Could this be IBD?

Ok so long story short...in sept '11 I bought a 2009 1500g spider female from a guy who said she had a minimal wobble.
Well that wasnt the case at all! :rage:

I quarantined her and have never actually put her with my collection, shes just in her own room still.
Well when people talk about the spider wobble I cant relate much, my other smaller spider had such a slight one I couldnt even tell. So to see this spider freaks me out big time!

So basically she corkscrews her head and neck, her head has no problem going upside down. If I flip her over she takes a couple seconds to right herself. Shes been like this pretty much since I got her. Like shes kind of hard to watch at times.

She feeds (her striking ability isnt the best but she gets the job done), sheds, poops, drinks just fine, shes been gaining weight no problem.

I'm just worried this may me IBD? I've looked up symptons and apart from the "stargazing" like behavior she seems just fine. Or is this just how a bad spider wobble looks?
I've had her for 8 months like this, isnt IBD quite fast and fatal?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

You have a train wreck on your hands, not IBD. Sounds like she's thriving despite her issues.

Sounds like shes doing ok to me. Does she corkscrew 24/7 or just when you have her out and she gets excited?

Sounds like a pretty bad spider wobble to me. Some spiders have it bad, some you hardly notice. Also, some get better or worse with age.

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Originally Posted by Slim

You have a train wreck on your hands, not IBD. Sounds like she's thriving despite her issues.

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Yeah tell me something i dont know...:rage:
ok, so what makes you want to rule out IBD in what I've said?
MAkes me feel better that you so far you guys dont think thats what it is.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Sounds like shes doing ok to me. Does she corkscrew 24/7 or just when you have her out and she gets excited?

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not really 24/7 but if shes exploring her cage for prey or feeding.

It doesnt sound like IBD to me bc i know its more common in boas and bc i thought it settled in and the snake deteriorated pretty quickly. 8 months seems like an awfully long time for her to have it. Im far from an expert on it though.
Did you contact the person you bought her from asking if theres something that you are doing differently that could be making her wobble worse? (i.e. like stressing her out more?)

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Originally Posted by mues155

ok, so what makes you want to rule out IBD in what I've said?

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The time frame and the fact that she's a Spider. IBD would most likely have progressed to a fatal point by now. And, the symptoms you describe sound like a very bad Spider wobble.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

It doesnt sound like IBD to me bc i know its more common in boas and bc i thought it settled in and the snake deteriorated pretty quickly. 8 months seems like an awfully long time for her to have it. Im far from an expert on it though.
Did you contact the person you bought her from asking if theres something that you are doing differently that could be making her wobble worse? (i.e. like stressing her out more?)

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Oh I tried contacting him after I got her and he made himself very scarce.
typical, theres no way this snake didnt have this bad of a wobble when he owned her.

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Originally Posted by Slim

The time frame and the fact that she's a Spider. IBD would most likely have progressed to a fatal point by now. And, the symptoms you describe sound like a very bad Spider wobble.

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phew, well I feel better, I've been wanting to ask this on here for a while, but i guess i was kinda scared to hear what the outcome was lol ugg..:slamhead:

Ok, so in your guys opinions do you think she can go with my collection on the rack?

So basically I'm stuck with a crappy spider with a wobble that whom I could never rehome.
I dont think she should ever be bred...I'm assuming wobbles are pretty genetic?
so there goes money just down the pooper. :rage:

Actually, it's possible she DIDN'T have this severe of a wobble when her former owner had her. Shipping stress can bring it out, big time. Had it happen to me--I sold a woma to someone, and by the time it arrived, it was acting just like that. He got a refund, and I got it back. Now I just make sure to note, when I sell them, that these animals can have a wobble, and can develop it at any time, just like spiders. There's nothing wrong with the animal, it's just part of the mutation.

There's nothing wrong with your spider, and her offspring are no more likely to wobble than the offspring of any other spider.

Wobbles are not genetic at all to my knowledge and i wouldnt hesitate to breed her. I wouldnt allow her to maternally incubate, but im pretty sure you have a bator anyhow.
I would not hesitate at all to move her into the rack. Also if you get a chance to, posting a video of it would really help. No matter how well you try and explain the severity of it, the wobble could be worse or better than what were picturing in our heads lol.

