I need advice on thermostat probe placement

I just finished my first rack system about a week ago, but the temperatures of the flexwatt are a bit off, not dangerous, but different than what I set it at. I am using to piece of crap zilla thermostats and will be buying a herpstat 2 next month with the dual probe set up. I just wanted to know what people here have to say about probe placement. Right now I have two zilla themostats, one with a probe on the top shelf on my first strip of 3" wide flexwatt and one with a probe on the bottom shelf on my 2nd strip of 3" wide flex watt. I'm wondering if the temps are off a bitt because I am using two strips of flex watt, or if its due to my probe placement. Any advice on probe placement or on regulating two strips of flex watt would be greatly apreciated. When I get the herpstat 2 I want to set it up right the first time and save my self from all this hassel.

The collection of
Rachelle/shelliebear &
I Max/DeathMetalMax

1.0 Ringer bp <name="Nurgz"/>
1.0 Dark wild type/Dinker bp <name="CleoMantra"/>
0.1 Bright wild type/Dinker bp<name="Madison"/>
1.0 Butter motley corn <name="Schiztz"/>
0.1 Ultramel motley corn <name="Cheesecake"/>

How many shelves is the rack?

Do both strips of Flexwatt heat all of the tubs? or does one heat the bottom tubs, and the second heat the top?

thermostat should be used to regulate temp of tub, not the temp of the flexwatt. Flexwatt should be regulated on its own.

If this is your flexwatt (imagine this over an area of a foot or 100 feet, all the same principle)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but you place the probe in the center
..............................................O................................. ............
The flexwatt can still fail here
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.............XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

The probe is only guaranteeing that ONE tiny area of the flexwatt is safe and within set temperature. Once a fire gets ignited, turning off the thermostat will not stop it.

Fire requires oxygen (air in room), fuel( and combustible material eg: tub rack etc) and ignition source (eg: heat or spark).

What happens...unregulated flexwatt absorbs voltage spikes found in common electrical output. Over time, these voltage spikes cause burns to develop in the flexwatt. These burn marks become shorts (areas where a void develops and the current must "jump" over void). These shorts become sparks. These sparks become your ignition source.

Regulate your flexwatt to below 92 degrees with a dimmer switch. Use the thermostat to control the max temp of the tub. (I prefer regulating the cold side)

If you are using the proper amount of flexwatt per sqauare inch of your tub in conjunction to the ambient temp of your room, the flexwatt will turn on and off periodically and not just remain a constant "on" position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

thermostat should be used to regulate temp of tub, not the temp of the flexwatt. Flexwatt should be regulated on its own.

If this is your flexwatt (imagine this over an area of a foot or 100 feet, all the same principle)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but you place the probe in the center
..............................................O................................. ............
The flexwatt can still fail here
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.............XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

The probe is only guaranteeing that ONE tiny area of the flexwatt is safe and within set temperature. Once a fire gets ignited, turning off the thermostat will not stop it.

Fire requires oxygen (air in room), fuel( and combustible material eg: tub rack etc) and ignition source (eg: heat or spark).

What happens...unregulated flexwatt absorbs voltage spikes found in common electrical output. Over time, these voltage spikes cause burns to develop in the flexwatt. These burn marks become shorts (areas where a void develops and the current must "jump" over void). These shorts become sparks. These sparks become your ignition source.

Regulate your flexwatt to below 92 degrees with a dimmer switch. Use the thermostat to control the max temp of the tub. (I prefer regulating the cold side)

If you are using the proper amount of flexwatt per sqauare inch of your tub in conjunction to the ambient temp of your room, the flexwatt will turn on and off periodically and not just remain a constant "on" position.

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.....Umm what? :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

thermostat should be used to regulate temp of tub, not the temp of the flexwatt. Flexwatt should be regulated on its own.

If this is your flexwatt (imagine this over an area of a foot or 100 feet, all the same principle)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but you place the probe in the center
..............................................O................................. ............
The flexwatt can still fail here
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.............XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

The probe is only guaranteeing that ONE tiny area of the flexwatt is safe and within set temperature. Once a fire gets ignited, turning off the thermostat will not stop it.

Fire requires oxygen (air in room), fuel( and combustible material eg: tub rack etc) and ignition source (eg: heat or spark).

