Hardened yolks, hard belly, mass in Ball python hatchlings

This topic comes up each year around April/May, as farmed baby Balls start being available, and occasionally is occurs in u.s.c.b. babies as well.

The issue is a hatchling Ball python that has a hardened mass in the belly. This can vary in size, but it is typically significant and bulky.

Speculation is that this mass is a hardened yolk. As you can see in the pictures, the mass itself is a pinkish meaty substance. I would think a hardened yolk would have a different look to it. In the end, I still don't know what it is, or what causes it, but it is often referred to as a "hardened yolk".

This hardened mass prevents normal movement or locomotion in the hatchling, it completely blocks the GI tract, and the baby won't be able to eat, nor survive, without removing it. The longer you wait, the less likely you are to have a successful outcome. They will NOT pass it on their own, and instead only grow weaker and more dehydrated as days go by.

Unless a vet has specifically dealt with that in the past, successfully, it is unlikely they would be all that helpful, so I wouldn't recommend a vet visit as a matter of course.

You see this condition every season in the farmed baby balls from Africa. Less than 1% of those babies have the issue. Even more rare is to see it in u.s.c.b. hatchlings.

The hatchlings with the hard belly are often odd patterned and visually exciting, which leads to even more disappointment when they pass. They often have smaller or misshapen heads as well (as evidenced in this narrow head hatchling). These structure and pattern issues lead me to believe this is an underlying development issue.

Sometimes you can use your thumb to carefully pass the mass through the vent, and sometimes while doing that it splits the baby right up the middle as it passes. Sometimes it is too big to start the pass at all. It is never a fun thing to deal with.

Splitting the belly of the animal is a LIKELY occurrence when you are trying to pass the mass. Please be mentally prepared for this horror (exactly what it is) and be ready to quickly dispatch the animal at this point. This is the very ugly and sad side of animal propagation, it is important to end the suffering of the hatchling immediately at this point.

Once you have passed it, the baby will have a completely hollowed out appearance. Never is the trauma of the experience more apparent than at this point, as you hold and examine the completely empty (and vacuumed) body cavity of the hatchling.

Even after a successful pass, the hatchling is unlikely to eat on its own. I would say only 10-20% live more than 2 months after the pass of the hard mass.

Culling these hard belly animals before attempting the pass is not an irresponsible choice. It is an incredible uphill battle for the animal to not just survive, but thrive. The potential trauma of the pass is extreme. But there is no future with leaving the mass in place and "hoping for the best" either.

This particular hatchling did recover and after some assist feeding with rat pups, did grow and feed on its own.

Best of luck to anyone that has to deal with this unpleasant situation.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo1.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo2.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo3.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo4.jpg

Continued picture series:

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo5.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo6.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo7.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo8.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo9.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo10.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/34photo11.jpg

Thank you for the post Robyn, the pictures alone speak volumes.

Thanks Robyn! Not something at all that we like to think of, much less see, but there's much to be said for at least being informed of the possible downsides and troublesome occurrences of breeding.

thanks for the info

Thanks for sharing, this post is so informative and honestly, became an eye opener for most keepers like me who's not familiar w/ hard belly. So how's the hatchling on the picture doin right now?

These pics are old, maybe 2003? After our facility fire, we don't have any more snakes at all.

It is almost inconceivable that that huge pink mass came out of that baby. My goodness it's easily half the body mass of that hatchling.

Thank you very much for posting this Robyn, as a beginning breeder, I need and want to know what can go wrong, so I am prepared when the inevitable does happen. The bad things that happen during breeding of any animal is not something most people want to think about, but if you are informed, you can be prepared. And if you are prepared, then both the hatchling and yourself are more likely to survive the experience.

Gale

To the best of your knowledge has this mass occurred in any other species?? Has it occurred in colubrids or boas? Since boas give birth to live young, I wonder if that would be possible.

Thank you for posting this! I can only imagine how difficult this must be to deal with. I appreciate your willingness to publicize this information.

So has anyone done histopathology on this mass to see what it is??? If you have such a low survival rate...why are you doing anything to an animal that has the potential to "split it up the middle"? Or if they survive being squeezed they get to starve to death unless force fed. Torture before death. Great. Really? You realize this bit of tissue is likely adhered to the wall of the intestine/bowel and then you are tearing through the intestine/bowel, through the body wall and the skin when you "split them open"

Why not just HUMANELY euthanise the animal when you notice the issue. I don't care what kind of farming is going on...even large animal farmers use veterinarians, and since the year is now 2012 there are options available to treat and/or euthanise. This is like saying, oh, my newborn puppy has a lump in the belly, so I sqeezed the lump and and OOPs, the belly split open, quick, kill it now" Just because a snake cant scream doesn't mean its not in pain. And to inform other people how to do this??? Lets start a snake splitting forum! Disgusting, irresponsible, horrible

Wow, that is your first post here?

