Deserts Market tanking?!?!?

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=925203

So i know the topic of desert females has been beaten to death a few times more than needed, but i saw this and thought to myself, has it really destroyed the value of deserts that much? Do people in the BP world only buy them to breed them and make money? no longer just the hobbyist we started out as the simple enjoy the visual appeal of the snake?

It seems that unless you can make money in some hopeful dream, the morph fizzles out and loses value quickly.

But what is the purpose of value or a price tag if you dont plan on breeding it and making money. If there wasnt a dream to create new snakes wouldnt all snakes be pretty much the same price? I cant see anyone paying $1k+ on a snake that is pretty much the same as any other bp except for color unless they had some kind of plan for it. Would u pay an otherwise astronomical price for one if it were solely for a pet purpise? Just tryin to stir the pot a little :)

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

But what is the purpose of value or a price tag if you dont plan on breeding it and making money. If there wasnt a dream to create new snakes wouldnt all snakes be pretty much the same price? I cant see anyone paying $1k+ on a snake that is pretty much the same as any other bp except for color unless they had some kind of plan for it. Would u pay an otherwise astronomical price for one if it were solely for a pet purpise? Just tryin to stir the pot a little :)

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Lend me $1200 and I'll let you know.

:D

Adult single gene Deserts really are not that spectacular visually IMO, so they lack the wow factor.

Mike Wilbanks just sold two female Tigers (Desert Enchi) for $500 ea., and that is a very nice looking combo, but still a couple hundred more than I would pay for a sterile pet.

There are some stunning Desert combos, and someone may be able to get a little for a display pet for the higher end ones. Females will be a byproduct of breeding males and sold very inexpensively as pets (as they should be).

Monetarily, hitting a female Desert is about as useful as hitting a Normal male.

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

But what is the purpose of value or a price tag if you dont plan on breeding it and making money. If there wasnt a dream to create new snakes wouldnt all snakes be pretty much the same price? I cant see anyone paying $1k+ on a snake that is pretty much the same as any other bp except for color unless they had some kind of plan for it. Would u pay an otherwise astronomical price for one if it were solely for a pet purpise? Just tryin to stir the pot a little :)

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I know that I would because i have considered it a few years ago when GTP's, or at least really Nice sub-adult. boelens python are not cheap either and they arent even a morph just simply the breed of python carries a value. that is a collectable snake and I would gladly pay 2-5k for one if i had the cash.

And there are BP's I would pay good money for to own as a collectable pet without the intent of breeding. People do it for dogs all the time.

Is the Desert gene rendering even the combos sterile?

I don't know anyone that just collects snake morphs. People that have more than a few snakes tend to also breed. If not for profit then to recoop the cost of getting what they wanted or t get what they really wanted by buying the ingredients for it.

I am breeding to recover the money invested and to get my sought after pieds.

So if I really wanted a desert, which I don't, but if I did, I would be breeding to get the money to by a desert since it is a base codom which I can't afford outright.

So to the OP's point, since desert females aren't breedable (as evidence has shown so far) they are about as valuable as a normal male.

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Originally Posted by modean02

Is the Desert gene rendering even the combos sterile?

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on females yes.

Guess I'm wrong, but I thought the market will hold for a while because of the difficulties with breeding. Making the morph more rare.

Anybody purchasing male deserts any time soon?

I saw this too, and I'm not surprised really (well, maybe a bit surprised that they're literally being GIVEN away, but then again, people give away normal males too). Once it becomes more and more obvious that desert females are a no-go breeding wise, I think their value will definitely keep going down across the board.

I think the price of desert males will be relatively stable because not only will people continue to breed for combos (with the hope they get some males out of it), but with females rendered useless for those purposes, male desert and desert combos will be even more in demand.

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Originally Posted by alittleFREE

I saw this too, and I'm not surprised really (well, maybe a bit surprised that they're literally being GIVEN away, but then again, people give away normal males too). Once it becomes more and more obvious that desert females are a no-go breeding wise, I think their value will definitely keep going down across the board.

I think the price of desert males will be relatively stable because not only will people continue to breed for combos (with the hope they get some males out of it), but with females rendered useless for those purposes, male desert and desert combos will be even more in demand.

