Feeding Question

So i see alot of people say F/T mice, i was just wondering are there some pros to feeding them live, i've seen alot of cons. For information i only have 1bp and thats all i'll own for now lol.

The only pros are convenience, which is irrelevant for you. Go F/T - I have not found the switch to be as painful as people make it out to be. I haven't fed a live animal yet and probably won't till I have hatchlings.

Had him for 6 weeks ignored every frozen thawed, only tried 1 a week, i put a live in there 20 secs he had it ate.

We haven't had a good old fashoned Live vs. F/T discussion around here in a couple of months...Let the fun begin :D

I see one primary Pro to feeding live in that there are just some snakes that will not eat F/T, and in order to keep these animals thriving, sometimes we have to feed live.

I know there a lot of cons, I think as long as you are watching the mouse and snake when feeding it's ok, in some cases it's required, I have 2 ball pythons and one eats f/t no problem I tried feeding the other one f/t but he wouldn't take it, he went a month without feeding, so I decided to try a live one and within seconds of dropping the mouse in the tub he struck at it


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Do whatever works for you.

If your snake will only take live, then feed it live. If it doesn't care either way, then feed it whatever you are more comfortable with!

I have personally done both. As long as you feed properly (for both live and f/t) then you should have zero problems.

I would attempt pre killed if you can get it to take p/k for 2 straight weeks then attempt f/t. If you cant get her to take p/k then maybe give her a 2 week break from eating before attempting. This worked for me 2/3 of my snakes some just will eat better on live even if you do convert. there are countless threads on how to convert here on bp.net maybe try a search?

So here's my big question that just popped in my head, right now its just mice. How is feeding a snake a live rat, i mean i havent really had to handle a rat, for a mice i just grab it by the tail and dangle it infront of my snake same for a rat?

or you can just put the rat in the tub with the snake and let nature take its course. ;)

There are pros and cons to both F/T and live.
But you should pick which ever method works best for you.

Personally, I feed live because 90% of my snakes refuse f/t and it's just more convenient for me. I'd rather just feed 100% of them live than feed 90% live and thaw out the other 10%.


Feeding live can be safe as long as you take a few precautions.
1) Feed the appropriate sized food. I like smaller and more frequent meals than larger and less often. Weanlings and small rats are safe and harmless(to some extent). They're also not as conscious to danger as an adult would be. Adult rats can pack a nasty bite and are much stronger at fighting back, which is why "smaller and more frequent" is the way to go.
2) Keep the feeder hydrated and well fed. If left alone too long, a hungry feeder is most likely going to go for whatever else is in the enclosure. AKA the snake. This is the reason for most snake killing incidences.
3) Don't leave the feeder in w/ the snake for longer than 30 minutes.

Other than the size difference, feeding a rat isn't much different from feeding a mouse.
Dangling a rat will most likely make the rat panic. If you accidentally drop the rat, he will probably be really defensive and possibly bite your snake.
Just put the rat into the enclosure and let your snake do the work. It keeps the feeder more calm than dangling. Again, I emphasize, smaller meals. This keeps your snake safe.

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Originally Posted by BallJohnny

How is feeding a snake a live rat, i mean i havent really had to handle a rat, for a mice i just grab it by the tail and dangle it infront of my snake same for a rat?

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For the one snake I do have that eats live, I do not dangle the rat (I wouldn't recommend it for mice, either) because I don't want my snake striking at a freaked out rat. I just drop the rat in the tub, and 9 times out of 10, the rat is relaxed and grooming its self or exploring the tub when my snake strikes. A much better situation in my opinion.

Oh, and that 10th time I have yet to account for? That happens when I drop the rat in the tub and it imediatley crawls into the hide currently occupied by my snake? That never goes well for the rat...

Awesome info, im going to go live for now and i'll make sure to take all the safty things to do. I do want to ask the shop i got my snake from told me feed him 1 every 2 weeks, hes 2 1/2 years old, (sorry no scale yet so havent weighted). About 2 1/2 feet long. Think i should do 1 mouse a week?

I personally offer/feed all my snakes once per week. At 2.5 years old, your snake is a young adult, and will probably eat a small rat each week.