Anyway, the reason to do it seems to be that you may save the animal. Low survival rate is not zero survival. If we did it your way, you would instantly cull them without giving a chance for survival?

IF it was simply an issue of adherence to the GI tract, then they would prolapse and bleed to death via the vent. The splitting actually likely occurs related to the size and shape of the mass.

Herpsss, I applaud your strong opinion here, but I think your anger in misplaced. Welcome to BP.net, and I suggest a proper introduction in the proper section. :D

Herpsss, great way to show your knowledge on YOUR FIRST POST:cool:
Old wise words: "Sometimes it is better not to speak and appear knowledgeable than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" ;)

Herpsss does have a good point. Although I appreciate Robyn's thread in that it describes this unfortunate occurrence, I don't agree with Robyn's comment :

Quote:

---

Unless a vet has specifically dealt with that in the past, successfully, it is unlikely they would be all that helpful, so I wouldn't recommend a vet visit as a matter of course.

---

I recently had to deal with my first hard-belly, and chose to operate on the snake myself. I believe most knowledgeable vets would be more skilled and better equipped than dealing with hard-belly than I was, but I still managed to save his life and he is currently thriving. If I had followed the advice given in this thread, my snake would most likely have died. The hard-belly lump that I extracted was quite a bit larger than the one in the picture and never would have passed through his cloaca.

I'm not opposed to people trying to gently pass the mass out of the cloaca, but if it doesn't work I wouldn't suggest forcing it to the point of tearing the snake. Instead, I would advise seeking out professional help to surgically remove the mass.

Here's the link which describes my experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Herpsss

So has anyone done histopathology on this mass to see what it is???

---

My thoughts exactly, I know the pics are old but were there or have any labs been done to try and find out what it is and or what may cause it? If not by the Op then hopefully someone else can chime in. Possibly leading to how or whether it can be prevented or if it's genetic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xdeus

Herpsss does have a good point. Although I appreciate Robyn's thread in that it describes this unfortunate occurrence, I don't agree with Robyn's comment :

I recently had to deal with my first hard-belly, and chose to operate on the snake myself. I believe most knowledgeable vets would be more skilled and better equipped than dealing with hard-belly than I was, but I still managed to save his life and he is currently thriving. If I had followed the advice given in this thread, my snake would most likely have died. The hard-belly lump that I extracted was quite a bit larger than the one in the picture and never would have passed through his cloaca.

I'm not opposed to people trying to gently pass the mass out of the cloaca, but if it doesn't work I wouldn't suggest forcing it to the point of tearing the snake. Instead, I would advise seeking out professional help to surgically remove the mass.

Here's the link which describes my experience.

---

I can see how that would rub you wrong, my apologies for casting such a broad net. I thought it was already getting too wordy.

There are some great vets out there, and some with solid reptile experience, no doubt. But the majority of vet visit stories I see are with vets that have little to no reptile experience, and end up performing procedures (for a fee) that have little relevance to proper captive husbandry or reptile recovery.

The local vet we use takes the same approach we do, and would have a solid chance of success, as you did. But I think he (and you) are the exception, not the rule.

As for Herpsss- awesome first post! What is your other user name here at BPnet? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

I can see how that would rub you wrong, my apologies for casting such a broad net. I thought it was already getting too wordy.

There are some great vets out there, and some with solid reptile experience, no doubt. But the majority of vet visit stories I see are with vets that have little to no reptile experience, and end up performing procedures (for a fee) that have little relevance to proper captive husbandry or reptile recovery.

The local vet we use takes the same approach we do, and would have a solid chance of success, as you did. But I think he (and you) are the exception, not the rule.

---

I agree with you that a large number of vets having limited reptile experience. One of the reasons why I decided to perform the procedure myself was because of a negative (and costly) experience I had with a local exotic animal vet in our area. However, I believe it is probably worth the time to research the vets in your area to make that determination before you attempt the procedure you suggested. Many vets are capable, and even if they do not have the experience dealing with hard-belly, I imagine many vets would be willing to listen to their customers when it comes to procedural advice. Vets at least have the proper equipment, training, and skill to perform a relatively simple procedure. If caught early enough, I believe the snake has a much better chance of survival if operated on than if someone tried to push out a large mass that would injure the snake.

