RI? How? Why? seriously confused

I know this topic is on here and I've read every thread I could find on RI's and I'm not trying to treat it myself. I've battled them before and lost a beautiful bee to it even with antibiotics and vet visits. I don't understand how they got it. I've got two males (my cinnamon and het pied) neither was used for breeding this year (cinnamon was to small and het pied female wasnt up to weight yet) They were in the same rack one above the other (counting top to bottom slots 6 and 7 out of 10). The cinnamon is still eating weekly but not as aggressively as he used to. and the het pied hasn't eaten in about 2 months I wrote this off as I had females nearby producing follicals. I am almost ocd with my cleaning. I use hand sanitizer between every animal. deep cleaning: I swap out 5 tubs every wednesday. 10% bleach water, spray, scrub, rinse with hot water, dry, spray with lysol, let sit 24hrs, wash with dawn and water, dry and sit until the following wednesday.
Spot cleaning: Spray with vinegar based multisurface cleaner, wipe clean, dry with paper towel, wipe spot with rubbing alchol let air dry for 10min while I give it (bp) a quick wipe down with a wet warm paper towel and just enjoy holding my pet. My leopard geckos are in a different room as are my breeder rats and mice. The humidity is always between 55% and 65% the hot spot is 90 - 92 cool end has never droped below 79 ambient air temp is near 83 -\+ 2 my husbandry is spot on to the best of my knowledge. if not please speak up. so I really dont understand how they are showing signs of an RI. I have a strict qt proceedure and havent introduced any new animals into the room that they were in since october of 2011. None of the others in that rack or others are showing any signs. I just dont understand how They could have contracted an RI. they havent been rearranged or stressed more than regular cleaning, feeding, and the occasional holding while waiting for tubs to dry. Please if anyone can enlighten me please do so. I have a vet appointment tomorrow afternoon. getting throat cultures and antibotics planned. The two in question have been moved to a closet for qt. as I don't want to put them in my qt room and run the risk of infecting the ones that are nearly ready to go into the main collection. IDK if there's a real question in this thread but just had to vent. I just don't understand how these things happen. Guess thats the Q. How does this happen with all the precautions I take and how is it just these two males are ill and the rest are fine? I'll let you all know when I get the cultures back and what antibiotics the vet prescribes. Thanks all

There is a relation between ventilation and RI. Low ventilation and high humidity with ambient temps appropriate for royals is a perfect breeding ground for bacteria, fungus. Both of which can cause RI. With optimal breeding conditions the bacteria levels can be higher than normal, increasing the chances.

What is you ventilation like? I test mine by using a paper substrate and keeping the RH at 60% than removing the water bowl and timing how long it take to drop to room RH. I don't like seeing over one hour. Most of mine change in 20 min of less.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ons-The-Basics

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

There is a relation between ventilation and RI. Low ventilation and high humidity with ambient temps appropriate for royals is a perfect breeding ground for bacteria, fungus. Both of which can cause RI. With optimal breeding conditions the bacteria levels can be higher than normal, increasing the chances.

What is you ventilation like? I test mine by using a paper substrate and keeping the RH at 60% than removing the water bowl and timing how long it take to drop to room RH. I don't like seeing over one hour. Most of mine change in 20 min of less.

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Thank you. I had previously read the post you linked and wasnt sure exactly how to test ventilation. I will test ventilation in a little bit. I do have vent holes in my tubs but just a few. after testing I will add more if necessary. My 41qt racks also have a 1\8 inch gap between the shelf and top of tub. hatchling tubs fit snug but havent seen any issues within the hatchlings ever.

My vet called and got me in earlier this morning due to a cancelation. $49 office visit for both my boys. $20 each for injections of Convenia (long acting broad spectrum anitbotics for bacterial) $79 for both cultures. Now we wait for them to come back from the lab in 3 days. One of the questions he always asked is: "when was the last time they ate?" not a big deal. Now he is not a specialized reptile vet but is very knowledgeable and loves them. He seemed very concerned that my het pied hasnt eaten in 3 months. I find it very normal for this time of the year as i assume that most of you do also. He has lost 50 grams and still looks very healthy in the body weight department. He wanted to give him a vitamin injection to stimulate his appetite. does anyone have any knowledge of such actions? I declined them for now and wanted to wait for the lab results and to ask you all your thoughts on that part. I've got to go back in 3 days to get the results and can always get the vitamin injection then. but I just dont see any reason to "jump start" his feeding right now. How does it work any way?

People get sick from time to time despite their best intentions to stay healthy.

