Just because the temps look good when you check them doesn't mean they've been good all day. Get a MIN/MAX thermometer that'll keep track of the highs and lows so you can see how hot it really gets at certain times of the day.

Also might want to check to see if the sipper tubes on your water system are clogged. That'll kill em pretty fast too.

Don't always assume the worst, start by troubleshooting the simple/obvious things first.

---

The warmest it's been in the garage is 75, for part of one afternoon the last couple weeks. It's been very cloudy and rainy most of the last two weeks here in the Pacific Northwest. I was wondering if maybe the spike in humidity + temperature back and forth has caused stress? Not nearly as drastic as the temperature flip-flops of the midwest, but it's still been noticeable.

Boyfriend just cleaned the water bins on top, one he said was pretty dirty - assorted dust and grime. Wonder how dust got into the tub that has a lid. Moving the chickens out to their coop tonight, and spraying the starlings with the can of compressed air until they leave the house, then blocking up the entrance from the outside. This will at least reduce outside factors, and bird dander, that the chickens are so good at tossing around. Probably going to buy a kill-trap or two (or three) to place under and around the rat rack, so that if there are any wilds running around, I can catch and kill them. Ordinarily, I'd catch and release, except with the possibility of poisoning, I don't want to catch and release, and be responsible for killing one of the many hawks, red foxes, or bald eagles in the woods in this area.

I think tonight I'm going to take down the water tubs, pull all the rats out into other tubs temporarily, and use a diluted bleach solution to flush out all the tubes, check all valves, then flush again with dechlorinated water. Will do the same for any water bottles.

Sounds like a good plan. Maybe try disinfect your rat bins too. Especially the ones where you found dead ones.

UPDATE -

Final results came back from necropsy, with Streptococcus Pneumoniae. Primary indicated mycoplasma, and we started on a round of azithromycin. Not fun treating each rat individually. I'm not entirely certain what this means, as I can't seem to find consistent information on the web about it. I'm finding info stating humans can get this, while other pages state there has never been a reported case of humans getting it. pneumoniae from rats, but rather that rats can get it form us. Finding some info that states it can be as common as myco, where it typically exists in the rat, but never causes issues unless the immune system is compromised, much like myco. All pages seem to agree that it cannot be fully removed from a colony without specific medical procedures (something that wont happen here), but that it also rarely causes enough issue to even interfere with research studies.

So... is this just another issue like myco, where our rats died by some freak chance, due to perhaps a fluctuation of temperature or something else that stressed them that I'm unaware of? Or is this an issue where I'm already a couple weeks late in making sure my meningitis shot is up to date, and I should start checking for brain abscesses? I assume if it were THAT serious, the lab would have informed our vet, however I'm more concerned with what this means as far as continuation of breeding. I need to know if this is something that will destroy new rats if added to the colony, and I need to cull all and clean, or if once they are done with their round of antibiotics, I can start adding new.

Appreciate any insight and help you guys have to offer!

Here's a few links I found:

http://netvet.wustl.edu/species/rats/ratbact.txt
http://www.criver.com/SiteCollection...pneumoniae.pdf
http://ratguide.com/health/lower_res.../pneumonia.php

Sad to hear what happened to your colony :(

Thanks Liv, those are the same documents I was reading, and both are conflicting. I still have no idea if they are a hazard to human health or to new rats if introduced :/

I so sorry to hear about this, since we have not seen each other for a while. Please let me know how it is going and if you all need anything that I can do?

The Kubias'

Did you mean 16 oz or 16 quarts for 1 packet of that powder? I had 3 rats die in 1 tank last week... I am suspecting that this is my problem...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strange

Did you mean 16 oz or 16 quarts for 1 packet of that powder? I had 3 rats die in 1 tank last week... I am suspecting that this is my problem...

---

Sorry. I meant 16oz.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I was reading on petsmart s website they said 1 packet per 10 gallons of water so I'm gonna try that stuff hope it works....

The Petsmart website is referring to how much to mix to treat fish tanks. The only time I ever used it I used 1 pack to each 20oz bottle. 1 packet per 16-20oz is a whole lot different than one packet to 1280oz (or one packet to 128oz if you meant using all ten packets in the box to treat ten gallons). You have to mix it a little stronger for usage as a rat drink vs a fishs water.

Sorry that this happened to you. Just for the sake of a post mortem (no pun intended) analysis so this becomes a learning experience for others - please don't read this in a tone of finger wagging. That is not my intent:

Make sure you quarantine new additions to any collection for an extended period of time. I'm of the opinion that if you inbreed until genetic complications work themselves out of your colony, that this is much safer than adding new blood from the vast majority of places you can buy rats. Any rat that sneezes frequently doesn't get babies held back; any rat that dies under 1 year old of tumors has the offspring carefully considered for retirement.

Lab rats are inbred purposely for 15? + generations before they are even considered a 'line'. Does this open up the possibility for them to be susceptible to a particular illness? Sure, but then again I keep my cages clean and uncrowded and don't introduce new blood, so the odds of such an illness entering my collection are low.

When I have to buy a feeder such as a mouse or a small rat if I have the wrong sizes at the time I am extremely sterile about where that animal is before it gets fed and what I do with all associated bedding, packaging, enclosures. Just like you would not pull a drooling ball out of a pile of babies at a pet store and throw it in with your most prized snake, I would not put a pet store or reptile rat breeder animal in with my rats now that I have an established, healthy, productive colony. When I do rarely add new blood I keep them in a different room and observe them for at least 2 months before integrating.

Anyway, good luck and I hope this never happens to you again!

I went and got some of the stuff I mixed 1/2 packet with a 8-9 oz water bottle we will see how the rats are doing when I get home tonight. How many times will I need to treat them????

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strange

I went and got some of the stuff I mixed 1/2 packet with a 8-9 oz water bottle we will see how the rats are doing when I get home tonight. How many times will I need to treat them????

---

It takes about 7-14 days to clear up if it's a minor/moderate infection.

Tetracycline is light sensitive, so cover up the water bottle with foil or something.
It breaks down otherwise.

Mix a new batch every 1-2 days.

Thanx everyone this forum I'd great my rats are doing great now not showing anymore signs and haven't had 1 rat die since I treated them... Thanx To everyone

Sorry to hear about you're loses. I believe my colony is going through a Mycoplasma flair up also. This morning I lost a female, she was showing the same symptoms - wheezing, sucked in sides, excess porphyrin and she refused to eat or drink. She was in the second week of nursing her pups. Good thing I had another female that had just weaned off her litter last week so I put her in there and she took over. I have another female showing the same symptoms also. She too also just finished weaning her litter last week. I think the stress from the litter and the bedding I had contributed to the mycoplasma flair up. The last bag of pine I had was a little dusty. I've read somewhere the phenols in pine inhibit the growth of micro-organisms which are absorbed through the respiratory tract. I switched to aspen and I'm going to the pet store tomorrow morning to purchase Tetracycline antibiotic powder and add it to the watering system. Makes me feel bad seeing them suffer like that and these are the first 2 girls that started my colony :(