Cage aggression. Wait but Ekans is soo friendly :(

Ok so you all know how I like to brag about how docile and calm Ekans is. Well for the last 2 weeks I have noticed this is becoming not so true. He has never struck at me before. He has S'ed up and rattled his tail before but thats cuz he had blue eyes from going into shed. Well he has been active and grumpy lately. He usually just goes under the paper towels and stays there for a week until feeding time. Well now he is out and about a few times a day and when I go to pick him up he tries to bite me. Im like HUH?!

NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Except ONE thing. I started to feed him IN his tub instead of OUT in another tub. Nothing else has changed. All his temps are still right. Husbandry is right. Feeding is right. The only thing that has changed is me feeding him in tub instead of out of it like I originally had been doing.

So I am going to start feeding him out of his tub again. I am thinking about doing it with my BP too. But I might not since she has been in-tub fed her whole life and I can pick her up from in the tub no problem.

What do you all think?

-reptiliachnids

I think you might be looking into the animals new "aggressiveness" a little too much, you said yourself it hasn't bit you yet. Cage aggression due to feeding in tub is a myth. IMO there is no need to feed outside of the enclosure.

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Originally Posted by Rob

I think you might be looking into the animals new "aggressiveness" a little too much, you said yourself it hasn't bit you yet. Cage aggression due to feeding in tub is a myth. IMO there is no need to feed outside of the enclosure.

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But is it TRULY a myth? I mean. We live in a universe on infinite possibilities. So saying it is a myth in its self is not true. I mean every snake is different WHY cant it be aggression from feeding in the tub. This snake has never had a problem before I started feeding in the tub and the only and I mean THE only thing that has changed, is feeding in the tub.

So I am going to start feeding out of tub again. If his attitude changes. Then cool. If it doesnt then he is going to get more out of cage time then 5 ish minutes a day.

I have 7 snakes, (4 ball pythons, 1 carpet python, 1 dumeril's boa, and 1 desert king snake) All of them are fed in their cage every single time. Not a single one has issues with cage aggression.

Cage aggression is full of flawed logic. If you think that a snake can't tell the difference between a rodent and you then you aren't giving them enough credit. A snake uses multiple senses to identify potential prey... smell (jacobson's organ), heat pits, and eye sight. unless you smell/have the same thermal signature/look like a rodent A snake simply is not going to think that you are food.

now this it not to say that you will never get bit, but if you do it isn't because the snake is trying to eat you. Most likely something that you might not even notice is different. (like with blood pythons if you move something in their cage, many times they won't eat... things that we don't notice they do. I'm not saying that cage aggression is 100% impossible (as you said in our universe there are endless possibilities) but it is improbable.

You are much more likely to get bit feeding a snake in a separate container since you have to directly handle the snake right after eating, to put it back in its cage.

Your plan is a good one, try feeding in a separate container, if it works, great... but honestly I doubt that it will.

Just a thought, are you positive you are feeding enough ?

I had something very similar happen with me and one of my favorite balls. Nothing had changed recently, husbandry the same, feeding the same, all that jazz. Then out of the blue she's snapping at me every time I walk past the tub, she's lunging at me when I go to pick her up, the works.

I was upset to say the least. After three weeks of this, I was complaining to hubby about it, and he asks me have I offered her bigger prey. I of course had not, because I was sure the prey she was eating was adequate. She begged to differ. As soon as I bumped her prey size, she turned into a doll again.

Not saying it is the cause, but it might be something to consider.

Gale

I know it's not the common thought on this forum that feeding in a cage can cause aggression, but with corns that have been fed in their cages, I have seen some where just opening the top causes them to go into full feeding mode. Feed them outside their cage, no aggression. Switch to inside the cage, the aggression starts because they get into feeding mode when the top opens. Switch back, and after awhile, the snake no longer goes into feeding mode when the lid is opened. I have not seen any signs of this with my balls and continue to feed them in their cages, but I will never again allow any of my corns to be fed in their cages. As it is, I spent a few minutes dislodging one of my females off my finger tonight (corn) because I haven't been taking her out except to feed. Corns are generally much more aggressive feeders and when they get into that feeding mode, they don't seem to care if it's a mouse or a gloved finger. That is my mistake for not taking her out more because I've had/seen this problem before. It's one of those things which I think is more species/individual dependent. Balls are not the aggressive feeders that corns are and corns will strike and try to eat anything when they are in a feeding response mode. It doesn't always take scent to do it either unfortunately. On the other side of things, I have a couple who are lazy feeders and I could probably feed them anywhere and they would never have an issue. The only ones I've ever seen to respond like that are those with very strong/aggressive feeding responses.