I accept my novice rank but until I hit a picky eater myself I'm going to stand behind the notion that any BP can be switched to F/T with due vigilance. The OG I picked up the other day had never eaten F/T. The day after I picked her up I attempted feeding F/T and she struck and coiled off of the tongs and then let it go and ran to her hide. I warmed it back up and stuck it in there and she went over and just opened her mouth and pushed it down - obviously something she had never done before with live meals. This whole process was maybe 5 minutes.

I'll eat my words at some point. For now, I'm stubbornly refusing to believe that there is a snake that would emaciate itself before eating a dead rodent.

Slim, you used the word thrive, which is largely open to individual interpretation. I can't refute that on those grounds.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I'll eat my words at some point. For now, I'm stubbornly refusing to believe that there is a snake that would emaciate itself before eating a dead rodent.

Slim, you used the word thrive, which is largely open to individual interpretation. I can't refute that on those grounds.

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Oh yes, there are a LOT of snakes who will literally starve themselves to death rather than eat a dead rodent. Yes, I said it. Starve. Themselves. To. Death. You've just been lucky so far. Not all snakes are bottomless pits and will eat anything. I've even had some snakes that were so picky they would only eat rodents that were certain species, certain colors, certain genders, etc. If we didn't meet those needs they would starve themselves. We've played the "waiting game" before under the believe that if they are hungry enough they will eat it. It just isn't so.

I would interpret "thriving" as all their needs being met to achieve the best possible quality of life. This would include proper (not just adequate) feeding, housing, etc.

I agree with AK907.

I too believe a snake will starve themselves if picky enough.
I know plenty of other species of animals that will starve themselves so why not snakes?
For example, I'm heavily involved with ferret rescue. Many ferret's imprint on certain foods between birth and 6 months of age. I have seen dozens of ferrets fail to thrive and get so sick from starvation because they refused to eat a new brand of food. And the moment they're given their prefered kibble, those ferrets start eating again. This is the reason why so many ferret owners have to provide a mixed kibble diet to ensure ferrets don't imprint on one kind of food.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Slim, you used the word thrive, which is largely open to individual interpretation.

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Yes, Sir, I agree that the word is not entirely specific.

The reason I used thirve is due to a certain snake and keeper I know who refuses to feed live for any reason. One of her snakes pretty much lives on a subsistance diet and only takes the F/T about 1 in 10 times, despite my pleading with her to either feed this one live or sell me the snake. To me that is living, not thriving.

Especially since I know for a fact that the animal I'm refering to will eat live at the drop of a hat.

I personally prefer to feed f/t simply because to me, it's the more convenient option, and somehow weighs less on my rodent-loving soul.

That said, I've fed plenty of snakes live, and in the future if the need ever presented itself, would definitely again.

Whatever works, honestly, as long as you're being safe about the feedings.

I can't say conclusively that this will work 100% of the time, but I have had 100% success with first feeding a smaller live prey, and following it up immedietely behind with F/T. The snake will simply continue eating the second animal providing you get it in there before they close their mouth around the end of the first.

Just make sure that the total weight of both animals is an acceptable ratio for the snakes overall proportions. You don't want to over feed.

After the first time they should accept F/T on the next feeding. At least I have not experienced a refusal of the F/T. But I guess if I had, I would just try it again. (Rinse and repeat) This can also be applied to the switch from mice to rats.



As many people here have said though, every snake is an individual.

I have heard of the ferret thing. The difference here I would say is that the food item is the same -> if they imprint on a rat they're still getting a rat.

AK - I hear people say that in these threads. I haven't seen a single person confirm your claim (beyond very small hatchling snakes). The closest I've heard is what Slim just described which, while inhumane from a domestic pet standpoint, is sustaining the snake's life. My pewter was 150g and a year old when I bought it and it has no permanent effects and is now gaining weight rapidly.

They have the know-how to sustain life. They have genetics telling them to eat food BY OPPORTUNISTIC MEANS that is millions and millions of years old. They eat dead things in the wild if they need to. In captivity, we simply measure NEED differently. I don't disagree with that notion.