If your temps/humidity/ventilation are all good then I wouldn't worry too much.

Vitamin injections? No

I could be totally wrong here, but sometimes I think that it's possible to be too fussy about all of this stuff. As in sometimes, (and believe me I am guilty of it myself), people take the cleaning and adjusting temps and humidity and just generally fussing about the overall ball python housing and environment so much that it ends up becoming more detrimental to the snake than helpful. We all try so hard to get everything "perfect" for the snake when maybe at some point we need to simply not be so anal about it, get things to what would be considered a comfortable and nominally healthy state, and just let things be.

A good example is when both me and my dad had fish tanks at the same time. I was absolutely obsessive about keeping the water perfect and doing everything by the book etc. My dad did nothing. Seriously he did no water tests. no cleaning. heck he didn't even hardly ever change the filters, he just let the thing do whatever. And while I struggled to keep everything perfect I also struggled to keep any fish alive for more than a couple of weeks, and he never lost one fish. He had that tank for years and the fish grew huge and were just about the healthiest fish I had ever seen, if I could actually see them through the muck.

Anyways, before everyone jumps to conclusions and assumes i'm out of my mind and giving bad advice, i'm in no way suggesting to not make every attempt to have the proper set-up for our snakes, i'm just saying that maybe we go overboard sometimes and get so carried away with trying to get things "perfect", that it might be doing more harm than good. Just a thought.

I've heard of vitamin injections from a companion animal vet. But I've never had a specialized reptile vet offer it to me when a rescue I took in had RI.

I would keep declining. If your snake ever got to the point of emaciation, then I would suggest tube feeding, which is safer than assist feeding.

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Originally Posted by versicolor

I could be totally wrong here, but sometimes I think that it's possible to be too fussy about all of this stuff. As in sometimes, (and believe me I am guilty of it myself), people take the cleaning and adjusting temps and humidity and just generally fussing about the overall ball python housing and environment so much that it ends up becoming more detrimental to the snake than helpful. We all try so hard to get everything "perfect" for the snake when maybe at some point we need to simply not be so anal about it, get things to what would be considered a comfortable and nominally healthy state, and just let things be.

A good example is when both me and my dad had fish tanks at the same time. I was absolutely obsessive about keeping the water perfect and doing everything by the book etc. My dad did nothing. Seriously he did no water tests. no cleaning. heck he didn't even hardly ever change the filters, he just let the thing do whatever. And while I struggled to keep everything perfect I also struggled to keep any fish alive for more than a couple of weeks, and he never lost one fish. He had that tank for years and the fish grew huge and were just about the healthiest fish I had ever seen, if I could actually see them through the muck.

Anyways, before everyone jumps to conclusions and assumes i'm out of my mind and giving bad advice, i'm in no way suggesting to not make every attempt to have the proper set-up for our snakes, i'm just saying that maybe we go overboard sometimes and get so carried away with trying to get things "perfect", that it might be doing more harm than good. Just a thought.

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I think ball pythons are pretty hardy animals. I believe they can do well in a stable range of reasonable temps and humidity. However, I still think we should give them stable optimum conditions. Some snakes change their habits from the smallest change in temp or whatever else. For example, many of my hatchlings won't feed above 88-89 degrees. Anything above or below and they stop feeding.

And added stress on a snake increases the chance of RI. Their immune system is lowered and directly related to their stress. So leaving conditions to stray away from ideal usually does stress out a snake. Especially if it fluctuates a lot.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by versicolor

I could be totally wrong here, but sometimes I think that it's possible to be too fussy about all of this stuff. As in sometimes, (and believe me I am guilty of it myself), people take the cleaning and adjusting temps and humidity and just generally fussing about the overall ball python housing and environment so much that it ends up becoming more detrimental to the snake than helpful. We all try so hard to get everything "perfect" for the snake when maybe at some point we need to simply not be so anal about it, get things to what would be considered a comfortable and nominally healthy state, and just let things be.

A good example is when both me and my dad had fish tanks at the same time. I was absolutely obsessive about keeping the water perfect and doing everything by the book etc. My dad did nothing. Seriously he did no water tests. no cleaning. heck he didn't even hardly ever change the filters, he just let the thing do whatever. And while I struggled to keep everything perfect I also struggled to keep any fish alive for more than a couple of weeks, and he never lost one fish. He had that tank for years and the fish grew huge and were just about the healthiest fish I had ever seen, if I could actually see them through the muck.

