which is better?

What feeders do you find are better for your snakes? We now have 10 snakes 8 bps and 2 rtbs. Most are on rats, and one will only take white mice. I'm planing to start a small breeding colony of mice for my one girl, but I'm undecided if I want to breed rats or asfs for the rest. What do you find are pros and cons to breeding/feeding out rats and asfs?

Rats are big enough so that you would only have to feed your rtb one or two. ASFs stay alot smaller as far as i know. I would breed rats and try and convert your mouser to rats. I would not breed mice bc generally they smell worse and you have to clean the bedding more often. (this is a general observation from what ive read on here, not saying its true in all cases).

They all are more or less the same as far as breeding goes...you keep them clean, keep them well fed/watered and you'll be fine. As far as feeding goes, there's nothing to support any of them being better than the other, but as your snakes get larger, rats are of more convenience/efficiency than mice or ASF's.

NORWAY RATS all the way. Considerably easier to breed, FAR fewer aggression problems between each other, and much lower chance of a mother killing her babies. They also seem to breed MUCH more consistently than ASFs or Mice. If I miss a pregnant rat and am too late in moving to a maternity tub, male norway rats rarely ever harm the babies. If I have orphaned baby rats due to a first time mom not quite being sure of how to be a mom, I never have an issue with being able to plop the babies in with another mom to take care of them.

Mice are notoriously a pain in the rear, frequently are aggressive towards each other and are MUCH more sensitive/easily stressed, and therefore tend to have more issues being good mothers.

I like ASFs and have a very small colony, but they don't get large enough to be able to feed just a single one as a proper meal for a large BP, and you would need several to feed anything but the smallest RTB. They take FOREVER to become sexually mature, but once able, they produce produce produce, and then they stop entirely... in a norway rat colony you can very easily add 'new blood'. Very frequently with ASFs people have difficulty introducing new blood to the colony and unless you are adding very young ASFs, the adults will frequently attack each other.

As for nutritional value, I can't weigh in. I feed Norways, and only have ASFs to scent rats for stubborn eaters, or to start babies if they wont start on rat pinks (rarely an issue). My primary reason for keeping ASFs is that I would like to have a large enough colony to be able to sell to others for feeders, because otherwise they don't have much use for my snakes.

You couldn't pay me enough to breed mice.

ASFs also take generally longer to get to a bigger size. Rats would be your best bet.

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Originally Posted by Anatopism

Mice are notoriously a pain in the rear, frequently are aggressive towards each other and are MUCH more sensitive/easily stressed, and therefore tend to have more issues being good mothers.

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This is obviously a strong(and misfounded) opinion...I've been breeding mice and rats for well over 2 years now and have never had an issue with mice being aggressive, having maternal issues, eating babies, etc... Maybe I'm just lucky, but after 1,000's of mice, I don't think so.

I breed mice, rats and ASF. The one I have had the hardest time with personally is the ASF by far. They are handy to have around for the stubborn feeder but if you have the option I would stick to rats, they are very forgiving of beginner mistakes and get the right size for the rtb. ASF tend to stay smaller and from my experience grow much slower. I love mice too by the way, awesome critters!

The rtbs are my friends and only staying till he either finds a home for himself where he can have them again or a new permanent home for them. For that reason I don't mind buying them rats if need be. My picky eater refuses rats. I got her to take 2 when I first switched to rats and since then nothing. I tried offering rats after she goes off feed for about 2-3 weeks at shedding time and she refuses. I have tried putting the rat into a tank with mouse bedding and everything else I could think of still nothing. I even make sure they are the right color white as possible. It's hard to get rat pups here unless they are about a month old so trying smaller pups is a challenge. I'm open to suggestions on getting her to switch over.

I don't mind breeding the rats for everyone. My friend knows someone who breeds asf locally which is why I was asking about them. On the topic of breeding mice.... I've done it in the past with minimal aggression, and they were all very good mothers. Thanks for the in input much appreciated!

To be honest with you ASF are only good if you have stubborn feeders. They are the crack of the rodent world. We Breed rodents and have had people that fed steady on them but never got them to cross back over to regular rats. Also if you can get them all feeding an the correct size rats then that's the way to go IMO. Mice are good but I still think rats are way healthier. More bone structure for more calcium and when they are still nursing then getting the milk from momma that is even more calcium. When we switched from mice to rats we notice a better healthier snake better clutches of eggs and everything else. That is my 2 cents lol....