For comparison, is it as bad as this? Not as bad or worse?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQmiywlaJk

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Wobbles are not genetic at all to my knowledge

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"Genetic" is a VERY broad word...the wobble is directly linked to the spider gene, therefore it is genetic. It is not an inheritable trait that will be passed on to non-spider offspring.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Actually, it's possible she DIDN'T have this severe of a wobble when her former owner had her. Shipping stress can bring it out, big time. Had it happen to me--I sold a woma to someone, and by the time it arrived, it was acting just like that. He got a refund, and I got it back. Now I just make sure to note, when I sell them, that these animals can have a wobble, and can develop it at any time, just like spiders. There's nothing wrong with the animal, it's just part of the mutation.

There's nothing wrong with your spider, and her offspring are no more likely to wobble than the offspring of any other spider.

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Well I do remember than when we shipped the overnight lows were not the best. She arrived pretty cold.
I just assumed he screwed me over because I have bought 2 snakes from him before the spider. And he was great and more than willing to answer any and all questions, the snakes were in great shape. And then I tried contacting him about the spider and I got no response.

I figured I just had to take on loss on her.
well it makes me feel better once again that you guys think breeding her can be done.
I just hope the babies wont have that kind of a wobble...but what if they do? how would I sell them?
This is why I wanted to get out of spiders! arrg.
Love the way they look and their combos but man it just isnt worth it to me.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Wobbles are not genetic at all to my knowledge and i wouldnt hesitate to breed her. I wouldnt allow her to maternally incubate, but im pretty sure you have a bator anyhow.
I would not hesitate at all to move her into the rack. Also if you get a chance to, posting a video of it would really help. No matter how well you try and explain the severity of it, the wobble could be worse or better than what were picturing in our heads lol.

For comparison, is it as bad as this? Not as bad or worse?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQmiywlaJk

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Her wobble is EXACTLY like that spider in the video you linked. Except she doesnt always have her head tilted.

I have a video on my phone but alas I broke my phone last night and wont have a replacement from the company until tomorrow. I will post a video as soon as I can.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

"Genetic" is a VERY broad word...the wobble is directly linked to the spider gene, therefore it is genetic. It is not an inheritable trait that will be passed on to non-spider offspring.

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Ok yes inheritable from parent to offspring is what i meant.
thank you

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

"Genetic" is a VERY broad word...the wobble is directly linked to the spider gene, therefore it is genetic. It is not an inheritable trait that will be passed on to non-spider offspring.

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yayayaya you know what i meant wiseguy :rolleyes:

its genetic to the spider gene but all of her offspring could have no noticecable wobble. Like a 90% white pied throwing all low pied offspring. Its all randomn.

If you really didn't want to deal with it, you could probably easily rehome her too. There are plenty of folks out there who aren't bothered by the spider wobble. ;) Like me. Haha! But I have no more room for snakeys currently. :(

Anyway, as has been mentioned, breeding her would still be fine and she should be able to be moved into your collection at this point as long as that is her only issue. If she had that bad of a wobble prior to shipping, the breeder should have informed you, but it can come on at any time with Spiders, so he may not have known it was that bad.

Also, as to IBD, which has been covered really, but just thought I'd add that IBD is primarily seen in boas and is VERY uncommon in pythons. I believe, if I'm remembering what I read correctly, the only instances of IBD having been seen in pythons were in pythons that had been housed in close proximity to affected boas. Soooo...I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I'm about 99% positive it isn't IBD. Plus, if she had IBD, she'd have deteriorated noticeably within the first few months and would likely be dead by now. She probably wouldn't have been eating either. If her behavior has been more or less constant since you've had her, again, not IBD. Hope that makes you feel better. :gj:

She's be deadsky by now if it was IBD. In pythons its quick and nasty.
It sounds like a normal train wreck spider wobble. I have one of those too. He thrives, eats, and breeds but acts like a silly boy all the time. I think if you're ok to deal with the wobs deal with it. Spiders are some of my best eaters and breeders.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by WarriorPrincess90

If you really didn't want to deal with it, you could probably easily rehome her too. There are plenty of folks out there who aren't bothered by the spider wobble. ;) Like me. Haha! But I have no more room for snakeys currently. :(

Anyway, as has been mentioned, breeding her would still be fine and she should be able to be moved into your collection at this point as long as that is her only issue. If she had that bad of a wobble prior to shipping, the breeder should have informed you, but it can come on at any time with Spiders, so he may not have known it was that bad.