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I still see and appreciate deserts and combos. I suppose the value of them speaks heavily to what the hobby as a whole is doing. (or at least most BP keepers anyway) If it cant breed its not worth much. I am curious with this and the caramels how much is the gene itself or something we have been doing as a community. I would be really curious about some of the original spiders and what they were like as well as the offspring.

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Originally Posted by Salamander

Lend me $1200 and I'll let you know.

:D

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Just Paypaled it :)

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Originally Posted by tcutting

I know that I would because i have considered it a few years ago when GTP's, or at least really Nice sub-adult. boelens python are not cheap either and they arent even a morph just simply the breed of python carries a value. that is a collectable snake and I would gladly pay 2-5k for one if i had the cash.

And there are BP's I would pay good money for to own as a collectable pet without the intent of breeding. People do it for dogs all the time.

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i totally agree with you. I have a reef aquarium and some fish and coral are over $100 for a 2"fish. I understand the whole thing with dogs too.

But for the sake of the thread my rebuttal would be that without the explosion in popularity of bp breeding, morphs with such subtle differences would not demand such a high price tag. To the average looker most "morphs" dont look too different than normal bps. There are the extreme examples such as pieds and binos. Morphs that enhance color such as enchis and pastels would have no more value than normals. And without the breeder mindset, most morphs would not draw the attention that they do. With the wide variety of dog and cat breeds as such an everyday thing, i cant see snake colorations being enough of a factor to drive price without the breeder mindset.

Most on lookers with no inside knowledge to the world of bps (in my 5 yr experience) dont understand how spectacular it is that a species of snake can have so many different skins. And many cant wrap thier head around how my albino and normal are the same kind of snake. They always say "oh i saw one of those on tv it was like 15 ft long!". They simply label any species of big snake as "python" (even boas).

Sorry for the tangent, just illustrating how outside of the world of bp breeders, the sheer awesomeness and drive behind the high prices may not be there.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I don't know anyone that just collects snake morphs.

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Good Morning! My name is Slim, and I collect BP morphs...And only males at that ;)

I contacted this person about purchasing a female and was shot down with my offer. To me it was reasonable for a pet that I considered pretty cool but had no future potential to breed for me. The desert problems were totally exposed recently and the potential for breeding these females has shown to not only be impossible but also dangerous to the females.

Over the past few years as the problems started to become more exposed I had talked with many breeders at shows who swore up and down they had the answer. This year I saw many of the same breeders at a show recently and the rhetoric has totally died down and rational thought has begun to kick in. Desert females will never reproduce like a normal. Will someone somewhere get a desert female to lay a good egg? Sure, maybe they will but that won't change the fact 99.9% of the females won't.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Good Morning! My name is Slim, and I collect BP morphs...And only males at that ;)

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We all know they exist. Every once in a while one will show their face... Your like the bigfoot of ball python keepers ;) lol.

I kid, i kid.

By the way slim, since ive been getting more into breeding my bps your posts have been very informative for me. I commend you for sticking to the pet first foundation of this hobby :p:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

Just Paypaled it :)

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Hmmmm....I didn't get any PayPal notice.

:D

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

i totally agree with you. I have a reef aquarium and some fish and coral are over $100 for a 2"fish. I understand the whole thing with dogs too.

But for the sake of the thread my rebuttal would be that without the explosion in popularity of bp breeding, morphs with such subtle differences would not demand such a high price tag. To the average looker most "morphs" dont look too different than normal bps. There are the extreme examples such as pieds and binos. Morphs that enhance color such as enchis and pastels would have no more value than normals. And without the breeder mindset, most morphs would not draw the attention that they do. With the wide variety of dog and cat breeds as such an everyday thing, i cant see snake colorations being enough of a factor to drive price without the breeder mindset.

Most on lookers with no inside knowledge to the world of bps (in my 5 yr experience) dont understand how spectacular it is that a species of snake can have so many different skins. And many cant wrap thier head around how my albino and normal are the same kind of snake. They always say "oh i saw one of those on tv it was like 15 ft long!". They simply label any species of big snake as "python" (even boas).

Sorry for the tangent, just illustrating how outside of the world of bp breeders, the sheer awesomeness and drive behind the high prices may not be there.

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That still totally blows my mind.

