Need advice about heating a 4' wide tank

I have a divided 75g tank/vivarium to heat. The bottom is glass and 18"x48". I'm buying 2' of 11" flex watt and putting this in the center of the tank. Will likely need to be cut down to 16" to make it 1/3 the length of the tank. But I want to test it at a full 2' length first because the tank is going to be directly under an AC vent (altho the vent not pointed at the tank).

Anyway, I know I'm going to need two misters (one for each side) because maintaining humidity isn't going to be easy.

So here's my questions.

I was originally going to put the single piece of flexwatt in the middle (under the tank) and control it with a single thermostat for both halves, but since the tank will be split in half (with plexiglass) should I split the flexwatt and control them separately?

And knowing the above, what thermostat/humidistat would be the best to handle all of this? (two heaters, two misters)

I've looked at hygrotherm and herpstat 2 & 4. Two hygrotherms would be cheaper than a single herpstat4. But is there some advantage over getting a herpstat4 that's worth the $250 difference? I do want a solution that will last for many years. Are they both as good quality?

How far away from a wooden stand should the tank be to prevent this from becoming a fire hazard? I've read about someone taping styrofoam against the flexwatt underneath. Is that not dangerous??

Aaand finally. Is there something I can put between the tank and wooden stand to fireproof the stand?

Thanks!!


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Oh the hygrotherm has a single sensor doesn't it. :(. That's not gonna work.


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I don't agree with your choice of enclosure, and based on this thread it sounds like you've chosen to ignore a lot of advice. Also based on the previous thread, I don't think you're changing your mind. For the sake of your animals doing best with what they've got:

1. I do not believe misters are advisable or necessary for a ball python. There are a number of other ways you can go about raising the humidity, so I'd see what the humidity is at with the final enclosure before you pick a way to raise it. My humidity literally stays at 35-40% in my room and my snakes have perfect sheds. I rotate in humid hides when I see their belly go pink and remove it after they shed. There are lots of threads here about them.

2. If you place a 2 foot segment of tape in the middle of 48 inches, there is only a foot of unheated space in each tank. That's not good. What is the ambient temp. of the room or tank and how do you maintain that? The flexwatt is NOT good at raising ambient temps and the snakes only really sit directly on the tape when they're digesting.

3. I'm sure someone will post about the thermostats, but I use a Vivarium Electronics VE-200. I believe this is more than reliable enough. I also use a $25 dollar HydroFarm thermostat set 5 degrees higher than my VE-200 as a failsafe. The stat fails and the hot spot goes unregulated-> hits 5 degrees higher and the other stat kicks in until I notice the problem.

4. The corners of the tank need to be raised to allow airflow under the tank and so the cord to the flexwatt doesn't get pinched. If properly regulated, the flexwatt won't get much hotter than your hand, so the odds of it spontaneously igniting the stand are low. That said, for safety, I'm sure there is a product you can use to make it safer. Styrofoam sounds like a bad idea.

I agree with MrLang. Currently my BP is in a glass tank 36x12x18. The screen top is covered by foil for all but maybe 4-6 inches on the hot side. I bought a repti fogger for misting which was a waste. I thought it would help with humidity but it's useless when it's on it's lowest setting the side it enters spikes the humidity drastically before doing anything to the other side. I have a 8x12 UTH for the hot side. Since the tank is so tall I have a 60w IR heat lamp which runs all the time and maintains 89-92 ambient on the hot side. I have a 100w ceramic heat emitter in the center which is on a thermostat and warms the middle and cool side to 77-80. When the room temperature rises above 75 then the 60W IR is eliminated and only the ceramic is enough to maintain the tank. Humidity is done through a spray bottle a few times a day for the time being.

Now I just finished a 3 tub rack utilizing 4" flex watt. The tubs is about 22x16x7. This is a small enclosure and while testing it out the hot side hit 90 and the cool side raised about 1 degree above ambient if that. I am currently searching online for a room heater before the final set up and the BP is transferred over. Mind you this tub is fully enclosed and the flex watt did nothing for the cool side. As for humidity I had reptibark so added some cypress (apparently waaaaay too much) Humidity hit 99% so the substrate needs to be re-worked too.

As for the A/C vent I would close it off and cover it if possible. Remember cold air drops. A good residential A/C system drops the temperature 15-20 degrees. That means if your home is 72 the air coming out would be 57-62 degrees. :O

Please abandon the idea of using this monstrosity of a tank. It is utterly ill suited for ball pythons. Either trade your BPs for a really nice corn snake, or PM me your info and I'll mail you the $25 you just can't seem to bring yourself to spend on a couple of proper tubs.

I'm not even kidding about paying for your tubs. Hell, I'll have them drop shipped from Target. Just PM me your address. This tank idea is a train wreck waiting to happen.

EDIT: I've repeatedly watched you ignore good advise. Will you ignore an offer made it good faith as well? Think of the children (snakes).

I don't have time for a long response right now but thank you for the responses.

Just wanted to say real quick that I thought the humidity needed to be higher than 30%. The humidity in a 55g without divider or foil treated screen top at my house right now is 35% on the hot side. If a mister is a waste and no good, then great. I didn't want to have to use them anyway. But I want to make sure humidity is perfect at all times.

I chose flexwatt because it can be cut down from 2' to whatever the length I need to have the proper warm side, cool side.

