This isnt abuse is it?

My room mate keeps on saying that im abusing my rats with the conditions they live in. Im going to type how I have them set up below, but im a little worried hell call animal control. I dont THINK im abusing them, but I figured Id double check with you guys.


I have 1 male and 1 female rat(my first breeders) in the breeding cage. they have their own seperate cages for when they are not consumating, and I have a 20 long nursery tank set up for the mother when she starts getting close to the birthing.
I plan on adding more females and one more male. Probably only 2 rats per cage. a little cramped perhaps but nothing terrible. the cages are about 2 feet long and 1.5 foot deep.

I use shredded newspaper as bedding which I change once a week. They always have fresh water, and food(alpo dog food), and I put one whole towel(the kind you would use to dry off after a shower) in each cage and they make nests using them and it keeps them warm on the colder nights.

They are housed underneath if my deck, which provides plenty of shape in the first place, and I have a tarp fixed to the decks underside so that they are never exposed to rain(I made it so that the water doesnt pool, it slides down into a drain near my basement door)

We do have a few cats that wander the neighborhood, but Ive never seen them in my backyard before, and I dont think it will be a problem. Nothing could get into those cages unless it has opposable thumbs.

So is everything im doing okay? or could I get in legitimite trouble for this?

Well dog food really isn't the best... But I wouldn't consider it abuse.

I personally wouldn't keep them outside like that for fear of bugs and such, but I don't see anything that would be considered abuse.

How cold does it get?

As long as the rats arent being exposed to extreme temperature changes or being kept in extreme temps then i do not really see any abuse taking place...
Im no rat expert tho lol

I dont see anything except the dog food being the issue... Please look into buyin rat block from a petstore or even walmart carries a box of rat block for less then most dog food. Also remember rats are warm blooded so if your hot, they are hot, as with cold. Is it possible to move then inside? I have 2 1.4 colonies that do great in my room, so your single smaller pair should be just fine even if its in the garage. If youd like I can post links for rat care info. I also believe this forum has a caresheet... Good luck and keep us posted

I don't see anything there that would be considered abuse. I used newspaper at one time and had to change it every day, so I don't see how you get away with once a week, but as long as the stench isn't overpowering in that weeks time then it's fine. Dog food does not provide all the nutrients that a rat needs so I suggest switching to some form of rodent lab block such as Mazuri or Harlan Teklad, both of which are made by Purina.

find a new room mate.

Personally, I wouldn't keep them outside, but I don't see anything that qualifies as abuse. As for feeding them Alpo, you really will get a higher quality feeder for your reptiles if you stop feeding dog food and move to a rat formulated lab block.

I see you're from Maryland. How did your colony fair over the winter? Any drop off or up tick in production?

I believe dog food is extremely high in protein, which is why it's recommended to use rat block and not dog food. High protein diet in rats causes liver damage and shortens their life pretty significantly. I definitely wouldn't call your set up animal abuse though. The only thing I'd personally change is the diet and being outside, but that's just me.

I would also advise to move them indoors, and to change to a rat block instead of Alpo. Personally, I think they stink worse when you feed cat/dog food, than when you feed them rat block.

I don't see it as abuse, but to me, it doesn't appear to be optimal living conditions either.

What kind of bug problems do you mean? Like flies, if I dont clean them often enough or something?

And right now its around the 70s most of the time. Nights dont get below 40 and even when its hot as hell theyre under a deck with great airflow.

But, did you have this colony under the deck this past winter, and how did they fare?

I wish I could keep them inside, but I have 5 room mates including my fiance, so every room is pretty packed with someones stuff. I even turned my dining room into the snake and fish room. When I put the rats in there everyone kind of put their foot down XD rats being next to the dinner table and all. There isnt any room in my room, the basement is another bedroom, and I dont have a garage. Ill be bringing them in during the winter months and keeping them in the living room. Because theyre outside the smell doesnt bother anyone but when I move them in Ill have to change it just about once every day and light candles often XDD.