Anyways, before everyone jumps to conclusions and assumes i'm out of my mind and giving bad advice, i'm in no way suggesting to not make every attempt to have the proper set-up for our snakes, i'm just saying that maybe we go overboard sometimes and get so carried away with trying to get things "perfect", that it might be doing more harm than good. Just a thought.

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I agree completely. I used to be anal about my cleaning etc, now I'm much more relaxed about it. Other than feeding and cleaning, I'm not in the snake room fiddling around with things. Knock wood - in seven years of keeping a respectable number of ball pythons, I've not personally ever had an RI (I've probably just jinxed myself).

I have heard of vitamin injections and read it does jump appetite. I don't necessarily agree it is needed but I don't think there is any harm either. How old / heavy is your snake?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I have heard of vitamin injections and read it does jump appetite. I don't necessarily agree it is needed but I don't think there is any harm either. How old / heavy is your snake?

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He was an early 2011 hatchling and weighs in at 580ish after not eating in a few months. My vet isn't a specialized reptile vet. My cinamon is a mid summer 2011 and he's nearly 900 grams but he eats everything including fingers if you don't pay attention. Lol
Many years ago when I had larger boas I used to buy this stuff called jump start. It was a paste came in a tube and you put a dab in the neonates mouth and it worked great to get non-feeders started. I can't find it anywhere now. Anyone else heard of it or seen it as of late?

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Originally Posted by H.o.F.R

He was an early 2011 hatchling and weighs in at 580ish after not eating in a few months. My vet isn't a specialized reptile vet. My cinamon is a mid summer 2011 and he's nearly 900 grams but he eats everything including fingers if you don't pay attention. Lol
Many years ago when I had larger boas I used to buy this stuff called jump start. It was a paste came in a tube and you put a dab in the neonates mouth and it worked great to get non-feeders started. I can't find it anywhere now. Anyone else heard of it or seen it as of late?

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First result that is not an ad :P
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Jump+start+snake+food

No, there is no clinical evidence that vitamin injections affect appetite, or do any good unless there is an actual vitamin deficiency (which seems pretty unlikely). For some reason, they remain an old standby 'treatment' among vets and human doctors alike. I think they want to feel like they're doing something, and imagine that this, at least, won't do any harm.

In your position, I would be very concerned that animals died IN SPITE of being treated. That simply shouldn't happen. If an RI is caught early, cultured, and treated with appropriate antibiotics, the animal should virtually always recover. If you lose any additional animals to RIs, it's crucial that you get an experienced reptile vet to do a necropsy.

An RI that does not respond to treatment with an appropriate antibiotic may simply not be a bacterial RI--it may be viral.

When you are cleaning, don't forget to clean the upper surfaces of the shelves--snakes will rub their faces all over those when in their bins.

If any snakes fall ill, quarantine them away from your collection immediately, in a separate room.

An occasional RI that clears up readily with a course of antibiotics is no big cause for concern, but a lot of them, and deaths, is a more serious situation.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

No, there is no clinical evidence that vitamin injections affect appetite, or do any good unless there is an actual vitamin deficiency (which seems pretty unlikely). For some reason, they remain an old standby 'treatment' among vets and human doctors alike. I think they want to feel like they're doing something, and imagine that this, at least, won't do any harm.

In your position, I would be very concerned that animals died IN SPITE of being treated. That simply shouldn't happen. If an RI is caught early, cultured, and treated with appropriate antibiotics, the animal should virtually always recover. If you lose any additional animals to RIs, it's crucial that you get an experienced reptile vet to do a necropsy.

An RI that does not respond to treatment with an appropriate antibiotic may simply not be a bacterial RI--it may be viral.

When you are cleaning, don't forget to clean the upper surfaces of the shelves--snakes will rub their faces all over those when in their bins.

If any snakes fall ill, quarantine them away from your collection immediately, in a separate room.

An occasional RI that clears up readily with a course of antibiotics is no big cause for concern, but a lot of them, and deaths, is a more serious situation.

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Thank you for the added info. I do clean the tops of the racks with a vinegar based mutisurface cleaner everytime I clean. Kinda ocd with my cleaning. I have a seperate room just for quarintine but with this go round I have moved an additional rack into a closet as not to introduce the RI into the quarintine room. I have a few in there about to hit the 90 day mark and want to get them into my main collection without making them wait it out with these guys. As for losing my bee earlier this year to an RI I feel better versed on the subject now and sure it will not happen again. I made sure to insist on cultures this time and will certainly find a more qualified vet if this first round of antibiotics doesn't work. I've already gotten the info of areptile vet and will be seing him soon if I don't see improvent within the next 2 weeks or if they seem to get worse.

