Strange behaviour while soaking

So the vet told me to soak Manasha in warm water every day for 10 minutes.

I soaked her yesterday for 2 minutes with a couple drops of dish soap to get rid of some oil residue. And I soaked her again today for 2-3 minutes. I don't do the full 10 minutes because she seems to hate it. And the way she acts scares the $#!% outta me.

The might before I took her to the vet last week, she did the same thing and it's the biggest reason I was afraid for her life.

Her head goes straight up and starts to look unsteady and her head starts to to backwards as if she were having a stroke or something. Today she started to lay sidways with the right side of her face touching the water and I held her head up to make sure she wouldn't aspirate any water.

So what's up with this behavior? I have seen them soaking in their water dishes before and they don't act like that. They just sit calmly in the water with their heads out of the water but looking normal...

Why did the vet say to soak Manasha? Is Manasha a spider? If she is it could be some wobble triggered by stress(bath).

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Originally Posted by John1982

Why did the vet say to soak Manasha? Is Manasha a spider? If she is it could be some wobble triggered by stress(bath).

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x2

Soaking is almost never recomended. Why did the vet say to do this? And is your vet knowledgable about reptiles? Many are not.

How warm is the water?

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They appear to be knowledgeable about it. They probably said to soak her every day because she looks like she is getting ready to shed. But she this behavior she's exhibiting, I really don't want to do it anymore. I think if she's still so weak, leaving her alone is the best thing I can do for her right now. Am I right?

the temp is warm to luke warm to my touch. I didn't think to take a temp. Stupid me.

Soaking a BP right before shed is most likely going to make the shed go bad. Soaking a BP not only stresses BP's out, but also removes oils that are necessary for the shedding cycle.

Obviously your vet isn't as knowledgable as he/se sounded.

You should stop soaking your BP... all you need to do to get good sheds is make sure that the cage humidity is at 60% or higher.

Think we need a background story here to get a better picture of what is going on. what do you mean she is weak? why was she at the vet in the first place? etc....

No need to soak before a shed. Keep your humidity up to around 60%-70% and give her a water bowl she can soak in if she chooses to. If in fact she does have a rough shed you can soak or do whatever is needed after the fact.

The over-handling and soaking is most definitley stressing her out.

Is this the same vet that put oil on her to cure a mite infestation? The back story is in another thread started by manasha-bogo

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There are very valid reasons why to soak a snake usually it is connected with digestion mites or severe dehydration. Before a shed is a bad time to soak as it washes away the liquid layer between the new and old skin that lubricates the removal often making a shed bad.

I don't have enough facts to guess at the logic of your vet. Reptiles are hard to deal with because they stress so easily. Sometimes the best treatment is 'skillful neglect' leaving and animal alone in a enclosure wit as low stress as possible is better than invasive treatment. It is hard to generalize some are slow to stress some fast. It is a balance between treatment and stress sometimes with non priority treatment the stress outweighs any benefit.

What is going on with your snake that prompted the vet visit?

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Originally Posted by el8ch

Think we need a background story here to get a better picture of what is going on. what do you mean she is weak? why was she at the vet in the first place? etc....

No need to soak before a shed. Keep your humidity up to around 60%-70% and give her a water bowl she can soak in if she chooses to. If in fact she does have a rough shed you can soak or do whatever is needed after the fact.

The over-handling and soaking is most definitley stressing her out.

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Sorry, I should have provided a brief background for anyone who hasn't read my earlier posts.

Basically she is 6 months old. I got her 3 months ago along with a male (also 6 months old) from a herp store who told me I could house them together. For the last 3 months they had been living together in a large glass tank. He has grown; She has not. They both got mites last month and were treated with Provent-a-Mite (the tank, not them). The two weeks that it took to get the mite situation handled was too much for her. She became very anemic, and I took her to the vet last 10 days ago. The vet ran tests, dewormed her, gave her ivermectin for the mites, and started to tube feed her every 2 days while in their care. I brought her back home from the vets 3 days ago. They told me to soak her daily for 10 minutes. I did it yesterday and today. But her behavior makes my heart skip a beat.

I took her back to the vet today for another tube feeding and she'll be going back every saturday until either they tell me she doesn't need it anymore, or she strengthens up. She is weak and I can see it now. She always has been weak. (Hindsight, and all that...) but never this weak. She weighed 85 grams today at the vet before they fed her. She was 86 yesterday and 74 grams when I initially took her in 10 days ago.

So that's about it.