As far as the diet goes, there is a reason I chose alpo over the nutritionally complete option.

1)I work at petsmart, and a bag of alpo that will last me 2 months with a small colony is less than $20. Normally I would bite the bullet and pay more for better feeders, but all of my balls are still pretty small. the biggest being on medium rats.
2)Because they are all so small I plan on prekilling and frezzing nearly all of the rats that are born as soon as they hit the appropriate weight. I will keep 1 male and 2 females, and prekill the two breeders feeding them to my burmese python whose still small enough to eat rats about their size XD.

By the time I run out of frozen rats, the 3 that I kept SHOULD be well on their way to birthing 2 new rounds. and the cycle will repeat itself.

So yes the alpo can cause liver damage over time and it isnt nutritionally complete, but not one of these rats are going to live long enough to experience that. So alpo is both cost effective and not any more harmful than rat block in the short period of life that they have.

I have considered using chicken wire to kind of cage them in on the underside of the deck and make a little door so I can get in. That would make my room mate feel better about the cats at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Riv

What kind of bug problems do you mean? Like flies, if I dont clean them often enough or something?

And right now its around the 70s most of the time. Nights dont get below 40 and even when its hot as hell theyre under a deck with great airflow.

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I'm talking about ticks, fleas, mites, and what ever else could get to them.

Rats ideal temperature range is 65-80 degrees. I wouldn't keep them in much outside of that range.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I see you're from Maryland. How did your colony fair over the winter? Any drop off or up tick in production?

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Originally Posted by Slim

But, did you have this colony under the deck this past winter, and how did they fare?

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Riv, I won't ask again, but I'm starting to wonder why you are avoiding this question.

Sorry slim didnt see your post before. I just decided to start breeding after the winter started the fade. Ive read that they can do okay, but they can sometimes stop breeding if it goes below 40 degrees. I plan to bring mine inside during the winter months as I dont WANT them to be uncomfortable, and I would love it is the number of babies didnt drop, even if the snakes do slow down on eating a little

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Originally Posted by Riv

I just decided to start breeding after the winter started the fade.

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No worries, I just didn't want to think you would let them stay out over the winter.

He did say he would be bringing the rats inside for winter.

TEchnically the abuse would be if you mistreated the rats, or deliberately exposed them to detrimental conditions. Neglect would be covered by lack of food, water or shelter.

Your description doesn't sound like abuse or neglect. If your roommate has a specific complaint,(ie the possibility of cats) then you could see about remedying that specific concern.

Feeding dog food isn't ideal, but there's been plenty of rat breeders who used dog food. Having them exposed outdoors is also not ideal, but if you have them protected from sun and rain, and the temps do not get too hot or too cold, then it's okay.

My main concern would be exposure to cats or dogs. Even if the cat can't get directly to the rats, they can stress them out by attempting to, climbing on the cages and clawing at them, etc. Rats under stress can injure or kill other rats or themselves in panic. Also, they're exposed to fleas etc and to anything any neighbor sprays for weeds or pests(drifting in on a breeze).

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I'm talking about ticks, fleas, mites, and what ever else could get to them.

Rats ideal temperature range is 65-80 degrees. I wouldn't keep them in much outside of that range.

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Gotcha. hm.. I hadnt thought about bugs. Ill have to check them for ticks fleas and mites more regularly. Also, granted we havent seen our hottest days yet, but Ill temp gun under the deck today, tonight, and when we get our first hot one and see if the shade doesnt help keep their ambient down. Getting them a large water dish they could soak in might help too. Not sure if rats do that or not XDD

I mean I really would love to move them inside permanantly. My other room mates mom aunt and grandmother will be staying with us until the end of june and theyre all terrified of rats, so when they leave maybe ill see about keeping them in the living room. there has to be some form of comprimise. The facts are theyre exposed to fleas ticks mites and chemicals, and sometimes the whether will be in the extremes. with that argument maybe ill make some headway.


