Ongoing Experiment: Unregulated ZooMed UTH, Heat yield and transfer

I've made a blog for my new little experiment. Using this page in the link below, I will be recording all details of the project, including: photographs, a hypothesis, summaries, outcomes, and data.

http://unregulatedzoo-med.tumblr.com/

Feel free to criticize, suggest, ask a question, or try this experiment on your own.

Is Exo terra is next? :D

I can't wait to hear about your findings! :gj:

I did something similar for a shorter amount of time and the UTH ended up hitting 118.

Looking forward to seeing your results.

Is it a really a mystery that almost all uth's get too hot to use unregulated?

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Is it a really a mystery that almost all uth's get too hot to use unregulated?

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To some people apparently it is...

see this thread: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...irectly-to-tub

I did a similar experience with the small Exo-Terra UTH. After a few hours it was reading over 138 degrees.

I still use that heat pad.. With a thermostat. :gj:

It might be interesting to see what a ultratherm would do with a glass tank unregulated. They rarely get over 110º maxed out. I would still NEVER suggest the use of any under tank system with out a t-stat but it would be interesting to see how low it produces.

Hey Aaron the advise was on a tub too boot... they heat faster and transfer more heat than glass tanks!

I only question the point and validity of the experiment, since the product in question is suggested for use on the side of an enclosure and its secondary application is an UTH. In addition, the ambient temperature of the room being near 80F would cause all but the most high desert herp owners to question using a UTH on full blast. (I believe even the packaging that is being scolded about says this even.) Finally, the product in question is intended to be used with substrate. If I am reading your "experiment" correctly, you will be putting some sort of substrate in later... so the readings really don't make sense now.

What, exactly, can you gain from not following the packaging instructions other than bad mouthing a product(s) that work just fine for some people? And, as someone in the heat transfer field, please use a better DOE or do some initial supportive research before suggesting you are presenting a grand "thesis" - IMHO of course.

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Originally Posted by sleepygeckos

since the product in question is suggested for use on the side of an enclosure and its secondary application is an UTH.

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The product in question is called the Zoo Med ReptiTherm U.T.H.

It IS designed and marketed as a UTH not a side of tank heater...side mounting is only "preferred" if there is not adequate ventilation, which the OP provided with spacers under the tank.

Substrate can be very easily moved around so what happens when the snake touches the bottom of a tank that is 130 degrees?

I too know a thing or two about heat transfer (taken thermodynamics 1 & 2 as well as Physics with Calc 1, 2, & 3 as a part of my Electrical Engineering Major). Sure it is possible to do the math and rig a UTH so that a thermostat isn't needed (assuming that the room temperature remains fairly constant) but that is not something that the average user is capable of.

Do you really think that a piece of ReptiCarpet is going to lower the temperature by 30 plus degrees? (which would be following Zoo-Meds directions to the letter)

A thermostat is 100% necessary in 99.99% of UTH installations... I don't understand how anybody could think otherwise especially if they actually know a thing or two about heat transfer...

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I too know a thing or two about heat transfer (taken thermodynamics 1 & 2 as well as Physics with Calc 1, 2, & 3 as a part of my Electrical Engineering Major). Sure it is possible to do the math and rig a UTH so that a thermostat isn't needed (assuming that the room temperature remains fairly constant) but that is not something that the average user is capable of.

Do you really think that a piece of ReptiCarpet is going to lower the temperature by 30 plus degrees? (which would be following Zoo-Meds directions to the letter)

A thermostat is 100% necessary in 99.99% of UTH installations... I don't understand how anybody could think otherwise especially if they actually know a thing or two about heat transfer...

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Well, taking an actual class in Heat Transfer, not thermodynamics, might give one more than "knowing a thing or two" about heat transfer... I've worked with many an electrical engineer, if "knowing a thing or two" was actually knowing heat transfer, I'd have never gotten a job or pursued any of my higher degrees. So, thanks! :D

I have long thrown away my packaging for, what I believe, the model that is being tested is, but I remember it recommending far more than repti-carpet... something along the lines of inch or more of substrate and, of course, this is assumed to not move by the manufacturer because how can you spec something for unknown levels? Does it not mention special consideration for burrowing animals? (One of the models we have did... not sure which one now.)

My concern and question continues to be this seemingly witch hunt against products that, some people have a problem with - BUT, as mentioned in the other thread, in many, many places these are the only products that are available. Take them away and you take away a lot of opportunities or worse, leave people to even more horrible options.

Maybe instead of a witch hunt, an educational campaign about proper use of UTHs... posting "horrible burning data" is no different than protesters with graphic signage. Non-bias educational material, pushing for more availability of thermostats or other product options and the like are a much better use of time.

PS I'm in your .01% then, spam me, but our home environment and set up allow for it. We took the time and followed all directions because, initially, thermostats were out of our reach - now we have a system that works for us and I currently don't see a need.

Nobody is saying that these UTH's are bad products... simply that they need a thermostat to be safe, and probably should be labeled as such.