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Originally Posted by AJs Snake House

Is this the same vet that put oil on her to cure a mite infestation?

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Yep. Point taken. they have many years experience, but I think they are old-school. Even with my rabbits issues I had to find newer treatment information on my own. sigh....

tube feeding? That is possibly the most stressful thing for a snake, is she really that thin to require such extreme measures? Remember BP's can go over a year without eating at all...

Personally I would be getting a second opinion if not a new vet.

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

Sorry, I should have provided a brief background for anyone who hasn't read my earlier posts.

Basically she is 6 months old. I got her 3 months ago along with a male (also 6 months old) from a herp store who told me I could house them together. For the last 3 months they had been living together in a large glass tank. He has grown; She has not. They both got mites last month and were treated with Provent-a-Mite (the tank, not them). The two weeks that it took to get the mite situation handled was too much for her. She became very anemic, and I took her to the vet last 10 days ago. The vet ran tests, dewormed her, gave her ivermectin for the mites, and started to tube feed her every 2 days while in their care. I brought her back home from the vets 3 days ago. They told me to soak her daily for 10 minutes. I did it yesterday and today. But her behavior makes my heart skip a beat.

I took her back to the vet today for another tube feeding and she'll be going back every saturday until either they tell me she doesn't need it anymore, or she strengthens up. She is weak and I can see it now. She always has been weak. (Hindsight, and all that...) but never this weak. She weighed 85 grams today at the vet before they fed her. She was 86 yesterday and 74 grams when I initially took her in 10 days ago.

So that's about it.

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Sounds like that vet is kicking her butt.. Do you have pictures of the girl before your first vet visit?

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Originally Posted by John1982

Sounds like that vet is kicking her butt.. Do you have pictures of the girl before your first vet visit?

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I sure do...

I took pix of her before I put her back in her tub today.

I've shown this one here before. This is the day I discovered the mite infestation, 20 days ago.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-K...DDF1B6E1C3.JPG


And these two are from today right after the 2 minute soak.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h...389381E592.JPG


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...8AEA060DB0.JPG

That snake does not need to be tube fed, tube feeding is only going to make the problem worse by stressing out the snake.

I strongly suggest that you find a new vet.

Yea, if it were up to me, I would just leave her alone for 7-10 days and then try to feed her a small hopper and see if she will take it. But I am leery of relying on my own gutt feelings and instincts when it comes to snakes anymore. At least not until I learn more about how to care for them. I'm at the mercy of the vets and what you guys tell me to do.

I want to err on the side of caution tho. So if it is more cautious to keep tube feeding her a couple more weeks, then I'll do that. But if it's safer to leave her alone and eliminate stressors for a good while to give her a chance to re-coop, then I'll do that.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

That snake does not need to be tube fed, tube feeding is only going to make the problem worse by stressing out the snake.

I strongly suggest that you find a new vet.

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That snake is 5 mos olds and 86g. She needs some sort of intervention.

She was no longer taking food on her own right?

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Originally Posted by jbean7916

That snake is 5 mos olds and 86g. She needs some sort of intervention.

She was no longer taking food on her own right?

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But tube feeding?

Has the OP tried assist feeding? Much less intrusive. I can't think of a single situation where tube feeding was the best option.

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Originally Posted by jbean7916

That snake is 5 mos olds and 86g. She needs some sort of intervention.

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This is what worried me from the beginning. She had been eating one hopper every 7 days since I got her. The male grew and is fat from that, she is not. I'm feeding him full grown mice now. But I can't see giving her a full grown mouse yet.

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Originally Posted by jbean7916

She was no longer taking food on her own right?

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The last time she ate on her own was Wednesday 4/25. She killed a hopper, had it wrapped up for a loooooooooooooooong time (over an hour), then swallowed it. Then regurged it. She was cold to the touch and wet and clammy. that's the same day she started doing the odd thing while on a towel with me, where her head was unsteady and falling backwards.

As for the anemia. Here are my vet's words, "blood like cool-aid", "profoundly anemic", "limp", "weak", "critical". So I just want to make sure I do the right things so that she doesn't tip over the edge.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

But tube feeding?

Has the OP tried assist feeding?

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Nope, I have not. Was told somewhere that assist feeding was more stressful than tube. Wish I could ask the snake herself what she prefers. I think she would tell me to go bugger off and die. lol!