First I'd like to say thank you all for replying to this thread that seems to have a topic that's been beat to death. also I'm sorry it has taken me so long to give updates. I work out of town for two weeks at a time and its a real pain to respond with my blackberry. The cultures came back bacterial of some sort the wife got the results and I couldn't begin to try and spell what she rattled off. Lol. Ventilation was not something that I ever took into much consideration. I checked it on a couple of my racks per how I was told in a previous post in this thread. It was good. None taking over 40 minutes to drop to realative humidity of the room. However I didnt think to check each rack. I was just informed that another male has taken ill from That same rack that the other two were in. It is the only rack i have using cb70 tubs instead of sterelite. I didn't check ventilation in it. I had the wife do so after she informed me that her albino male is sick also. 3 hours and still 5% over RH of the room. How could I have been so ignorant? So all five guys (3 of which are showing symptoms of RI) from that rack are now in quarintine in the closet and that rack has been decommissioned until I get home to add more vent holes and check it. The albino male will be @ the vets office in the morning for cultures and antibiotics. I feel like an idiot! I will keep you all posted on their progress. Thank you all very much!
Damon

TBH, this sounds like something contagious, and not a rack ventilation problem--you have 3 animals down with it in the same rack? Be sure that you disinfect the upper surfaces of the rack shelves--vinegar is not much of a disinfectant, you will need to use something that will kill bacteria and viruses, like bleach solution or F-10.

Double check the temperatures in that rack. One year, I had part of a heat cord fail--the top part worked, the last few feet did not, leaving one shelf without heating.

In your place, I would instate a very strict quarantine. Sick animals would be removed from the room, and the rack they were in would be separated from the others. Wash hands in between handling or changing water on EVERY animal (hand sanitizer is, sadly, not sufficient--latex gloves are also good). Do the 'sick' rack last when you go through the room, and the sick animals after that--never transfer anything between bins or racks, and keep each animal in its own bin, without switching bins or shelves.

Observe animals that are being treated carefully--if they do not progress as they should, tell the vet immediately. Remember that it's almost always possible to culture something, and an opportunistic bacterial infection is not always the primary cause of an illness. (In other words, if you start antibiotics, the animals shows some minor improvement, but then doesn't get progressively better, it may still be a virus).

It's better to be too paranoid, than not enough. I hope your critters get well quickly for you!

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Originally Posted by versicolor

I could be totally wrong here, but sometimes I think that it's possible to be too fussy about all of this stuff. As in sometimes, (and believe me I am guilty of it myself), people take the cleaning and adjusting temps and humidity and just generally fussing about the overall ball python housing and environment so much that it ends up becoming more detrimental to the snake than helpful. We all try so hard to get everything "perfect" for the snake when maybe at some point we need to simply not be so anal about it, get things to what would be considered a comfortable and nominally healthy state, and just let things be.

A good example is when both me and my dad had fish tanks at the same time. I was absolutely obsessive about keeping the water perfect and doing everything by the book etc. My dad did nothing. Seriously he did no water tests. no cleaning. heck he didn't even hardly ever change the filters, he just let the thing do whatever. And while I struggled to keep everything perfect I also struggled to keep any fish alive for more than a couple of weeks, and he never lost one fish. He had that tank for years and the fish grew huge and were just about the healthiest fish I had ever seen, if I could actually see them through the muck.

Anyways, before everyone jumps to conclusions and assumes i'm out of my mind and giving bad advice, i'm in no way suggesting to not make every attempt to have the proper set-up for our snakes, i'm just saying that maybe we go overboard sometimes and get so carried away with trying to get things "perfect", that it might be doing more harm than good. Just a thought.

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I too agree... Too much of anything is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by H.o.F.R

I just don't understand how these things happen. Guess thats the Q. How does this happen with all the precautions I take and how is it just these two males are ill and the rest are fine?

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I feel your pain. I wish I had an answer for you. Frustrating Situation :mad:

Ventilation can be a compounding factor not a cause in its self. The low air flow and high humidity and temps grows excessive amounts of bacteria. Much like a petri dish, increasing air flow slows bacterial growth but does not stop it. I would also suggest that vinegar is not an effective disinfectant. I too would suggest F10sc or chlorhexidine solutions. Remember almost all disinfectants need to be used on CLEAN surfaces (washed with soap first) and need contact time to work a safe bet is 20-30min. The upper surface of a rack it the real killer it needs to be wet so spray it every 5 min during the contact time. Yes it is a royal pain. I would do a full clean every few week while you have sick snakes.