I have no problem that you don't need one, as I said if I was willing to put the time in, I could probably do so myself. But that is not something that most reptile owners CAN do.

Not that it really matters, but if my class aren't enough to show that I know what I'm talking about,then how about this. I work for a company that produces Military grade laser systems (both range finding and weapons grade) I spend most of my days running equations in MathCAD and MATLAB determining the potential heat output and transfer of the laser diodes as well as the other electrical components to ensure that our products don't overheat even in the worst imaginable conditions... if you think that heat transfer isn't in the realm of electrical engineering then I would venture to guess that you know very little about it.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

Nobody is saying that these UTH's are bad products... simply that they need a thermostat to be safe, and probably should be labeled as such.

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If that is the case, it sure doesn't sound or come off that way in these two threads. Sounds more like a "pull them all off the shelf and everyone should buy, possibly overkill, online products or else."

And no, it doesn't matter, but you brought up your specific "qualifications" first, I just called into question the DOE and labeling this a heat transfer experiment. I'm actually a little amused at name dropping MathCAD and MATLAB though... shall we compare an FEA of the tank to the experimental findings? Natural convection driven of course... would you say a foot out is far enough to grab the relevant data? That would give some information for people who put their enclosures next to each other as well, or should that be taken into consideration? Again, I'm questioning the DOE, I suppose...

This is a completely valid test, 99% of new BP owners who use an unregulated UTH will simply stick the UTH to the bottom of the tank, throw in some aspen and call it a day. Even if they follow the directions to the letter (which can be found here: http://www.zoomed.com/Library/Produc...tankheater.pdf )they still aren't going to do much different. (add in a piece of Reptile Carpet)

A FEA a foot out isn't going to get you much data as UTH's really don't effect the surrounding air all that much... (this can easily be proven by hovering your hand 1/2" above a UTH that has been on for a few hours... you really aren't going to feel any heat radiating off of it)

This thread hasn't said anything negative about these products at all... simply that they get to a certain temperature that in all reality is far too hot for a BP... My thread that you are referring too is not trying to say that these products are bad, but that I feel that their packaging is misleading and should be changed. I have no issue with the product itself (as it is nearly identical to flexwatt or any other resistive heating pad on the market today) I feel that they are overpriced and that is why I do not use them. I do have an issue with a company not being upfront about something that can (and has) lead numerous reptiles to get burned.

http://zoomed.com/db/faq/Search.php?...=49&Search.y=9

The issue of substrate is in can be moved. I have never seen any substrate that is not movable. The test should include the highest temp a snake has access to. Zoo med states a 2-8º shift possible even at 107º that is unacceptable.

Incorrect temps are linked to 90% perhaps greater issues reptiles have health wise. I believe it is possible to line up conditions on a glass tank that provide a max spot in the mid 90s as long as nothing changes. The problem with this belief is NOTHING CHANGES. Weather changes, amount of substrate changes, RH changes, room temps change, snakes move around, and the 1000 other variables. Everything changes. A thermostat adjusts accordingly to adapt to the variables that effect temps. Rheostats control the max temp out put. (in stable room temps they work ok I don't like them but...)

A decent thermostat is around 100$ purpose build and designed exactly for the task at hand. A acceptable thermostat that will work is 30$. The simple fact remains this inexpensive tool safe guards the health of the animal. Resistive heaters often change the temp out put though the life of the panel as they age resistance increases and the temp creeps higher. What you do with your experience is fine but the mentioned 'witch hunt' thread was recommending an unregulated UTH on a plastic tub. This is IRRESPONSIBLE how would you feel if an in experienced owner had a snake burned from YOUR advise? The witch hunt on my part is about reckless advise that is beyond logic. (1/32 plastic insulating better than 1/4 glass who believes this???)

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Originally Posted by sleepygeckos

I only question the point and validity of the experiment, since the product in question is suggested for use on the side of an enclosure and its secondary application is an UTH. In addition, the ambient temperature of the room being near 80F would cause all but the most high desert herp owners to question using a UTH on full blast. (I believe even the packaging that is being scolded about says this even.) Finally, the product in question is intended to be used with substrate. If I am reading your "experiment" correctly, you will be putting some sort of substrate in later... so the readings really don't make sense now.

What, exactly, can you gain from not following the packaging instructions other than bad mouthing a product(s) that work just fine for some people? And, as someone in the heat transfer field, please use a better DOE or do some initial supportive research before suggesting you are presenting a grand "thesis" - IMHO of course.

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As Adam pointed out, these are indeed intended primarily for use on the bottom of the tank. I am using this product exactly as recommended by ZooMed's packaging, in the exact way that most people who buy them do. I am not bad-mouthing or condemning this product in any way. I never said I would be presenting a "grand thesis." I'm not sure why my miniature, independent project upsets you so much.

The readings make plenty of sense. I plan to show that the substrate will make very little difference in the temperature of the hot spot, just as the glass causes little to no heat loss.