If I ever get a multiple refusal snake I will most definitely feed it live. Here's the thing, though. My 4 snakes are all on F/T now and haven't skipped a meal. If at some point they choose to do that, I'm going to wait until they take F/T again to feed them. Why? They know it's food and they know what to do. They're not THAT stupid.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I have heard of the ferret thing. The difference here I would say is that the food item is the same -> if they imprint on a rat they're still getting a rat.

AK - I hear people say that in these threads. I haven't seen a single person confirm your claim (beyond very small hatchling snakes). The closest I've heard is what Slim just described which, while inhumane from a domestic pet standpoint, is sustaining the snake's life. My pewter was 150g and a year old when I bought it and it has no permanent effects and is now gaining weight rapidly.

They have the know-how to sustain life. They have genetics telling them to eat food BY OPPORTUNISTIC MEANS that is millions and millions of years old. They eat dead things in the wild if they need to. In captivity, we simply measure NEED differently. I don't disagree with that notion.

If I ever get a multiple refusal snake I will most definitely feed it live. Here's the thing, though. My 4 snakes are all on F/T now and haven't skipped a meal. If at some point they choose to do that, I'm going to wait until they take F/T again to feed them. Why? They know it's food and they know what to do. They're not THAT stupid.

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The point I was making with the ferret is that animals will starve themselves to death. To say animals won't is an ignorant statement.

Please show me your sources that Wild ball pythons scavenge already dead prey.

I think if a snake takes f/t regularly at one point and goes off feed for whatever reason(breeding/winter/whatever), you have a good chance that it will eat f/t again. However, what about a snake who has never encountered f/t? What if they refuse time and time again. Will you keep trying f/t and only f/t. Let me know how that snake fairs physically if it keeps refusing food based on food type while it will clearly take live. Who knows how long a snake can refuse a meal just because it only eats live and you want to feed it f/t. You've been lucky so far that your own personal snakes have been so easy to switch.

Not feeding your pet because it refuses food based on food type is poor keeping and almost cruel. You're physically offering food. But thats not feeding. The snake is not eating.Yes snakes can last a long time without feeding. Days, weeks, months, up to year. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't eat if it will willingly eat something else immediately.
In my opinion, as pet owners, it is our duty to do what's best for the animal regardless of personal preference. And I don't think starving a snake to take f/t out of desperation and starvation is one of them.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I have heard of the ferret thing. The difference here I would say is that the food item is the same -> if they imprint on a rat they're still getting a rat.

AK - I hear people say that in these threads. I haven't seen a single person confirm your claim (beyond very small hatchling snakes). The closest I've heard is what Slim just described which, while inhumane from a domestic pet standpoint, is sustaining the snake's life. My pewter was 150g and a year old when I bought it and it has no permanent effects and is now gaining weight rapidly.

They have the know-how to sustain life. They have genetics telling them to eat food BY OPPORTUNISTIC MEANS that is millions and millions of years old. They eat dead things in the wild if they need to. In captivity, we simply measure NEED differently. I don't disagree with that notion.

If I ever get a multiple refusal snake I will most definitely feed it live. Here's the thing, though. My 4 snakes are all on F/T now and haven't skipped a meal. If at some point they choose to do that, I'm going to wait until they take F/T again to feed them. Why? They know it's food and they know what to do. They're not THAT stupid.

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I don't have a problem with f/t if your snake willingly takes it, but I most definitely have seen cases of them starving themselves to death. I worked in pet care for a certain major pet store chain that refused to feed live. During my two years there I saw several ball pythons who starved themselves to death because they refused the f/t they were offered. Sure some took f/t without an issue or with a little persuasion on our part, but some simply refused and died because of it. We aren't talking a quick death, either. We're talking months and months of slowly wasting away. Can I back these up with pictures and vet records? No, because these weren't my animals, but I know what I saw. Now other species of snakes seem to have a little more brains in their skulls and will usually switch very readily (insert most colubrids). Had a few of those that were picky, but shortly after almost always switched without an issue. Your claim that ALL can be changed might hold a little water with other species such as corns and kings, but not with all species.

I tried playing hardball with a few of our own animals as well. We have an amazon tree boa that will only eat live, and they aren't exactly known for being picky eaters. I tried waiting her out once for months trying to get her on f/t because we don't always have live feeders in her size. Well it came down to us having to offer her live and making special exceptions to always have live her size on hand because she will NOT eat f/t.