Herpsss, Interesting first post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Herpsss

You realize this bit of tissue is likely adhered to the wall of the intestine/bowel and then you are tearing through the intestine/bowel, through the body wall and the skin when you "split them open"

---

What facts do you have to back up this statement? What makes you think that anything that can be moved down the intestinal tract with gentle pressure is adhered to the intestine wall?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Herpsss

Lets start a snake splitting forum! Disgusting, irresponsible, horrible

---

Hyperbole much :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slim

Herpsss, Interesting first post.



What facts do you have to back up this statement? What makes you think that anything that can be moved down the intestinal tract with gentle pressure is adhered to the intestine wall?




Hyperbole much :rolleyes:

---

Must be one of those "Normal" people we see in Walmart lmao!

Herpsss you cant just come in here trying to start crap bud. Rubbing everyone the wrong way on your first post is just asking for trouble.

He One-Starred the thread as "terrible" and then skidaddled.

LOL.

Hey guys...let's not turn a difference of opinion into a game of who can throw out the most clever insults.

Yes, it's quite obvious the "Herpsss" person signed up with the sole purpose of bashing this thread. That can be pointed out without childish insults or borderline name calling that skirted the line only because no one wants the infraction points. :P And so long as "Herpsss" isn't breaking any rules (that we know of) then he/she is free to register and post their opinion like anyone else. There's no rule that says they have to agree with the majority to sign up and participate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xdeus

Herpsss does have a good point. Although I appreciate Robyn's thread in that it describes this unfortunate occurrence, I don't agree with Robyn's comment :

I recently had to deal with my first hard-belly, and chose to operate on the snake myself. I believe most knowledgeable vets would be more skilled and better equipped than dealing with hard-belly than I was, but I still managed to save his life and he is currently thriving. If I had followed the advice given in this thread, my snake would most likely have died. The hard-belly lump that I extracted was quite a bit larger than the one in the picture and never would have passed through his cloaca.

I'm not opposed to people trying to gently pass the mass out of the cloaca, but if it doesn't work I wouldn't suggest forcing it to the point of tearing the snake. Instead, I would advise seeking out professional help to surgically remove the mass.

Here's the link which describes my experience.

---

I have a bit of confusion about your argument, Lawrence. On the one hand, you disapprove of Robyn's statement saying that a vet probably can't help....then you turn around and tell everyone about how YOU also did not seek out a vet, but chose to operate on the animal yourself. :confused: ....because you knew a vet couldn't help? How is slicing open an animal, removing something from its insides, and then sewing it up any less risky than the procedure that Robyn illustrated here?

This article is not going to start an epidemic of people splitting open baby ball python bellies. But maybe it will help those RARE folks who run across this phenomenon for the first time and come looking for information. They can read what is there and then decide for themselves how much risk they want to take. Robyn does not downplay the risk involved...in fact, he spells it out very graphically.

Some will follow "Herpsss" lead and just euthanize right off the bat.
Some will try what Robyn has shown.
Some may try to operate themselves.
Some will seek out a vet to help.
Some will just let the animal die on its own without any intervention on their part.

It's ALWAYS going to be down to those choices, and all this thread does is give folks more information to help them choose their path...it does nothing to encourage or discourage any one of them.

That is how I see this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

I have a bit of confusion about your argument, Lawrence. On the one hand, you disapprove of Robyn's statement saying that a vet probably can't help....then you turn around and tell everyone about how YOU also did not seek out a vet, but chose to operate on the animal yourself. :confused: ....because you knew a vet couldn't help? How is slicing open an animal, removing something from its insides, and then sewing it up any less risky than the procedure that Robyn illustrated here?

---

I'm sorry if I didn't make it more clear. The reason I didn't have a vet operate on my snake is because I had recently spent a small fortune and ended up losing a snake because the vet did not want to listen to my advice on an eggbound snake. This was supposedly the best herp vet in the area.

However, I did know the limitations and the flexibility of my local vet when the hard-belly situation came up which is why I decided to operate on the snake myself. I would encourage anyone with a snake that had hard-belly to seek out a vet before trying to squeeze it out of the snake or perform the surgery themselves. I can guarantee you that if I had followed the advice of Robyn my snake would be dead today.

The procedure that I performed wasn't exactly as primitive as you put it. I performed essentially the same operation that a vet would have after extensive research, and obviously it turned out well for me. If I had tried squeezing out the mass from my snake, I am sure it would have suffered severe trauma and a painful death.