I don't know of any other animal on earth who can pull off what BPS do.

They're like the Crayolas of the critter world.

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Originally Posted by Salamander

That still totally blows my mind.

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X2
Just leaves me to wonder whats the next new morph....

And that right there i think explains the whole thread. There will always be the "next new thing". And without the possibility of that,as with deserts, people would rather pay that big money on something else...

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Originally Posted by tcutting

I know that I would because i have considered it a few years ago when GTP's, or at least really Nice sub-adult. boelens python are not cheap either and they arent even a morph just simply the breed of python carries a value. that is a collectable snake and I would gladly pay 2-5k for one if i had the cash.

And there are BP's I would pay good money for to own as a collectable pet without the intent of breeding. People do it for dogs all the time.

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I'm not sure how many people out there spend $1000 + on their pet dog they have no intentions on breeding. ( Yes I know some people do but they are few and far between) I purchased my American Staffordshire Terrier for $500 and I would do it again in a heart beat. However I spent that much for bred temperament and the way she was raised as a puppy. The fact that I could register her with the AKC and have paper work that made her not a Pit Bull to the insurance company. As far as I know most people do not buy a snake based on temperment.

Honestly I would never pay $1000 for a pet snake. I have spent $300 on a pet snake before with no intentions on breeding him however it was something I have always, always wanted, and I doubt to many people are saying that about the dessert.

Just like anything else dessert snakes are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. I would never spend 2-$5,000 for a GTP and you would. We hold things at different values.

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

We all know they exist. Every once in a while one will show their face... Your like the bigfoot of ball python keepers ;) lol.

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:8: You might be surprised to find out just how many collectors there are out there. Most of them just don't have an online presence, and many of them have considerable resources ;)

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

By the way slim, since ive been getting more into breeding my bps your posts have been very informative for me.

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:confuzd: I don't know nothin' about birthin' no babies...:rofl:

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Originally Posted by M&H

Honestly I would never pay $1000 for a pet snake.

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I never say never, but to date, I have not spent that much on a snake. Which, is why I don't have my Pied yet. That's coming this summer :gj:

Regardless of their problems I still plan on breeding some desert stuff when I have the ability along with caramel albino stuff too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

I think people can breed the males all they want. I think that trying to breed the females is ethically wrong at this point. It is not worth the life of the snake to try to prove a moot point.

What I hope though is that the more unscrupulous breeders do not resort to culling females....

Back to the original question, is that the "tanking" is overdue and the prices can no longer be artificially held up since a few honest breeders have come forward with facts about the matter.

:confuzd: I don't know nothin' about birthin' no babies...:rofl:



Sorry i must have misworded... Your info pertaining to ball pythons in general not specifically in breeding. Maybe this heat is getting to me :confused:

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I think people can breed the males all they want. I think that trying to breed the females is ethically wrong at this point. It is not worth the life of the snake to try to prove a moot point.

What I hope though is that the more unscrupulous breeders do not resort to culling females....

Back to the original question, is that the "tanking" is overdue and the prices can no longer be artificially held up since a few honest breeders have come forward with facts about the matter.

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I still would like to get a combo as a pet but with the prices on the down fall i will wait until they become more stable. and it seems that fertility plays a HUGE role in the price, not just what it looks like.

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Originally Posted by tcutting

People do it for dogs all the time.

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Dogs don't sit in a tub inside a rack hiding under newspaper 99% of it's life. They're a bit more interactive.

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Originally Posted by che

Guess I'm wrong, but I thought the market will hold for a while because of the difficulties with breeding. Making the morph more rare.

Anybody purchasing male deserts any time soon?

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Prices were holding...but it ain't looking good...hence the the bottom now falling out...as it has been mentioned, they are now the equivalent of a normal male hatching out...

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Originally Posted by sho220

Dogs don't sit in a tub inside a rack hiding under newspaper 99% of it's life. They're a bit more interactive.

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you obviously havent seen my mothers Chihuahuas. everytime i visit her they hide all day and crap where they are hiding. Ohh and are far more likely to bite people. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by tcutting

you obviously havent seen my mothers Chihuahuas. everytime i visit her they hide all day and crap where they are hiding. Ohh and are far more likely to bite people. :rofl:

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Those are rats, not real dogs :O



J/K....