A similar story would be a ball python we had that would only eat all white female mice. Put a brown mouse in there, she would turn her nose up at it. Put a male mouse in there. Nope. Put an all white female rat in there. Negative. Put the tastiest looking african soft fur you ever saw in there. Would not even look at it. Put an all white female mouse in there. History and begging for seconds.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

The point I was making with the ferret is that animals will starve themselves to death. To say animals won't is an ignorant statement.

Please show me your sources that Wild ball pythons scavenge already dead prey.

I think if a snake takes f/t regularly at one point and goes off feed for whatever reason(breeding/winter/whatever), you have a good chance that it will eat f/t again. However, what about a snake who has never encountered f/t? What if they refuse time and time again. Will you keep trying f/t and only f/t. Let me know how that snake fairs physically if it keeps refusing food based on food type while it will clearly take live. Who knows how long a snake can refuse a meal just because it only eats live and you want to feed it f/t. You've been lucky so far that your own personal snakes have been so easy to switch.

Not feeding your pet because it refuses food based on food type is poor keeping and almost cruel. You're physically offering food. But thats not feeding. The snake is not eating.Yes snakes can last a long time without feeding. Days, weeks, months, up to year. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't eat if it will willingly eat something else immediately.
In my opinion, as pet owners, it is our duty to do what's best for the animal regardless of personal preference. And I don't think starving a snake to take f/t out of desperation and starvation is one of them.

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I agree with you 100%! :gj:

Like I said above, I don't have a problem with f/t if your snake will willingly take it, but I flat out refuse to force the switch on any animal if it puts them in harms way and affects their quality of life. To do so is outright cruelty in my opinion. We are responsible for their well being and we owe it to them meet their needs, even if it isn't what we want.

It's about

Being knowledgeable regarding your choices.

Feeding responsibly.

Feeding what work for you and your snakes

Feeding what is most convenient.

When my collection was under 10 snakes I was feeding F/T exclusively, at the time it was not worth the hassle to deal with live rodents whether it was having to go and buy them weekly or start breeding, so I was buying rats in bulk and always had what I needed.

Of course the collection grew and I started hatching snakes therefore I started to feel the need to start breeding my own feeders.

Feeding live is fast and convenient and anything uneaten goes back to their enclosures rather than the trash if I was feeding F/T

There are still some animal that I feed F/T, my hognose (so I don't keep too many mice for too long), my blood who eat all the retired rats I store in my freezer, and my bulls and hondos who eats whatever surplus I need gone, and very few BP.

This way I feed what is convenient but also never have a surplus of animals that are too large to be fed as they are euthanized and froze.

Anyway find what works for you and what you are comfortable with. :gj:

Wow wasn't kidding when you said it would be a debate lol. Ya im ok with feeding him live, i've raised lizards(chinese water dragons) feed them live. I have nothing agaisnt mice just they are food for my favroit type of animal lol. Going to stick with live, probably going to try feeding him next week to. Seems alot of people here say a 2 1/2 should probably eat once every week.

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Originally Posted by BallJohnny

Wow wasn't kidding when you said it would be a debate lol. Ya im ok with feeding him live, i've raised lizards(chinese water dragons) feed them live. I have nothing agaisnt mice just they are food for my favroit type of animal lol. Going to stick with live, probably going to try feeding him next week to. Seems alot of people here say a 2 1/2 should probably eat once every week.

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Yup, the general consensus is 10-15% of your snakes body weight every 5-7 days. As they get older you can cut back a bit because their metabolisms slow down.

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Originally Posted by BallJohnny

Seems alot of people here say a 2 1/2 should probably eat once every week.

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If it's a male a small rat 55/65 grams once a week will be more than enough.

If it's a female a small to medium rat 55/125 grams (depending on her current size) once a week will be enough.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

The point I was making with the ferret is that animals will starve themselves to death. To say animals won't is an ignorant statement.