I feed him the right size prey. He just got moved up to hoppers about 3 weeks ago from fuzzys. So I dont think it is size of prey.

BUT. I was thinking. Could it be that he his hungry but not due to size of food but how OFTEN. I feed him every 7 days do you think I should bump him to every 5?

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Originally Posted by reptiliachnids

Could it be that he his hungry but not due to size of food but how OFTEN. I feed him every 7 days do you think I should bump him to every 5?

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I feed my smaller corn and king every 5 days and my bigger corn (almost 600 grams) every 7 days. I too feed all my snake in their tubs/enclosures and I have yet to have anyone mistake me for food when I reach in to get them.

I would recommend trying to switch back for a few weeks just to see what's going on. Also look at his feeding schedule. From what I've read on other posts, Ekans is young and they tend to make more 'mistakes' about what is food than the older corns do. They also go into feeding mode more easily. Are you trying to take him out to handle him in between feedings? Also, if you're worried about a bite, wear a light glove. The bites don't hurt, but it helps lower the instinct to shake them off which can hurt them when they hit the floor or possibly break teeth. That's precisely why I wear one with my more aggressive feeders. Check to make sure he's also getting large enough meals often enough. I had several go into feeding mode tonight simply because it's been 12 days since they were fed (death in the family or it would have been their usual 7) and that even included my generally docile ones. Corns like to eat and unlike balls aren't real picky about what. Kitai tried eating a 15 lb. dog once and wasn't happy when I dislodged her (long story) and tonight, Astarte had started to work her way towards the tip of my thumb like she would towards the head of a mouse. The glove couldn't have been that tasty but she was sure she was starving and was willing to hit the first thing that moved.

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Originally Posted by reptiliachnids

I feed him the right size prey. He just got moved up to hoppers about 3 weeks ago from fuzzys. So I dont think it is size of prey.

BUT. I was thinking. Could it be that he his hungry but not due to size of food but how OFTEN. I feed him every 7 days do you think I should bump him to every 5?

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7 days is what my babies are on along with adults. I also feed more than the 'Munson plan' recommends but it's never hurt them. How much does Ekans weigh now?

Another question would be how is he acting? When corns are hungry, they are out more. My babies hide for 2-3 days after eating. By day 7, they are all curled up at the front of their enclosures staring me down. I have fed every 5 days and you can if he's showing interest. Just remember that corns can and will get very fat given half a chance. They are little gluttons compared to balls. ;)

He has been really active. He usually is never out, he likes to hide. But lately he has been out a lot. Even trying to get out of his tub which is never used to do. He usually sits on top of his hides periscoping and giving me a staring contest. I always blink first though. He gets me every time.

I am in no way afraid to take a bite. I would rather take a bite from him then my B word of a cat. (who has bitten me waaaaay to many times. But I usually provoke it haha her belly is just to soft to resist)

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Originally Posted by reptiliachnids

I feed him the right size prey. He just got moved up to hoppers about 3 weeks ago from fuzzys. So I dont think it is size of prey.

BUT. I was thinking. Could it be that he his hungry but not due to size of food but how OFTEN. I feed him every 7 days do you think I should bump him to every 5?

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How much does he weigh? Sounds like a hatchling. I feed my babies every 4 days. I move to a 7-8 feeding schedule after 500 g

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Ekans is at about 60 grams

It almost sounds like he's going through a growth spurt so to speak. Some corns seem to have times where they will seem abnormally hungry, gain length, and weight, at a rapid pace. It's generally during the first year that I've seen this while raising up babies. Try switching to every 5 days and maybe giving him 2 hoppers instead of one. He should look noticeably full when he's done eating and mine switch to 2 fuzzies at around the 40-45 gram mark and then hoppers at around 55-60. 1 should be good but you never know. Does he look long and lean or shorter and well rounded?

He is long and lean. He eats like a pig. So I have no doubt he would take 2. He is generally gaining about 7-10 grams a week now.

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Originally Posted by reptiliachnids

He is long and lean. He eats like a pig. So I have no doubt he would take 2. He is generally gaining about 7-10 grams a week now.

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Try 2 then. He's probably just getting more hungry than he was before and so his feeding response is being triggered more easily. It may or may not have to do with being fed in his cage but if he'll eat outside, I'd recommend that until he's a bit older and less prone to trying to eat everything in sight. My adults, I could probably feed in their cage but my big female, I still make sure to bump on the nose when I open her cage and see her start to get excited. She knows the difference now but the babies tend to think with their stomachs. Also wait a bit after he's eaten for his feeding response to die down before moving him back. I generally give mine 30 minutes or so until they get put back because despite the large lumps in their bellies, corns seem to think they can just keep eating.