It's not about what's better because nutritionally gram per gram it's all the same, now on the convenience level it's obviously easier to feed one prey than multiples.

But ultimately it's about what works for you and your snakes.

I don't care for mice. I especially would not want to have to feed a decent sized BP on just mice. You'd have to grow several mice for a longer period of time in order to feed a decent sized meal. Then you may run into a snake who only wants one feeder and then doesn't want to eat a second... so you have fed a tiny meal and it won't eat again until a week later(or whatever period of time you feed on).

Rats come in all sizes, from pinkies for small hatchlings, to mediums for large females. They grow to a larger size before they become able to "fight back". A adult mouse is capable of fighting the snake... a 'crawler' rat baby is not.

ASF take longer to grow to the 'adult' size. They seem to grow quickly to the 'weanling' stage... then they slow down getting to a decent feeder size. They never grow big enough to be a decent meal for a large BP... so you'd be back to growing more than one for each full meal, with the attendant issues of a snake potentially refusing to eat more than one rodent.

As far as personalities... mice seem stupid and flighty... asf are flighty and sometimes mean... domestic rats are smart and personable and easy to work with. That's what I've gotten from my own mice/asf/rats. I like being able to reach into a bin and scoop up a rat without chasing it around and trying to grab fifty times as it dodges. I can clean 4 rat bins to a single asf, because the little buggers will leap out of almost every container if the lid is cracked open to put more asf in. They wriggle free and leap for freedom at every opportunity. I can put rats into a open bin or bucket and rarely will one even leap to sit on the top edge... almost never will one actually jump out of the container entirely.

Other people have different experiences with their animals, of course. But this is what I've experienced myself.

I prefer ASF to other feeders because my snakes like them and they tend to maintain weight better. It seemed like when I fed ASF my snakes didn't poop as much and they appeared to hold onto every gram put into their bodies. However, rats are more convenient and if you ever have to sell a snake it'll be easier to sell one that's on rats. As far as ASF being crack to snakes, I didn't find that at all. All of my snakes switched readily between ASF and rats (I alternated rat one week, next two weeks ASF, etc). Just remember that it's your personal choice and every snake is different. ASF were easy to breed, although they do take a while to grow to a decent size ( my largest was 120 grams). If you breed for disposition they aren't too bad. You just have to remember that these animals weren't really intended for the pet trade, so most of them are pretty 'wild'. Good luck. :gj:

Thanks guys! I decided on rats for now, and am attempting to get my one girl to make the switch. Hopefully she will make the switch soon. If she doesn't I'll reconsider asf's for her. I'm not too concerned about her getting stuck on them as she won't be going anywhere. My daughter picked her out at our first show last fall when she was only 18 months old:).

From what you say you have, I suggest rats. But breed them AWAY FROM YOUR HOUSE! The stench is overwhelming from 2 pet rats. Also, in your problem with your mouser,try finding a white rat live or frozen. If it's alive, gas it with Co2. Mouse or rat shouldn't matter. Color however, has been known to cause some picky eaters to go off feed. it might be to small to eat a rat. Try a small white rat first. Maybe a rat pup or weanling.

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Originally Posted by QueenOfKing

From what you say you have, I suggest rats. But breed them AWAY FROM YOUR HOUSE! The stench is overwhelming from 2 pet rats. Also, in your problem with your mouser,try finding a white rat live or frozen. If it's alive, gas it with Co2. Mouse or rat shouldn't matter. Color however, has been known to cause some picky eaters to go off feed. it might be to small to eat a rat. Try a small white rat first. Maybe a rat pup or weanling.

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None of these statements are true. 1) Rats do not have to reek if they are cared for and cleaned frequently and properly. I have repeatedly been in a room filled with hundreds of rats and at least a dozen mice, where the only smell was the wood shavings, because everything was cleaned at least weekly. 2) Mice have a distinctly different scent than rats, which is more likely to affect an animal that hunts primarily by scent and heat than color. 3) In addition, a BP hatchling would have to be excruciatingly small to not be able to take a rat. I fed my hatchlings (smallest was 54g) rat fuzzies as their first meal two days ago, with no issue.