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Ferrets aren't really particularly similar to their natural counterparts. They've been bred to be... well... slow. I still wouldn't disagree with what you said here except that my statement is ignorant. I'm quite well informed and started my response by saying I was aware of what you are talking about. Slop and kibble are not the same as offering a ferret a live vs dead snake :)

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Please show me your sources that Wild ball pythons scavenge already dead prey.

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I'm at work and I'm not going to start linking internet junk, but do some research on what an opportunistic feeder or hunter is. It's a biology term and I have read in enough places that ball pythons are opportunistic to believe it. Someone feel free to correct me with their own facts if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I think if a snake takes f/t regularly at one point and goes off feed for whatever reason(breeding/winter/whatever), you have a good chance that it will eat f/t again. However, what about a snake who has never encountered f/t? What if they refuse time and time again. Will you keep trying f/t and only f/t.

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You quoted me in this response. I addressed this very clearly. Let me know if there are still questions after you read what I wrote and you quoted.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Let me know how that snake fairs physically if it keeps refusing food based on food type while it will clearly take live.

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You guys chatted? Just because you can trigger the snake's instinct better with a live animal, doesn't mean it's hungry. If you're tricking a snake into eating, you're essentially force feeding.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Who knows how long a snake can refuse a meal just because it only eats live and you want to feed it f/t.

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Indeed. That is the question I believe I have asked multiple times. I'm asking for someone with direct experience to describe it to me.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

You've been lucky so far that your own personal snakes have been so easy to switch.

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I know, like I said I am willing to accept that I'm coming from a limited set of knowledge and experience. I'm only using facts to support myself, though, and labeling the rest as speculation.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Not feeding your pet because it refuses food based on food type is poor keeping and almost cruel. You're physically offering food. But thats not feeding. The snake is not eating.Yes snakes can last a long time without feeding. Days, weeks, months, up to year. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't eat if it will willingly eat something else immediately.

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I never advocated starving an animal. Would you advocate obesity? These are a species that choose with great regularity to refuse all meal types for periods of up to 6 months or more. As long as you offer food, it's not cruelty, it's feeding. Like I said in the response you quoted, if I had multiple refusals I would probably try live. That doesn't mean 'the snake WON'T eat F/T' and it also doesn't mean I've given up on switching it.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

In my opinion, as pet owners, it is our duty to do what's best for the animal regardless of personal preference.

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Couldn't agree more. The two are not mutually exclusive, though.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

And I don't think starving a snake to take f/t out of desperation and starvation is one of them.

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I hope you didn't take desperation and starvation out of anything I wrote, for your own sake.



In the wild, these animals take (someone correct me if I'm wrong) 3 - 5 or more years to reach adult size. We stimulate their feeding response in an extremely controlled environment to force fast growth (something that has negative side-effects on a many species) and get them to adult size in a year and a half.

My mom worked for 10 years doing neuro-pharmacology to try to understand and develop drugs to deal with obesity. When you give a rat a lever to feed itself tasty treats, guess what it does? It becomes unhealthy. Give it kibble that, while it is not nearly as exciting to the rat, will sustain it. Guess what it does? Throttles its feeding. In the wild, mice and rats are maybe not as common as you might think, especially when you're a snake out in the big world looking for them. They've evolved to have a strong feeding response when the OPPORTUNITY presents itself to them. Plopping the largest possible prey item in close quarters with the snake on a set schedule isn't necessarily what caused these animals to hang around after the dinosaurs went extinct?

When my kid refuses his vegetables, I'm not going to fly out to McDonald's to get them a Happy Meal simply because they more willingly accept it.

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Originally Posted by AK907

I agree with you 100%! :gj:

Like I said above, I don't have a problem with f/t if your snake will willingly take it, but I flat out refuse to force the switch on any animal if it puts them in harms way and affects their quality of life. To do so is outright cruelty in my opinion. We are responsible for their well being and we owe it to them meet their needs, even if it isn't what we want.

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I never claimed to advocate putting them in harms way or reducing their quality of life. I asked for someone to show evidence that only offering food that doesn't trigger an immediate feeding response would eventually put them in harms way or reduces their quality of life. They aren't having fun eating. They don't wait for Friday night for a pizza with 5 meat toppings like I do. It's a biological function. 'Quality of life' for a snake means survival and minimal discomfort (discomfort which only serves to drive a response). Obesity is killing a lot of humans in this country. I heard it's harmful for snakes, too! I haven't seen a lot of wild caught animals, but I bet they look quite a bit different than the snakes in most people's racks (morphs aside, lol).