Also, as to IBD, which has been covered really, but just thought I'd add that IBD is primarily seen in boas and is VERY uncommon in pythons. I believe, if I'm remembering what I read correctly, the only instances of IBD having been seen in pythons were in pythons that had been housed in close proximity to affected boas. Soooo...I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I'm about 99% positive it isn't IBD. Plus, if she had IBD, she'd have deteriorated noticeably within the first few months and would likely be dead by now. She probably wouldn't have been eating either. If her behavior has been more or less constant since you've had her, again, not IBD. Hope that makes you feel better. :gj:

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Well maybe now that I have some confirmation on her condition I suppose I'll try breeding her this year. Shes at a good weight...worth a shot I guess.
I'm just glad she doesnt appear sick.

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

She's be deadsky by now if it was IBD. In pythons its quick and nasty.
It sounds like a normal train wreck spider wobble. I have one of those too. He thrives, eats, and breeds but acts like a silly boy all the time. I think if you're ok to deal with the wobs deal with it. Spiders are some of my best eaters and breeders.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Oh I agree on that, my spiders have been my best eaters. They POUND food.
I just hadnt seen a wobble to that extent so you could imagine my surprise. The first and only spider I ever owned did not have noticable wobble. So this crazy lady caught me off gaurd to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

She's be deadsky by now if it was IBD. In pythons its quick and nasty.
It sounds like a normal train wreck spider wobble. I have one of those too. He thrives, eats, and breeds but acts like a silly boy all the time. I think if you're ok to deal with the wobs deal with it. Spiders are some of my best eaters and breeders.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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OP I do not believe you snake has IBD. It is very uncommon and not very likely. There is a test if you were truly concerned, You would need to contact Dr. E Jacobson in Florida (jacobsone@ufl.edu) The test the last time I checked was 100$ it needs to be prepared by a vet.

I asked Dr. Jacobson questions about IBD in pythons as he is the only scientist researching this disease. the answers were not what I wanted to hear. There is no evidence that it does not lay dormant in pythons and that it can be slow onset like boas. My conversation with him...


1. I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them carrying IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms?

I am not aware of any information about this,


2. Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

Not that I am aware of.

3. If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

I do not know anyone who is focused on studying IBD in ball pythons.

EJacobson

Also just to note, we have a spider who showed absolutely ZERO signs of wobbling. Until he had to have baytril injections for a hemipene prolapse. Stress REALLY brings it out. Also sometimes feeding time can bring it out. And sometimes it's very alarming to see them corkscrew like that. I just call my spiders my cute little screwballs :P

Well most of all I'm just at least comforted now by the fact that you spider owners can confirm that its just a bad wobble and that its pretty normal for the morph.
Me not having any experience in the matter needed some advice.
I do thank you all very much in helping me.
And I'm very glad that its rare in ball pythons. truly a horrible sounding virus.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

There is no evidence that it does not lay dormant in pythons and that it can be slow onset like boas.

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Bingo!!! There is a lot of misconstrued info that flies around the internet and gets passed on as if it is gospel. Truth is, IBD is at best, a very poorly understood condition. There is very little known as to how long it can lie dormant in an animal, boa or python, or how long either a boa or python can actively carry symptoms before it kills them. I think the main reason that people are so attached to the idea that it kills pythons so swiftly, is that in the majority of earlier documented IBD cases, it was in pythons. Now the tide has turned a bit, and as of somewhat recent, it has been seen primarily in boas.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Bingo!!! There is a lot of misconstrued info that flies around the internet and gets passed on as if it is gospel. Truth is, IBD is at best, a very poorly understood condition. There is very little known as to how long it can lie dormant in an animal, boa or python, or how long either a boa or python can actively carry symptoms before it kills them. I think the main reason that people are so attached to the idea that it kills pythons so swiftly, is that in the majority of earlier documented IBD cases, it was in pythons. Now the tide has turned a bit, and as of somewhat recent, it has been seen primarily in boas.

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If you look hard at those early IBD cases, with rare exception, many of those cases were never confirmed via necropsy.

Without getting into too much detail (Alex and I fleshed this out in another thread), many of those early reported cases (cough cough Anapsid cough cough) were never confirmed with a necropsy and could have easily been something like OPMV.

Those early reports left an indelible mark on keepers. Now any time an animals shows neurological symptoms or a collection is ravaged by disease, the community immediately thinks "IBD".