What happens...unregulated flexwatt absorbs voltage spikes found in common electrical output. Over time, these voltage spikes cause burns to develop in the flexwatt. These burn marks become shorts (areas where a void develops and the current must "jump" over void). These shorts become sparks. These sparks become your ignition source.

Regulate your flexwatt to below 92 degrees with a dimmer switch. Use the thermostat to control the max temp of the tub. (I prefer regulating the cold side)

If you are using the proper amount of flexwatt per sqauare inch of your tub in conjunction to the ambient temp of your room, the flexwatt will turn on and off periodically and not just remain a constant "on" position.

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Can you back the claim up with something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

How many shelves is the rack?

Do both strips of Flexwatt heat all of the tubs? or does one heat the bottom tubs, and the second heat the top?

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Both strips heat the entire rack. The rack is 6 shelves high and the two strips of flex watt snake up each shelf. I see you seem a bit skeptical of the post in regards to placing the probes in the tub and I'm new to rack systems, can you explain what you think would be the best way of going about probe placement in my setup. Thanks.

Typically with racks probes are placed on the top of or under the flexwatt. There is a huge amount of chance for the probe to be puled free of the flexwatt and this often causes over heating. The probe MUST be secure. The problem with probes in tubs, the tub needs to move and the probe must not move. The probe would also need to return to the same place again a hard task with a moving probe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

thermostat should be used to regulate temp of tub, not the temp of the flexwatt. Flexwatt should be regulated on its own.

If this is your flexwatt (imagine this over an area of a foot or 100 feet, all the same principle)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but you place the probe in the center
..............................................O................................. ............
The flexwatt can still fail here
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.............XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

The probe is only guaranteeing that ONE tiny area of the flexwatt is safe and within set temperature. Once a fire gets ignited, turning off the thermostat will not stop it.

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I can see where your coming from. I've noticed variations in temperature throughout about a foot of flex watt in my setup. The spot with the Probe stays at about 88-90 F and other parts away from it get 95-101. So I've had to set the temp on the thermostat to about 85 F just so the parts of flex watt without the probe wouldn't go above 92 F.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathMetalMax

Both strips heat the entire rack. The rack is 6 shelves high and the two strips of flex watt snake up each shelf. I see you seem a bit skeptical of the post in regards to placing the probes in the tub and I'm new to rack systems, can you explain what you think would be the best way of going about probe placement in my setup. Thanks.

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ok, what i would do is place both probes on the center shelf. The top and bottom of the rack will always be different temperatures since heat rises. if you have a probe at the top and one at the bottom with flexwatt that goes through all of the levels you will have very inconsistent temps. I would try to get the middle shelf to 90 degrees. this allows the top of the rack to be warmer 92ish, and the bottom to be cooler 88ish while still being in the ideal range of 88-92 degrees.

My issue isn't putting the probe in the tub, that is a viable option. No my issue is the whole dimmer shorting out thing.

Thanks for the advice I will give that a try. Thanks for clearing that up.

The collection of
Rachelle/shelliebear &
I Max/DeathMetalMax

1.0 Ringer bp <name="Nurgz"/>
1.0 Dark wild type/Dinker bp <name="CleoMantra"/>
0.1 Bright wild type/Dinker bp<name="Madison"/>
1.0 Butter motley corn <name="Schiztz"/>
0.1 Ultramel motley corn <name="Cheesecake"/>

As far as the flex watt catching fire, plug it into a surge protector. A real one now a power strip labelled as one. This will prevent large spikes from running through your heat tape. It can handle small spikes as long as your not at it's maximum capacity. If the regular current of electricity was an issue with heat tape we would of heard of many fires being directly linked to it by now.

I place my probe exactly on my middle shelf of the rack and right in the middle of the flexwatt.
Don't tape the probe head itself down as the tape can trap heat and cause inaccurate readings. And I wouldn't put the thermostat probe into a tub either. You risk the snake moving it or getting water/urine on it, which can cause inaccurate readings to the thermostat and spikes in the temperature.

Temperature reading on the thermostat may differ from actual flexwatt temps. For me, my flexwatt reads exactly 100, my thermostat is set to 91, and my tubs range 88-92.

My rack varies, top being warmest and bottom being coolest. But all tubs are within a temp range of 88-92.



Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisS

As far as the flex watt catching fire, plug it into a surge protector. A real one now a power strip labelled as one. This will prevent large spikes from running through your heat tape. It can handle small spikes as long as your not at it's maximum capacity. If the regular current of electricity was an issue with heat tape we would of heard of many fires being directly linked to it by now.