Hello, first time on here :)

I'm Beth, and this really peaked my interest since it posed a serious threat, although small incidence, to the well being of many hatchling snakes in the community. I just have a few questions that I'd love answered if anyone knows.

First off, are there any abnormalities with other hatchlings within the clutch or in environment of the eggs? Ex. humidity, heat, etc. Also, has anyone had multiple cases of this in eggs from the same lines/parents?

And if any are available, I'd love a sample of the mass and would pay fully for shipping. Of course it'd have to be very fresh and cooled for transit, that ways we can look at the cells and possibly determine the manner of the cells and what type they are. I'll be discussing this topic with some DVMs I know, and even though they aren't too well known they're very faithful in their practise. Hopefully with further investigation a solution can be found and an article on this disease published to better educate the public. Any more information or sources would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falconrygal

First off, are there any abnormalities with other hatchlings within the clutch or in environment of the eggs? Ex. humidity, heat, etc. Also, has anyone had multiple cases of this in eggs from the same lines/parents?

---

Hi Beth,

Unfortunately I can't answer all of your questions, but I'll try my best with the ones I can. I have been breeding for almost 6 years now, and I've only had one hatchling with hard-belly. I have close to 95+% hatch rate on my clutches (other than the slugs that I try to hatch). The clutch that this hard-belly occurred all came out fine except for this one snake. I have a very controlled incubator in it's own room so there is very little temperature or humidity fluctuation, and I try not to disturb the eggs very much during the incubation. I also allow most of my snakes to pip on their own instead of cutting the eggs in advance, so the snake that had hard-belly wasn't "pressured" into hatching earlier than it should have.

The sire of this clutch was a Piebald and the dame was a Cinnamon that had produced two other clutches for me in the past with no issues. The Piebald that produced this clutch also produced another clutch with a Pastel that had no issues. I still have the Piebald that I am still breeding, but I have since sold the Cinnamon.

Hopefully my answers were of some help and good luck with your research!

Thank you so much for posting this Robyn!! My friend owns a small local pet store and usually gets a couple of young BPs every few weeks from a local breeder. I've always questioned the quality of animals he gets from this guy...in fact, I think he's being ripped off half the time. Once the guy sends him snakes with mites and won't let him return them once I pointed it out to him, and now he has sent him two neonates. They literally just hatched within the last couple of days as they have yet to have their very first sheds, nor have they eaten.He won't sell any young snakes until they've eaten on their own at least three times, so he should have these little monsters for a few weeks at least.

I took them out of the cage to check them out (as I like to do whenever he gets new snakes), and one of the babies looks exactly like the pictures you posted and has a very hard belly. There is also something that looks akin to stuck urates on her cloaca. I never would have known anything was wrong with her if I hadn't read this just a couple of days ago.

My friend was convinced they were CBB from this breeder, but I'm beginning to wonder. Both are absolutely beautiful normals with tons of blushing (and so tiny!). One is healthy and is beginning his first shed today, while the other has the hard belly. I told my friend that since he doesn't know how to deal with it, nor does he have the funds to take it to someone who does, he should swap it out with the breeder. I feel so bad for the little thing. It's a sweetheart. :( And unbelievably beautiful coloration too.

Anyway, thank you for posting this info! I can't believe that I already had the opportunity to apply the knowledge! :gj:

Wow, I didn't even realize this post was so recent. I actually found it the other day on google while researching this very problem. I didn't look at the date, but it was posted just in time! Robyn, thank you so much for this useful post, it helped us a LOT tonight with two of our balls. Very scary stuff, but it worked just like you said and now we're just hoping and praying our balls won't be another statistic.

Also, just like you said, three of our balls (one died in the egg the other day) with this issue had very funky patterns and narrow heads. Not sure what went wrong or what caused it, but we would be lost without this post. :gj:

The internet is an amazing thing : )

Glad to hear of your success, continued luck to you!

Thank you for the information.. Sad to read but something that we all might come across :(

I know this is an old thread but my balls just had their eggs hatch and the first one to come out has something similar to the op's description. He has a small head and his belly seems a bit bloated. There is not a hard mass though so I am hoping this is not the same thing.

thanks for the post glad the little runt did OK! it is a good thing for any novice or professional breeder to read and know

I realize im late to the party but i would like to say because i didnt see anyone else say it in the replys i read,

it was kind of obvious that robyns snakes hard bell wasnt that big, it was long but ive seen some where its like 3-4X the snakes width, so i would say if u think that ur snake can pass it with help it will probably be okay, but this wouldnt work for every snake as every hard yolk is different,

so i would take it on a case by case basis.