Hold on, your BP regurgitated? That brings in a whole new set of issues. I have never dealt with a regurg, but I believe you are susposed to not feed a snake for 2 weeks after a regurg so the digestive system can recoupe. Hopefully someone with experience with regurgitation issues will come along.

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

Nope, I have not. Was told somewhere that assist feeding was more stressful than tube. Wish I could ask the snake herself what she prefers. I think she would tell me to go bugger off and die. lol!

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I can't possibly see tube feeding being less stressful.

Assist feeding is just opening the snakes mouth and placing the rodent in it... Vs cramming something down the snakes throat.

Neither are good solutions and are stressful.

I am a somewhat confused, has this BP been refusing food recently or is she eating just not gaining weight?

She just regurged 10 days ago. I haven't tried offering food to her at all since then. The vet started tube feeding because she was "profoundly anemic" and the vet was so afraid to draw blood for tests that she waited 24 hours because she thought drawing blood was going to kill her.

Btw, I was afraid that the miniscule heating pads weren't doing the trick so I bought bigger ones and installed them today.

What's the best temperature to keep these at ? The thermostat is set to 93F at the moment.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N...BF91F33C73.JPG

I have worked with lots of rescues. The soaking is likely to keep the fluids up vet journals often speak of dehydration in reptiles being a serious emergency where even 5 years ago not so much. The soaking is a tough call stress is also very serious.

You have separated them yes? The first CRITICAL thing is to keep the temps correct. she is small so I'd say 89-90 (88 is fine under normal conditions these are not.) with 78-9 cool side and ambient around 80-83º ambient likely is very important in this case. I'd suggest giving her a break for a few days no soaks no feeding nothing just quiet and dark.

I would try to get the humidity up to around 65%-75% RH. Remember that ventilation is also important as well. You might find a humid hide maybe better than soaking less stress and similar effect. Talk with your vet.

Tube feeding with a pinky pump or critical care? Necessary? I can't say I am not there. That is quite serious weight loss and to me that is critical at this point. Again it is a balance between intervention and stress. It is hard to know what is the right choice vets tend to like to do something. In fairness the client generally don't accept do nothing as the correct action. If you present that as your suggestion it returns it to the table as a viable option. I would discuss the situation with your vet and ask after the concerns about stress.

Snakes have a remarkable way of healing themselves. The best medicine is usually keeping their environment in ideal conditions and leaving them alone. At the condition that your little guy is in, you may be better off contacting the help of a local experienced keeper. This vet is obviously doing more harm than good. I have yet to meet a vet that knew more about how to care for reptiles than your average enthusiast. I hope your little guy pulls through, he is a beauty

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

They appear to be knowledgeable about it.

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This is the same Vet that put mineral oil on your snake to get rid of mites...that is not a testament to their reptile knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

the temp is warm to luke warm to my touch.

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If it's warm to your touch, it's too hot for your snake. You have to start thinking terms of them being cold blooded.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

Personally I would be getting a second opinion if not a new vet.

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True Dat!

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

Yea, if it were up to me, I would just leave her alone for 7-10 days and then try to feed her a small hopper and see if she will take it.

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Probably the best thing you can do for this animal. I urge you to this.

So before she was eating and just not growing, that sounds like internal parasites right? In neither picture does she look like she's thin enough that I would warrant even assist feeding. She does look a little dehydrated in the second picture though so maybe that's why your vet started the soaking regimen.

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The mat temp is at 90F (I dropped it down from 93F), her humidity is 76%, ambient was 73F but rose to 75F when I closed the A/C vents in the office. The air was hitting the tubs head on. I hadn't noticed this before. Her tub is underneath the male's so it was more sheltered from the air. His humidity is only at 43%. I also raised the house A/C from 74 to 75. Not much but I will check again in an hour and see if it needs to go up further. With the vents shut, that room will get warm quickly. It's small, and far from the A/C.

She was out of her hide when I checked. The lights had been off. When I checked again, she was moving around the tub.

They have been completely separated since the 25th. The fact that she is out and about is good. Hopefully that means she feels more comfortable in there.

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Out and about is not good. Hiding is good. I would stop soaking her, and just let her settle down after all the stress she has been through. Leave her be, with her temps and humidity right, appropriate hides, then maybe after a few days of peace and quiet try feeding her something live and small. See what she does. I think she has spent her life way to stressed out and just needs to feel comfortable. And soaking before a shed robs essential oils needed for a shed.

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

Out and about is not good. Hiding is good.

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See? My gutt = wrong.