Just out of curiosity has anyone tried reptile carpet as bedding? Shredded newspaper is irretating because it goes everywhere and is destroyed quickly. unshredded newspaper just gets moves and they just pee on the floor of their cage, and I wouldd love it if I could just take the sheet out of every cage throw them in the washing machine and be done with it as opposed to the process of replacing newspaper or aspen. its such a bic.

newspaper is a horrible substrate for rodents, aspen or pine are much better, on the other hand I've been feeding dog food to my mice and rats for over 10 years so I'm obviously a pretty bad person. (a note on using dog food, Just read the list of ingredients and compare to rodent chow, I would never feed my dog the same brand of dog food I feed my rats)

Aspen is just so messy and expensive. But, I suppose if thats what works best.

I wouldn't say "abuse" but my first thought was rats burrow to keep cool and the deck overhead isn't going to keep the temperature down. The second was, "eww, bugs" as keeping warm blooded animals were I live would draw in deer ticks faster than a buffet sign. The last thought was the snake is only as healthy as its food and its food is only as healthy as what it was eating...

I guess I'm repeating what everyone else said, but adding: Our local animal control laws for dogs and rabbits (I know those specifically because we've called our neighbors out and the rabbit didn't make it :() would say you aren't abusing, but if there is a smell you could get a warning for general property laws.

I forgot.. towels are a bad idea as the rats can shred them and get threads tangled around limbs which leads to amputated limbs or death. Especially pinkies can get tangled in a thread.

I would not use reptile carpet. Same reason plus it's not edible. If you want a cloth in the cage, go with polar fleece type fabrics that can't unravel(it's not a woven thread cloth). I buy 'throw blankets' at the Dollar Stores for $5 and cut them into small squares for the rats.

Breeding females seem to chew up everything(a nesting instinct?) here. I had some that loved their hammocks and blankies... until the first babies. Now they chew to pieces everything.

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I forgot.. towels are a bad idea as the rats can shred them and get threads tangled around limbs which leads to amputated limbs or death. Especially pinkies can get tangled in a thread.

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I have personal experience with this happening. When I raised rats, I also used strips of old towels for nesting material. They'd chew them up just like yours do, but one day when I checked on the babies, I found one whose tail was tangled in the threads. I had to cut it loose, but it might have been that way as long as 12 hours, and part of his tail ended up dying and falling off due to lack of circulation.

As for the dog food part of it, there are dyes used in dog foods that build up in the rat's system and can cause health problems in the snakes they are fed to. I want to say it was Red 40 that they studied? I'll try to find the link, but it won't be until tomorrow; I have to work early in the AM.

IF a neighbor complains about an outdoor problem...then you have a problem.

But for someone in the house you are sharing to complain to the point of fearing them to contact the authories on you....either you are doing something REALLY bad or you need to have them move or find a new residence for yourself.

My ex wife complained about my motorcycles and guns....she's my ex wife now. My motorcycles and guns are still here and the idea of the snakes just sets her off. I won't live my life to suit her, I live it for me.

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Originally Posted by Sita

As for the dog food part of it, there are dyes used in dog foods that build up in the rat's system and can cause health problems in the snakes they are fed to. I want to say it was Red 40 that they studied? I'll try to find the link, but it won't be until tomorrow; I have to work early in the AM.

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Please do post this, it's been talked about for years but I've NEVER been able to find anything scientific to back it up. This story has been around so long that I've got a feeling it's more urban legend then fact.

Here's a few detailing the effects of two types of red dye on the rats and mice. The username and password for the full text is at the top of the page.

http://www.feingold.org/Research/dye-studies.html

I can't find the one I remember reading that had studied the effects of feeding rodents that had been fed dog food on snakes. It may be too recent to be in the free archives online, but I'll look some more.

Even if I can't find that one again, just those studies on the effects on rodents would be enough for me to not want to feed those rodents to my snakes!