The fact is that an animal can easily be am asymptomatic IBD carrier and die of something else...........

my spider used to wobble pretty bad when i first got him he used to just sit and wobble real bad. i havent noticed it lately like it did before except for when he strikes and missed he twists his head backward.

People tend to jump the gun way to often and way to easily when it comes to IBD.

You have a spider and what you are describing sounds very much like a spider issue.

The issue with wobble in spider is that the individual may very well have never shown any severe signs however those signs may have been brought up all of the sudden by stress.

• Stress of shipping
• Stress of temps
• ect

No sure how warm you keep your spider but try offering a hot spot around 86/88 if you can.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No sure how warm you keep your spider but try offering a hot spot around 86/88 if you can.

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Funny that you mention lower temps bc i remember someone saying on here before about how theres a possibility that the spider wobble is linked to incubation temps. And that cooler incubation temps would produce spiders with little to no wobble. I also remember someone saying that it was suspected Kevin at NERD knew how to produce spiders with little to no wobble but was keeping it a secret lol.

*In no way am i saying this is true. I just remember reading it on here.*

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Originally Posted by Deborah

People tend to jump the gun way to often and way to easily when it comes to IBD.

You have a spider and what you are describing sounds very much like a spider issue.

The issue with wobble in spider is that the individual may very well have never shown any severe signs however those signs may have been brought up all of the sudden by stress.

• Stress of shipping
• Stress of temps
• ect

No sure how warm you keep your spider but try offering a hot spot around 86/88 if you can.

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See I did know about the spider wobble, I was well aware of the problem in spiders. I as being inexperienced in the morph and having one spider previously who didnt have a noticable wobble, was very surprised at this new snake being so bad. A "wobble" is one thing, but a snake thats corkscrewing and flipping its head upside down and not able to right itself looked really really bad to me.

I had no idea wobbles can get worse because of stress or just get worse as the snake gets older, etc. So I dont think I was wrong in assuming there was something wrong. Maybe I was wrong in assuming it was IBD, maybe I should have asked about neurological disorders in general I guess.
I'm sure I'm not the first person to jump to the conclusion of IBD in their snake.

I've spent quite a lot of time on the forums over the last year talking about morphs and at no time have I read that the wobble can get worse over time or get worse because of stress. If I had known that, then her arriving as cold as she did from shipping would have made sense as to why the previous owner said she had a slight wobble. Because I didnt notice her wobble being THAT bad until about 3 weeks into her quarantine. So it makes sense now.
So, again I thank everyone for your help.

Ill try lowering her hot spot.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Funny that you mention lower temps bc i remember someone saying on here before about how theres a possibility that the spider wobble is linked to incubation temps. And that cooler incubation temps would produce spiders with little to no wobble. I also remember someone saying that it was suspected Kevin at NERD knew how to produce spiders with little to no wobble but was keeping it a secret lol.

*In no way am i saying this is true. I just remember reading it on here.*

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Spider wobble is link to the spider gene, it's my belief that ALL spider wobble, of course there are degrees to that wobble from very slight (which lead new owner that do not know what to look for to claim there's do not wobble) to severe (rolling around etc)

Can incubation temps make a difference in the degree of wobble out of the eggs (who knows)

The issue with wobble is while it can be very mild at first it can increase overtime and vice versa.

Stress and higher temps can trigger a more acute wobbling which is why I suggested slightly lower temps.

It's very possible in this case that it will revert back to a milder wobble only time will tell.

I have also noticed if the temps pop up even a degree or 2 ( I keep mine at 88-89 anyway ) that he starts wobbling. The rest of the time I can't even tell... unless he misses a strike and his head 'bumbles' while he lines up another shot. Pretty cool stuff, I had not heard about that before but it's consistent with my experience.

Of course, what folks are thinking of as 'less severe wobble at lower temperatures' may be nothing more than 'less severe wobble due to lower metabolic rate'--in other words, it's just masking the symptoms. Just a suggestion. :)

As for selling spider hatchlings--evaluate their wobble. Now you know what a more severe case looks like. Check a lot of vids, and decide what a slight, moderate, or severe wobble looks like. Be forthcoming when you advertise them, and remind people that shipping stress can increase the severity of a wobble in these morphs. Those with a worse wobble may be marked down in price.

You'll sell them just fine, most people realize by now that this trait, while a little disturbing to see, is harmless and part of the morph.