But still my "gutt" tells me leaving her alone is the right thing to do. I'm not going to disturb her at all for a week then I'll offer her a small hopper next Saturday and see what happens.

Here's a pic of my cable maintenance nightmare of a setup. I doubt they care about cable maintenance tho.

http://img.tapatalk.com/6344b473-e3d5-f4c0.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/6344b473-e3e9-6d89.jpg

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How is the exploration? is it frantic or calm with lost of tongue flicks? Often very stressed snakes will sit and not move at all. and moderately stressed snakes will roam but frantic fast jerky movements. Lazy curiosity is good and a great sign. A snake that always hides is not healthy either. As with most things a balance.

I see no problem with an oil mite treatment it is old school but it does not stress the immune system and cannot harm the snake. To me it sounds like your vet is treading lightly. Treating the enclosure and snake is very logical rather than using toxins that have serious side issues in humans (like P-A-M).

Is the feeding being held down? Is it a powder (critical care -carnivore) that is being used? This also is new ideas it is way easier to digest simple protein and additives than whole prey. Assuming that the balance of stress is managed it seems to be a good solution. Whole prey might bring on a regourge. The baby food for carnivores is easy to digest and gets lots of extra hydration in. It packs a hell of a punch. We have been using it will all sorts of rescues. Tubing a snake should not be done at home getting it wrong is very bad... That is a job for someone qualified.

You really NEED to get the ambient temps up they should be 80 ideally. 73 is very low, low enough to cause a regourge. Core temp is very important and simply warming the belly is not enough is cases of low air temps to raise the core temp. (big lung...) severe hypothermia in humans is treated by warming the blood. Not just the skin.

You poor darling. You've been through the wringer haven't you ?

Ok, take a deep breath with me. Now, let's think this through. First of all we know that housing them together is a bad thing. So now they are separated and that is good.

Now, she has been eating but not growing. Some of that could be stress related, but I don't think all of it.

Ok so the vet is trying, but to be honest I think he's doing as much harm as good. The soaking is the LAST thing she needs right before a shed. It will wreck her shed and stress her out majorly, as you have found. I don't think you should continue the soaks.

The tube feeding cuts both ways. If she is as bad as the vet says, she does need help. However, that is stressful and traumatizing to her, and simply perpetuates the cycle. I suggest a compromise. The vet recommended the tube feeding about once a week, correct ? So I would give her as close to perfect an environment as you can, leave her alone to rest and relax, then offer her a very small prey item such as a fuzzy mouse or hopper. Offer her the prey, and leave her alone for a little while to eat it. If she does, great. If not, then go ahead and let the vet tube feed her again. Wait another week and try feeding her again. If you get her to feed successfully, wait a week and offer again. if she can keep down two meals spaced 7 days apart, then I'd keep her prey small, but offer maybe every 5 days.

She is weak and stressed out and unhappy, the best you can do for her is give her an ideal environment and let her rest for a while. Make sure she's warm enough, give her quiet and dark and see how she does.

I wish you all the best.

Gale

Closing the vents in the office worked like magic, the ambient temps in the tubs are 82F. the humidity is 76% in her tub, 72% in his.

Her wandering last night was ver calm. When I looked the first time, she was just hanging halfway out her hide just chilling out. No tongue flicking. When I look in on them the second time, she was beside her hide (see pic above) and just laying flat against the bottom. Again, not tongue flicking. This morning she is back all the way into her hide with just the tip of her tail hanging out. The male has not made an appearance, but I know he is a lot more healthy than her. I will be trying to feed him an adult mouse today while I leave her alone.

Question about feeding if you don't mind....
I have always taken them out of their enclosures to feed them in a plastic tub on the floor. They had always eaten this way without much fuss. As soon as he swallows his prey and it goes all the way down into his stomach, I pick him up and put him back into his enclosure. I then don't touch them for 2 days after that.

Should I continue to feed him this way ? I keep reading here and there that feeding out side of the enclosure is not good. Why is it not good? Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

I keep reading here and there that feeding out side of the enclosure is not good. Why is it not good? Thanks!

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I think the main reason for not feeding in a differant tub is because the snake will associate that tub with feeding. This means after they ate and you reach in to pick it up your hand can also likely be though of as food. ;) That and feeding is stress along with handling right after feeding which would be more likely to cause a regurge. I could be wrong but that's what I gather from other posts I have read.

Moving them to eat is not necessary. They will not get cage aggressive. It adds stress of being moved after they eat. Especially in Manasha's case I would feed them in their homes.

Thank you!


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