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I never claimed to advocate putting them in harms way or reducing their quality of life. I asked for someone to show evidence that only offering food that doesn't trigger an immediate feeding response would eventually put them in harms way or reduces their quality of life. They aren't having fun eating. They don't wait for Friday night for a pizza with 5 meat toppings like I do. It's a biological function. 'Quality of life' for a snake means survival and minimal discomfort (discomfort which only serves to drive a response). Obesity is killing a lot of humans in this country. I heard it's harmful for snakes, too! I haven't seen a lot of wild caught animals, but I bet they look quite a bit different than the snakes in most people's racks (morphs aside, lol).

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Ok. I still believe your logic is flawed, but to each their own.

I don't see proper feeding techniques being a hindrance to the well being of a snake. I do, however, see sporadic and/or maintenance feeding being detrimental to their health. It may not be immediately apparent other than weight loss. Guess that is why with proper care captive lifespans are generally much higher with most animals. Please remember, I'm not talking down on proper f/t feeding where the snake eats on a regular basis, but those who refuse to feed live and only feed f/t with mixed results (ie only eats part of the time or never) with little concern for the fact that the animal is malnourished are what concern me.

Here are a pastel and a pin that have been properly fed, however I don't believe either has to worry about obesity just yet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...t/SANY0621.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...instripe-1.jpg

Here is a spider that was owned by someone who only offered f/t and this snake only ate maybe 1 out of every 5 feedings. Not a healthy looking animal if you ask me. After rescuing him we offered live. He became one of our best eaters and the only time he ever skipped a meal was while he was breeding.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...Spiderball.jpg

You won't find me arguing any of that :P

I'm just questioning whether or not it's possible to switch stubborn animals. I don't have pics because the hosting site is blocked at work, but I'm sure the spider looks unhealthy. My response to that would simply be loosely founded denial that offering F/T vs. live was the only variable there. Maybe all of the rest of your husbandry was right, so the snake decided it was time to eat? Have YOU tried F/T?

Anyway, I just hope my point isn't being overlooked because I'm not talking about simply starving an animal that doesn't readily make the change and I'm not talking about risking the health of the animal for the sake of the change.

Someone makes a post: "My bp won't eat"

The first reply would be something like "hi, what are your temps, enclosure, substrate, species of prey, size of prey, humidity, weight of snake vs. age, live or f/t, sickness, sheds, etc."

For me, I'd look at all of those factors in great detail before landing on "some snakes, like yours, simply WON'T eat F/T."

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Have YOU tried F/T?

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Oh absolutely, but our results with balls have been mixed. Some will, some 100% will not regardless of husbandry. We have been breeding our own feeders for the past couple years though, so live is more convenient for us. I couldn't imagine trying to feed 30 odd balls f/t every week just to have half of them turn their noses up at it. If one refuses a live rat, well he just gets tossed back in his tub for next week. No harm, no foul, no waste.

With that, we feed our corns f/t and they are consistent eaters, but you can't really compare the feeding response of most corns to most balls. You could put a piece of cold mouse scented tofu in their tubs and they would eat it! :D

My 2 year old female currently refuses to eat anything other than gerbils. I gave her one at the suggestion of a pet store employee to break a 6 month hunger strike and now I can't get her to eat anything else(live or FT) and I've tried just about everything imaginable(only thing left besides force feeding directly is attempting to follow up a gerbil with a rat).

Scenting tricks don't work, and I've been holding back on giving her a gerbil for about a month now(continuing to offer live mice since I had more luck with mice than rats in the past).

So given that I can't even get my girl to take live or FT mice/rats, I can easily see where some snakes will never go to FT, especially once they've had live. Sometimes it seems they get a taste of something better and they'll never go back.

I feel like the debate is going no where. I'm pretty sure I've had the same one w/ you before on a different thread MrLang.
The argument sounds fairly familiar.