The ambient temp being 80F is arguably irrelevant to the heat of the UTH. If you really want to argue that it makes a difference, I will attempt this same experiment again in a 65-70F room. I am fairly certain that the UTH will still reach 110+.

I am not attacking this product. I have not said a word to condemn it or its use. The product is, according to ZooMed, working exactly as intended and under the recommended conditions.

The only thing I am trying to show from this is that an unregulated, properly installed, functional UTH can and will cause an animal to sit on a hot spot that exceeds 100F, regardless of glass or substrate. :gj:

The companies that manufacture these products NEED to market them responsibly, and recommend CLEARLY on the packaging that they should not be used without a rheostat or thermostat, if they don't place a rheostat on the cord (which would be the most ethical solution).

Claims that people are not using them 'according to directions' don't cut it. Substrate WILL be pushed aside by any animal, even if it does provide some protection from the heat of the UTH. Therefore, the product is a hazard to the animal, even when used as directed, as it is intended that the animal be in the cage, with access to the substrate, and is therefore able to move the substrate.

My personal issue with these companies is not that they make these products, but that their packaging fails to provide accurate instructions to consumers on how to SAFELY use them. I don't want them to pull their UTHs off the market, I want the to change their package text to provide proper instructions for pet owners.

I'm glad to see people doing these experiments to prove that the company's claims are deceptive.

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The ambient temp being 80F is arguably irrelevant to the heat of the UTH. If you really want to argue that it makes a difference, I will attempt this same experiment again in a 65-70F room. I am fairly certain that the UTH will still reach 110+.

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The ambiant temperature definitely matters, I agree that even in a much cooler room it will get to an unacceptable temperature though.

But at the same time a lot of cases where somebody is using an unregulated UTH, they also have a heat lamp increasing the local temperatures as well.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The companies that manufacture these products NEED to market them responsibly, and recommend CLEARLY on the packaging that they should not be used without a rheostat or thermostat, if they don't place a rheostat on the cord (which would be the most ethical solution).

Claims that people are not using them 'according to directions' don't cut it. Substrate WILL be pushed aside by any animal, even if it does provide some protection from the heat of the UTH. Therefore, the product is a hazard to the animal, even when used as directed, as it is intended that the animal be in the cage, with access to the substrate, and is therefore able to move the substrate.

My personal issue with these companies is not that they make these products, but that their packaging fails to provide accurate instructions to consumers on how to SAFELY use them. I don't want them to pull their UTHs off the market, I want the to change their package text to provide proper instructions for pet owners.

I'm glad to see people doing these experiments to prove that the company's claims are deceptive.

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The companies that manufacture these products NEED to market them responsibly, and recommend CLEARLY on the packaging that they should not be used without a rheostat or thermostat, if they don't place a rheostat on the cord (which would be the most ethical solution).

Claims that people are not using them 'according to directions' don't cut it. Substrate WILL be pushed aside by any animal, even if it does provide some protection from the heat of the UTH. Therefore, the product is a hazard to the animal, even when used as directed, as it is intended that the animal be in the cage, with access to the substrate, and is therefore able to move the substrate.

My personal issue with these companies is not that they make these products, but that their packaging fails to provide accurate instructions to consumers on how to SAFELY use them. I don't want them to pull their UTHs off the market, I want the to change their package text to provide proper instructions for pet owners.

I'm glad to see people doing these experiments to prove that the company's claims are deceptive.

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X2 so many companies do testing in very specific conditions and then produce tech specs based on un realistic conditions. Look at cars and stated milage do you usually see the projected milage for highway sometimes in my case but not often.

I use a number of UTHs in rooms that are rarely 80º I have always done maxed out tests to see how hot hot is so I can accurately set a failsafe limit. I have always used 97º interior temp as a max for a failsafe (after the primary failed) Most of my failsafes are set between 100-105º not near the max running temp of a UTH exoterra zoomed and ultratherms are all in use and the only one that maxed at 99º interior was the ultratherm, still too hot. NOTHING inside a snake cage should EVER be over 100º for any length of time.

I have the temperature results from this mini-experiment, if anyone is interested in seeing the completed table with every reading. Each one was in the range of 104 and 116. The difference in temperature between the inside and outside was always between 0 and 3.

Substrate addition (1/2 inch of aspen sani-chips) lowered the temperature of the hot spot by 2-3 degrees. The lowest temperature recorded, with the thermometer ON TOP of the substrate layer, was still 104. Once the substrate was added, the outside temperature of the UTH was actually slightly hotter than before (between 113-116F instead of 109-112F).

Again, I don't mean to bash any products or practices from this project. My only message for this is... unless your reptile is suited to rest on temperatures above 100F, it would be a great idea to use a rheostat or thermostat with this type of device. Even with barriers like glass and substrate, a well-ventilated room below 82F, and a functional and properly applied heat pad, temps can exceed 100F. While an animal is not likely to receive horrid burns from them, the temperatures are far above most husbandry recommendations and will cause more problems than solutions. :)