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Originally Posted by Riv

I wish I could keep them inside, but I have 5 room mates including my fiance, so every room is pretty packed with someones stuff. I even turned my dining room into the snake and fish room. When I put the rats in there everyone kind of put their foot down XD rats being next to the dinner table and all. There isnt any room in my room, the basement is another bedroom, and I dont have a garage. Ill be bringing them in during the winter months and keeping them in the living room. Because theyre outside the smell doesnt bother anyone but when I move them in Ill have to change it just about once every day and light candles often XDD.

As far as the diet goes, there is a reason I chose alpo over the nutritionally complete option.

1)I work at petsmart, and a bag of alpo that will last me 2 months with a small colony is less than $20. Normally I would bite the bullet and pay more for better feeders, but all of my balls are still pretty small. the biggest being on medium rats.
2)Because they are all so small I plan on prekilling and frezzing nearly all of the rats that are born as soon as they hit the appropriate weight. I will keep 1 male and 2 females, and prekill the two breeders feeding them to my burmese python whose still small enough to eat rats about their size XD.

By the time I run out of frozen rats, the 3 that I kept SHOULD be well on their way to birthing 2 new rounds. and the cycle will repeat itself.

So yes the alpo can cause liver damage over time and it isnt nutritionally complete, but not one of these rats are going to live long enough to experience that. So alpo is both cost effective and not any more harmful than rat block in the short period of life that they have.

I have considered using chicken wire to kind of cage them in on the underside of the deck and make a little door so I can get in. That would make my room mate feel better about the cats at the very least.

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I don't know if it's just me but...I do NOT light candles in my house, ever. Nor do I burn incense. All those nice, warm, pleasant smells are made with harmful chemicals. Your snakes really only have 1 fully functioning lung. So personally, I'm not willing to risk my snakes inhaling those harmful chemicals.

I also stay away from cologne, perfume, scented air freshners (especially aerosol!) because I find them unnecessary and completely obnoxious. Especially when you get stuck in an elevator with somebody who went Axe-happy! (aka, every man who ever wears axe, ever)

Anyways, just thought I'd point that out, since nobody else has.

FOR SURE I'd switch your rats substrate away from newspaper. Just because YOU can't smell the ammonia because they're outside, doesn't mean the rats aren't still breathing it it. Newspaper is not absorbent at all. I use a layer of pine pellets, topped with a layer of shavings.

It sounds like if I were in your situation I'd just stick with buying frozen rodents. The lack of space, combined with the intolerance from your roommates, and the very cold night-time temperatures even at this time of year, just doesn't sound like ideal rat-breeding conditions to me.

I agree with SquamishSerpents. It sounds like you'd be better suited to feed F/T with your space limitations and husbandry concerns. By ordering in bulk online or from a local breeder, you could probably limit costs. Especially if you consider your current time/money investments each month maintaining your colony (not to mention not having to battle the roommates.)

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I also stay away from cologne, perfume, scented air freshners (especially aerosol!).
Especially when you get stuck in an elevator with somebody who went Axe-happy! (aka, every man who ever wears axe, )

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I find them obnoxious too! They make me gag!
And yes axe is nasty!!!! It makes me have an allergic reaction, i start coughing and crap!

I would be concerned about glass tanks outside, they can overheat easily killing your rats. Newspaper sucks as bedding, tried it once. It does not absorb the urine at all. The animals will be sitting in it and it can cause urine burns and lung issues. I buy pine bedding from a feed store where I get hay for my guinea pigs. I get two big bags of pine for the same price as one bag from a pet store. I use to feed dog food too, but recently switched to rodent blocks. Not only do the rats like the blocks more but they look healthier. Their coats are not greasy looking anymore and they have no more scabs. I know that your rats are only feeders and not going to be around long but healthy feeders makes healthy snakes. Also having the rats outside will attract wild rats and mice, which may have bugs and diseases that can be passed to your rats. If there is no way to get the rats inside, can you get a small shed set up for them. Make sure it is well vented with a fan too. Also don't be surprised if they stop breeding in the summer when it gets hot.