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you don't need huge surges to burn flexwatt over time. If surge protectors were so great, electronics guys wouldn't have moved onto power conditioners.

Many failures have been recorded.

So by placing the probe directly on the heat tape, how often does your thermostat turn on and off? Depending on ambient temp of the room, the thermostat could be flickering on and off at a high rate. Flickering on and off of thermostats can cause failure by over working them. i've seen many cheaper thermostats that fail in the "on" position. When this happens, your heat tape runs at full voltage, it is now unregulated and uncontrolled. I have a friend who had exactly this happen to the point he fried the snake. Yes it died.

Dimmer switches can fail. If they fail, the circuit is interrupted and power is then lost. No shorts to worry about. So worst scenario, the snake falls to room temperature if setup my way. Do it the other way, thermostat fails in "on" position, flexwatt overheats,and fire occurs. Not worth the risk over lacking the use of a dimmer switch.

I tape my probe on the center shelf in the center of the flexwatt. I only tape the back of it closest to the cord itself and the very tip of the probe. I have my VE200 set at 98 and it keeps my hotspot in the tub at about 91.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

So by placing the probe directly on the heat tape, how often does your thermostat turn on and off? Depending on ambient temp of the room, the thermostat could be flickering on and off at a high rate. Flickering on and off of thermostats can cause failure by over working them. i've seen many cheaper thermostats that fail in the "on" position. When this happens, your heat tape runs at full voltage, it is now unregulated and uncontrolled. I have a friend who had exactly this happen to the point he fried the snake. Yes it died.

Dimmer switches can fail. If they fail, the circuit is interrupted and power is then lost. No shorts to worry about. So worst scenario, the snake falls to room temperature if setup my way. Do it the other way, thermostat fails in "on" position, flexwatt overheats,and fire occurs. Not worth the risk over lacking the use of a dimmer switch.

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I get what you are saying but dimmers in the set up do not allow the t-stat to do its job. If the room temp drop the dimmer will not allow the heater to get to a temp warm enough to provide adequate heat. I agree a fail safe is not an optional tool. Especially in racks too many moving bits around the probe. But I disagree that a dimmer is the way to do so. I would use a second t-stat the chances of both failing and both failing open are so long to be not worth discussing.

If that is added to the modern T-stats that have over and under and secondary error finding circuits those odds are even farther away. Rheostats also do not kill the power they just restrict it. Your first comment they will not prevent a fire as power is still running a failsafe t-stat stops the power in the event of over load.

My safety systems are simple GFCI outlets in the snake room, Smoke alarm, Tstat's backed by failsafe t stats, monthly inspections of all connections and flexwatt panels. Oh there is also a fire extinguisher in the room too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I get what you are saying but dimmers in the set up do not allow the t-stat to do its job. If the room temp drop the dimmer will not allow the heater to get to a temp warm enough to provide adequate heat. I agree a fail safe is not an optional tool. Especially in racks too many moving bits around the probe. But I disagree that a dimmer is the way to do so. I would use a second t-stat the chances of both failing and both failing open are so long to be not worth discussing.

If that is added to the modern T-stats that have over and under and secondary error finding circuits those odds are even farther away. Rheostats also do not kill the power they just restrict it. Your first comment they will not prevent a fire as power is still running a failsafe t-stat stops the power in the event of over load.

My safety systems are simple GFCI outlets in the snake room, Smoke alarm, Tstat's backed by failsafe t stats, monthly inspections of all connections and flexwatt panels. Oh there is also a fire extinguisher in the room too.

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A dimmer does not restrict the thermostat from doing its job. IF your flexwatt can not raise the temp of your tub to the temp you desire while having it restricted to 92 degrees, then you have not selected the appropriate flex watt for your application. Dimmer is there to keep the tape from exceeding 92 degrees. Thermostats are there to turn the tape on and off thus allowing the temps to raise to 92 degrees. If you need temps above 92 degrees, you probably shouldn't be using flexwatt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

So by placing the probe directly on the heat tape, how often does your thermostat turn on and off? Depending on ambient temp of the room, the thermostat could be flickering on and off at a high rate. Flickering on and off of thermostats can cause failure by over working them. i've seen many cheaper thermostats that fail in the "on" position. When this happens, your heat tape runs at full voltage, it is now unregulated and uncontrolled. I have a friend who had exactly this happen to the point he fried the snake. Yes it died.