I've said my thoughts. You've said yours. And I don't think either of us will budge from our opinions.
I'll still feed my snakes live because I truly believe the majority of them won't switch to f/t. I already have some picky eaters that barely take live half the time. I'm lucky those individuals even eat.

If f/t works for you. Great. Live works for me. That's great too.


Random note:
Its funny because I have a single ferret who will not eat f/t prey only fresh(pre-killed/live). My other two will eat any sort of prey (frozen, pre-killed, live, whatever), but the odd one just doesn't want anything to do w/ frozen. Maybe frozen smells funky to her? Or perhaps the texture is different? I really don't know. This has nothing to do w/ snakes, but thought it was interesting to add anyway.

I think it is a little silly to compare any wild feeding habits of ball pythons with captive feeding habits. I also think you can't compare McDonalds and Vegetables to Live and F/T.

We keep ball pythons in a very controlled environment. An environment to maximize their health and lifespan. This environment is nothing like their wild environment. Throw any captive ball python in the wild and I would expect it to not live very long. Even with its natural instinct, it has no idea how to live in an environment outside the captive one.

A wild ball python might take up to 5 years to reach adulthood, but this is because of all the natural factors that come into play regarding its eating and drinking habits, shelter, and the elements/other animals. Since these factors are not present in a captive environment, you can't say that feeding "the biggest" prey item once a week to reach adulthood at a year and a half old is "unhealthy" or negative in any way. We are simply providing them with all the necessary components to live a long and healthy life free from harm.

Do I think any ball python can be switched to F/T? No. The only reason why I think that is because each snake is completely different. You just can't make a blanket statement like that.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

You just can't make a blanket statement like that.

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Most compelling argument yet. At the end of the day I'm not totally hard set in my beliefs, I just don't have a problem playing devil's advocate on this because I think people far too often give up too quickly or advise new keepers to try live too quickly, before other avenues are explored. My only point about wild snakes is that letting the snake miss a COUPLE of feedings in attempts to get it to switch is not going to end its life.

My vegetable and McDonald's analogy only served to suggest a bit more vigilance from people to switch and I like it because certainly I would not compromise the health of my child in that process. I'm sticking with it.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Most compelling argument yet. At the end of the day I'm not totally hard set in my beliefs, I just don't have a problem playing devil's advocate on this because I think people far too often give up too quickly or advise new keepers to try live too quickly, before other avenues are explored. My only point about wild snakes is that letting the snake miss a COUPLE of feedings in attempts to get it to switch is not going to end its life.

My vegetable and McDonald's analogy only served to suggest a bit more vigilance from people to switch and I like it because certainly I would not compromise the health of my child in that process. I'm sticking with it.

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For inexperienced keepers, sometimes jumping to live is just easier for them. Sure we could sit and explain various methods for enticing a BP to eat, but none of the methods are guaranteed and it might take weeks to see results. Inexperienced keepers are often overly worried about their snakes not eating so getting them to eat ASAP is a priority for them. If it means feeding live at the next feeding, then so be it.

It all just comes down to preference. Neither answer is right or wrong. Do what works for you and keeps your animals healthy!

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I have heard of the ferret thing. The difference here I would say is that the food item is the same -> if they imprint on a rat they're still getting a rat.

AK - I hear people say that in these threads. I haven't seen a single person confirm your claim (beyond very small hatchling snakes). The closest I've heard is what Slim just described which, while inhumane from a domestic pet standpoint, is sustaining the snake's life. My pewter was 150g and a year old when I bought it and it has no permanent effects and is now gaining weight rapidly.

They have the know-how to sustain life. They have genetics telling them to eat food BY OPPORTUNISTIC MEANS that is millions and millions of years old. They eat dead things in the wild if they need to. In captivity, we simply measure NEED differently. I don't disagree with that notion.

If I ever get a multiple refusal snake I will most definitely feed it live. Here's the thing, though. My 4 snakes are all on F/T now and haven't skipped a meal. If at some point they choose to do that, I'm going to wait until they take F/T again to feed them. Why? They know it's food and they know what to do. They're not THAT stupid.

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I've never seen this documented. Not saying that it's not true - I've just never personally seen any credible writings about that. Can you point me in the right direction?