Alright. I did some weighing of options and I put some changes into effect.

1)I moved all the rats and enclosures inside(I got 5 more females yesterday! = P, but dont worry, im giving the male breaks between ladies.) Right now theyre in the living room, but If I do cage cleanings 2-3 times a week it should never smell THAT horrible. If my room mates put up a fuss, then I can attempt to put them in my laundryroom(but its connected to my room mates room so probably not) or I can try to put them in my room and finnagle enough space. The one concern there is im afraid the noise will keep me awake. but worst cage scenario I think I could do it.

2)Im still putting a few sheets of newspaper on the cage bottoms to catch anything that may soak down, but I bought a HUGE bag of pine shavings and am layering that over the neswpaper.

3) I started a breeding calander to outline the dates they were combined, when the females were removed, when I should theoreticly expect a little etc. etc. This should keep more more organized, and I can write out which days I want to clean too.


I know you guys think I should probably be BUYING mice, but my first year of breeding is actually going to be fairly large. ive spent the last year(possibly more, I cant remember) learning, and reading, and planning, and double checking over and over. Its finally time to put my plans into action and (with any luck) Ill have a lot of mouths to feed very soon. Not to mention my burm eats more than any being in my house @_@; So I really need to make this work. One way or another. As time goes on Ill have more space, and maybe Ill be able to rent out a second room for all my snakes when one of my room mates leaves, and I can commandeer another part of the house for my rats when they move their stuff XD so it really might not be long before it becomes incredibly reasonable.

Paper products is probably the worst bedding you can use, right up there with old torn up clothing, It holds the ammonia/urine in and makes the rats/mice breath it continually.
Kiln dried pine is cheap and works really well.

A 50 lb bale of aspen costs me arond

(dang phone) costs me around 5 bucks. They sell it as horse bedding at my local farm supply store

I have a 1:3 colony of ASFs, and 10 mice in my room and I don't find them that loud, even though their wheels squeak every once inawhile


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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?byivfq

When I lived in Arizona, during fall to spring I was able to keep my rats outside. They were in rat racks, I used Pine bedding which I dusted with Food Grade DE every cleaning.

The temperature dropped in the 30's and they did very well though I brought nursing moms inside because the babies would catch a chill and die.

I never once had any bug problems with my rodents and the DE was a precaution not a treatment.

I built a shed on the property that was insulated and ran an AC in the summer during the day. Usually at night I just propped the door opened because it got cool. In the winter when i had the shed, I propped the door opened as well.

Now I live in NY and have everyone in the basement and in rat racks. There are a few females to one male per drawer and they stay in there and raise litters, eat harlan teklad, and are on pine pellets.

I don't see your setup as abuse at all except possibly a problem in summer in glass tanks.

I saw you moved them inside and got more. May I suggest building a rack. Space efficient, easier to clean, feed, water, etc

I wish I could get good aspen that cheap from my feed store. They only carry pine and cedar products.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I wish I could get good aspen that cheap from my feed store. They only carry pine and cedar products.

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They carry pine in bags that big too but it's pretty dusty stuff. The aspen is the shredded type and I've been using it for years for the rodents. I was using it a while for the snakes too until I went back to newspaper again for them.

They fit perfecrly in my closet right now. Im using newspaper again but changing ir daily. Building a rack actively. Jist an update = D

As long as the rats are healthy, I don't think you could get in any trouble. This also is unfair seeing as they sell gazzilions of kinds of rat poison and traps.... kind of ironic.:mad:

Whew, i had my first three litters! I had 23 pups, all b
Agouti hooded except for one hooded blue and one hooded albino!

I wound up removing the door of my closet, and making a very simplostic rodent rack with 3 shelves. 1 male 3 females in two shelves and a nursery bin if the mother seems unhappy with the others.