Dimmer switches can fail. If they fail, the circuit is interrupted and power is then lost. No shorts to worry about. So worst scenario, the snake falls to room temperature if setup my way. Do it the other way, thermostat fails in "on" position, flexwatt overheats,and fire occurs. Not worth the risk over lacking the use of a dimmer switch.

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Here's how I did it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FG9mdcdu-E&feature=plcp

Your elaborate setup still exceeds manufacturers recomendations thus puts you at risk for shorts and burns.:rofl:the odds of your probe reading the highest point at 104 is very unlikely. I am betting at 104, you have hot spots well over 120 degrees.

If the main (ie: the cheaper) thermostat fails in off position, your rack goes cold.

I can accomplish the exact same thing for $35.

You spent well over $100 to gain nothing.

I am really not understanding why people need to make this so difficult/expensive?

If the main (ie: the cheaper) thermostat fails in off position, your rack goes cold.
Well the cheaper one is NOT the main thermostat, the VE 200 is. I used the cheaper one for at least a year and 104 reading would have my hot spot at about 96 and it is the backup. The rack doesn't go cold if that happens because it will turn back on once the temp on the probe of that particular ones. If the temp goes down 3 degrees it turns back on.

I can accomplish the exact same thing for $35.
It only cost me $35 but I preferrred the proportional one.

You spent well over $100 to gain nothing.
I gained a lot since the VE200 keeps the temps at a constant temp within a .1 degree instead a constant on/off. Plus I don't consider $115 well over $100.

I am really not understanding why people need to make this so difficult/expensive?
It wasn't difficult at all it was a choice I made and am really happy with. I had the hydrofarm one anyway so I wanted to use it

sigh...

120v-> hydrofarm-> Ve200->rack

Correct?

That makes the hydrofarm the main unit. Its acting just like a main breaker in your electrical panel. We're meaning the same thing just tracing the route in opposite directions.

the hydrofarm will cost $40 to replace
the ve200 will cost $115 to replace....

That's 155...which is well over $100 as stated.


maintaining .1 degree even in an incubator is overboard....in a cage its moot. a cheap thermostat will hold +/- 2 degrees. That's fine for a cage.


glad you recycled :salute:

and if you guys are so worried about the probe moving or getting fecal matter on the probe....attach it to the ceiling of the cold end.

I can't believe people spend money on precision measuring equipment and controls only to guess and hope they work properly.:mad::rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

sigh...

120v-> hydrofarm-> Ve200->rack

Correct?

sigh...Wrong! Flexwatt(rack) ->VE200->Hydrofarm->wall outlet. Therefore VE200 is main

That's 155...which is well over $100 as stated.
You are correct but the Hydrofarm was bought year ago and the VE200 was recent purchase. I just call it upgrading. I trust the VE more than the Hydrofarm


maintaining .1 degree even in an incubator is overboard....in a cage its moot. a cheap thermostat will hold +/- 2 degrees. That's fine for a cage.
+/- 2 degrees??? My VE200 will read 98 all the time and the Hydrofarm will read up to 102

glad you recycled :salute:
Just doing my part. Peace out

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SUPER SIGH AGAIN

120v-> hydrofarm-> Ve200->rack

Flexwatt(rack) ->VE200->Hydrofarm->wall outlet. Therefore VE200 is main

You follow the path of power supply, not draw.

wall outlet->Hydrofarm->VE200->Flexwatt(rack)

Therefore your Hydrofarm is your main, just like in a circuit panel your MAIN breaker is the closest to the incoming power source.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

SUPER SIGH AGAIN

120v-> hydrofarm-> Ve200->rack

Flexwatt(rack) ->VE200->Hydrofarm->wall outlet. Therefore VE200 is main

You follow the path of power supply, not draw.

wall outlet->Hydrofarm->VE200->Flexwatt(rack)

Therefore your Hydrofarm is your main, just like in a circuit panel your MAIN breaker is the closest to the incoming power source.

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Well let me clarify and this is last post for me because we are now off the subject. I consider the VE200 the main as in it is controlling the temp on the flexwatt. The Hydrofarm is the back up.

Have a great night.:salute:

OP. Would any body here say that, using two dimmers for two strips of flex watt, would be a good idea when using a dual probe/ dual output herpstat 2?