Im still feeding aplo, but im back on aspen and am incredibly happy with the results. I change bedding about once a week, and theure never too terribly noisy. Im moving into a bigger bedroom in a few days, and then the rack wo t have to stay in the closet anymore too, so vedy soon housing thecolony will be no issue at all = P

I know you are not going to like reading this and I hope you do not see this as an attack. If you can not afford the proper food and you can not afford proper bedding, why are you buying more rats or raising rats at all? I think a better option is to switch your snakes over to F/T and give up the rats.

If you can not afford to feed f/t, then maybe you can not afford to keep snakes yet. It may be a good idea to wait until your finances and living conditions are in a little better shape before spending disposable income on this hobby.

I understand why you think that, but the fact of the matter is I can in fact afford to buy both proper food and bedding.

The fact remains my food choice takes a long time to negatively impact said rodents, and they will not live long enough to see the negative side effects. So if there is no difference in health whatsoever why would I intentionally pay more than necessary? It just doesnt make sense. And yes, the price is nice. But that does not and will not undermine my point.

As far as being able to afford bedding everyone on this site will go the less expensive option when they can. I attempted to use the cheapest option and with the advice of other users determined it was more worth it to provide the more expensive substrate that I am currently using.

Believe me I wouldnt be in this hobby if I could very literally not afford to provide my animals with the necessary means to live. I dont see your statement as a personal attack, but I cant help but think that the statement is arrogant, presumptious, and borderline ignorant. I re-read through the entire thread before responding to this, and have come to the conclusion that nowhere did I ever say or insinuate that I would not do what was necessary to make this work, and successfully provide positive conditions for every single animal I bring into my home. Ideal scenario, or not.

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The fact remains my food choice takes a long time to negatively impact said rodents, and they will not live long enough to see the negative side effects.

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Like I posted previously, if the dog food you're feeding contains Red Dye 40, it is building up in their systems from day one, and the toxins are being passed on to your snakes.

Even though there aren't specific studies with that dye and pet snakes, there's been plenty of studies involving other toxins being ingested by prey and being found in and affecting the predator that eats them.

You're risking the health of your SNAKES by feeding dog food, not just the rodents.

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Originally Posted by Sita

Like I posted previously, if the dog food you're feeding contains Red Dye 40, it is building up in their systems from day one, and the toxins are being passed on to your snakes.

Even though there aren't specific studies with that dye and pet snakes, there's been plenty of studies involving other toxins being ingested by prey and being found in and affecting the predator that eats them.

You're risking the health of your SNAKES by feeding dog food, not just the rodents.

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You Literally Just wrote in the same post that there are no specific studies with that specific dye and pet snakes. Meaning that until something has been proven there is no reason to stop. Yes, there is a distinct possibility that the food MIGHT be builiding some sort of toxin that could impact my snake. And in the exact same way, the cell phone in your pocket MIGHT be giving you cancer as we speak. It will not stop you from carrying that cell phone in your pocket until definitive research has proven the theory.

If you would really like to, we can derail this thread and make this a debate about whether feeding dog food or rat block is the ethical thing to do for both prey and predator, but its been hashed out a thousand times before and not a single person has won yet.

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Quote Originally Posted by Sita
Like I posted previously, if the dog food you're feeding contains Red Dye 40, it is building up in their systems from day one, and the toxins are being passed on to your snakes.

Even though there aren't specific studies with that dye and pet snakes, there's been plenty of studies involving other toxins being ingested by prey and being found in and affecting the predator that eats them.

You're risking the health of your SNAKES by feeding dog food, not just the rodents.

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You Literally Just wrote in the same post that there are no specific studies with that specific dye and pet snakes. Meaning that until something has been proven there is no reason to stop. Yes, there is a distinct possibility that the food MIGHT be builiding some sort of toxin that could impact my snake. And in the exact same way, the cell phone in your pocket MIGHT be giving you cancer as we speak. It will not stop you from carrying that cell phone in your pocket until definitive research has proven the theory.

If you would really like to, we can derail this thread and make this a debate about whether feeding dog food or rat block is the ethical thing to do for both prey and predator, but its been hashed out a thousand times before and not a single person has won yet.

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Show me a study that shows that when a toxin is ingested by a prey animal that AFFECTS the animal, and this prey animal is the majority of what the predator eats, that the predator is completely unaffected.

Mercury, DDT, toxic phytoplankton, pesticides, rodenticides...all these and more have been proven to affect the prey AND the predator that feeds on them. If you want to risk the life and health of your snakes by feeding them toxin-laced rodents, then go ahead. For me, the science is there to show that more than likely, not "possibly" or "might", feeding our snakes an animal that has been ingesting a KNOWN poison is going to affect the health of the snake.

Dyes are not a chemical and not a definite toxin. Feeding actual poisons to an animal like the ones mentioned in the above post will affect the animal eating said prey. But dyes may be an exception to that rule. People have been feeding dog food to rats for a long time and many have never seen any difference. Without scienctific research into the matter there is no way to tell for sure. People string together symptoms of other medical issues with unreasonable causes all the time. The people that are convinced that dog food effected their snakes health could have had a harmful bacteria in the air or contaminated water that made their snakes ill.

My point is that yes in other cirucmstances certain things were proven to effect the predator. Dyes have not been confirmed to be in that group. As far as im concerned the percentage that it could effect them is 50%. That means that there is an equal chance that it DOES NOT effect the snake. So while YOU may choose to er on the side of cuation and not feed rats dog food, you cannot condemn anyone else for not sharing your opinion, and feeding their rats as they please.

The truth of the matter is that we do not know, and unless someone like you backs an organization that will test for a few years to find out, we probably wont. So on that note, im not going to tell you that your irrational and potentially unfounded fear is absolutely ridiculous, and you wont tell me im killing my snakes.


Now, back on a thread related and positive note, My rats are doing great = D Im expecting my 4th 5th and 6th litter any day now, and it appears I lucked out with mostly very responsible mothers. My hairless isnt mothering quite so well, but thats to be expected. I fostered her babies to another female who just had her own, and she accepted them without issue.


Even better news, Im making enough money now that I'm renting out two rooms! Im taking a larger bedroom, and my current one is being devoted soley to my rats and ferret. as well as storage space for my snake supplies. I didnt think it would be a great idea to keep my snakes in the same room as my rats XD figure theyd get hungry and try to escape. Im pretty pumped though. Now ive got more than enough space, dont have to smell or hear them first hand, and none of my room mates will be bothered. Couldnt have worked out better.:banana:

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Dyes are not a chemical and not a definite toxin. Feeding actual poisons to an animal like the ones mentioned in the above post will affect the animal eating said prey. But dyes may be an exception to that rule. People have been feeding dog food to rats for a long time and many have never seen any difference. Without scienctific research into the matter there is no way to tell for sure.

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You obviously didn't even look at the studies I linked to. Most dyes used today ARE a chemical that is created in a lab. The studies I posted are SCIENTIFIC studies that have determined the toxicity of many food dyes, including Red 40, which is commonly found in dog food, along with many other dyes that those studies have ALSO proven to be toxins.

Some of the studies on that page not only examine the toxicity of dyes on rats and mice, but also on people.

http://www.feingold.org/Research/dye-studies.html

I'm basing my "irrational and potentially unfounded fear" and "opinion" on FACTS.

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Originally Posted by Riv

Dyes have not been confirmed to be in that group. As far as im concerned the percentage that it could effect them is 50%. That means that there is an equal chance that it DOES NOT effect the snake.

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Since I don't know the real numbers I'll be taking your "statistics" into account...if you are fine with investing potentially thousands of dollars in snakes to breed that are going to over time require thousands of hours of your time and thousands of more dollars just to maintain, and are fine with the 1 in 2 chance that your feeders, in the long run, may affect their health, have at it.