The collection of
Rachelle/shelliebear &
I Max/DeathMetalMax

1.0 Ringer bp <name="Nurgz"/>
1.0 Dark wild type/Dinker bp <name="CleoMantra"/>
0.1 Bright wild type/Dinker bp<name="Madison"/>
1.0 Butter motley corn <name="Schiztz"/>
0.1 Ultramel motley corn <name="Cheesecake"/>

i read somewhere (i think on this site actually) where you just cut a piece of plastic similar to your tubs and place that between the probe and flexwatt and tape it down. that way it would act as if the heat was transferring through one of your tubs. of course it might be a little off from the actual temps in your tubs. just something i heard worked for someone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

A dimmer does not restrict the thermostat from doing its job. IF your flexwatt can not raise the temp of your tub to the temp you desire while having it restricted to 92 degrees, then you have not selected the appropriate flex watt for your application. Dimmer is there to keep the tape from exceeding 92 degrees. Thermostats are there to turn the tape on and off thus allowing the temps to raise to 92 degrees. If you need temps above 92 degrees, you probably shouldn't be using flexwatt.

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Again this holds true if the room temp is stable. If it is not stable or becomes unstable the thermostat may need to increase the flexwatt heat for a short period of time above 92º (like if your oil heater fails and the room drops 20ºF over the weekend you were away) If you have everything tuned so that the flexwatt does not get over 92 and that gives you say 91 or 90 a 20º drop gives you 70º hot spot?

If your room temp is 100% stable there is no point for a t-stat at all. All you would need is a ultratherm or like UTH and a rheostat and nothing else.

If you room is not stable caping the max temp is not going to help in a critical condition. I simply do not see why you think that a failure can only come from t stats and flexwatt and not other systems too. Properly done a t stat does not allow the flexwatt get to an unsafe temp a failsafe Tstat prevents the max temp in EVENT of an over heating failure from burning the snakes and over heating the enclosure it also will work just fine in an under heating failure as well. Your described set up is only useful in over power failure but does nothing in event of an under power failure. GCFI protects against shorts if one occurs better than a rheostat will. Currently outside my window it is 38ºF the room I am in is 58ºF if I was heating my snake room to 80 with say an oil heater and it failed (like my last one did, tripped an internal breaker faulty manufacturing) the snake room as it is isolated from the house temp would drop to below 58º in no time. I prefer to keep my snakes health and run the small risk that in a few days (max a week) the flexwatt will be ok running at 110 or so to hold a temp of 90 in the rack. Rather than maxing out at 92 and having 72 in the rack 72º/55º sounds like a bad idea to me.

Are you suggesting that a primary thermostat will fail open the built in safety circuit that protects against triac failure will also fail AND the fail safe will also fail all at once? There is a reason why military computers and everything uses a triple redundant back up systems the odds are so long that they will all fail at once that the only way it can happen is a catastrophic failure like a tidal wave or something that makes all issues moot.

If you're worried about your room heater failing, buy a back up heater.


Flex watt should NEVER exceed recommended temps. To do so is risking a fire hazard. the risk of cold snakes is not worth burning down your building or worse.

Rheostats have no way to protect against shorts that I am aware of..

They are fancy names for dimmer switches.

Flexwatt is not designed nor intended to do what you are planning to do with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathMetalMax

OP. Would any body here say that, using two dimmers for two strips of flex watt, would be a good idea when using a dual probe/ dual output herpstat 2?

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depends on what you are saying.

If you are running 2 pieces at same temp, then sure. However, if the herpstat is "dual" output, how do you plan to use only one dimmer?

One of the many reasons you are seeing such variations in that these probes are designed to measure ambient air temperature. This in laymen's terms is the air temp in the tub or temperature created by convection. To measure a "hot spot" which is heat caused by conduction and will be transferred to your snake by conduction, you need a surface measuring instrutment (like a pyrometer). Conduction is the heating of a surface or material by heat exchanged from another surface or material by direct contact.

stable environments can "somewhat" be created in unstable outer environments through the use of multi zone heat. That means you control both the hot and cold ends separately. Even this has its limits.

If you have a tub that needs to be 20 degrees warmer than your outer environment, you can probably pull it off effectively with flex watt. If its more than that, you need to change conditions before thinking about turning up flexwatt to higher temps.