If flexiwatt can't help ambient temp, is there another UTH that can? Or do I have no choice but to use heat lamp?

The overhead lights I built for my planted tank has 4 bulbs. The front 2 are controlled separately from the back 2. Do heat bulbs only come in screw-in form?

I've only explained plans for heating here not anything else. Yes I am choosing to stick with the glass enclosure despite advice to use plastic tubs. But that doesn't mean I'm ignoring the needs of the snakes. I'm going to try to make this work but if at the end of the day I see that temps, humidity, etc, are not suitable, then I will ditch it all and go back to the drawing board.

I won't make my snakes stay in dangerous situations while I work on this, trust me. They are both being well taken care of now with good temps.

I just want to discuss heating and thermostats right now.

I haven't read the second response completely. I'll come back later.

Thx.
-T


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Hey slim, just saw your response. Can you or someone give me a good reason why a glass tank divided, with walls covered except for the front with good temps and humidity is still so frowned upon? Sorry that I seem so stubborn about this. I just haven't heard a god argument against it that would convince me that plastic is better than glass. All other things being equal.

If I heard a compelling argument, I would ditch my tank in a heartbeat.




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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

If I heard a compelling argument, I would ditch my tank in a heartbeat.

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While I have my doubts about this statement, here goes nothing...

Glass tanks are notoriously hard to maintain a proper temp gradient in without killing the humidity...and that's in a 20 gallon long. In a tall tank like a 75 gallon you have a better chance of successfully breeding female Desert ball pythons. Your snakes will not take advantage of that tank height, and the extra volume that you will have to heat and keep humid will create no end of problems. Something will always be out of balance.

To create the heat you need you will have to use some type of UTH on a thermostat. This is for the belly heat your snakes need. However, no matter what type of UTH you choose, it will not affect the ambient temp in the tank. Sooooo, you'll find yourself using heat lamps or a CHE to keep the proper ambient temp gradient. Both of which kill your humidity.

At this point you have decent temps and crap for humidity. Sooooo, you start trying to find a way to raise the humidity. You try bottle misting, covering part of the top of the tank, 17 different substrates, wet towels over the top, an automatic misting system and gawd knows what else. But the fundamental reality of it is that you are heating and humidifying TOO MUCH VOLUME in the tank.

But let's say you get the heat and humidity to balance out through some miracle of man and science...now it's time to clean the tank. The 75 GALLON TANK...the one that weighs slightly less than a 1972 Volkswagen SuperBeetle. You have to take everything out, completely scrub every silicone gooped nook and cranny...Then start the whole heat / humidity balancing process over again. And let's not forget that the primary passangers on this Heat & Humidity Roller Coaster that the cool kids call, "It's A Small RI After All", will be your snakes.

And, in the end, when it’s all said and done, your ball pythons still won’t be display snakes, and would still have a much better chance of thriving in a simple RubberMade tub set-up from Target.

So, I've shown you mine, now show me yours. What is your compelling argument for putting your snakes in this inappropriate enclosure?

Gotcha. I still want something with a glass front. Are there Vivs out there that are good for balls but still have a glass front?


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PVC Cages from Animal Plastics. Do a search. Lots of info on this Forum about them.

Slim. I'm o. A hurry here today so sorry for not having read your question at the bottom. I have only two reasons for wanting glass. #1) I have it already #2) I want a glass front. That's it.


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Thanks. I'll look it up.


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If I wanted the display which is what it seems you want then animal plastics or something of the same style would be great. Most offer a divider so you can house two snakes. I would suggest using a radiant heat panel for ambients since it shouldn't dry out like the heat lamps do.

Hrmm. So do these 48" long cages hold just one snake or two? Are those the ones that have the dividers? I'm about to puke I'm so sick of talk about dividers. But would those dividers block disease? Would it be best to go with two separate 24" cages.

Almost wish I didn't have the tanks at all so I would have seen these ages ago.
I like them!


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

I have a divided 75g tank/vivarium to heat. The bottom is glass and 18"x48". I'm buying 2' of 11" flex watt and putting this in the center of the tank. Will likely need to be cut down to 16" to make it 1/3 the length of the tank. But I want to test it at a full 2' length first because the tank is going to be directly under an AC vent (altho the vent not pointed at the tank).

Anyway, I know I'm going to need two misters (one for each side) because maintaining humidity isn't going to be easy.

So here's my questions.

I was originally going to put the single piece of flexwatt in the middle (under the tank) and control it with a single thermostat for both halves, but since the tank will be split in half (with plexiglass) should I split the flexwatt and control them separately?

And knowing the above, what thermostat/humidistat would be the best to handle all of this? (two heaters, two misters)

I've looked at hygrotherm and herpstat 2 & 4. Two hygrotherms would be cheaper than a single herpstat4. But is there some advantage over getting a herpstat4 that's worth the $250 difference? I do want a solution that will last for many years. Are they both as good quality?

How far away from a wooden stand should the tank be to prevent this from becoming a fire hazard? I've read about someone taping styrofoam against the flexwatt underneath. Is that not dangerous??

Aaand finally. Is there something I can put between the tank and wooden stand to fireproof the stand?

Thanks!!


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It's do-able, but putting all the elements of heating and humidity is going to be hard work.

1) Misters are bad. They seem to put out too much moisture at a given time. Most of the time everything becomes soaked or turned into a 'rain forest' type of environment. Definitely not for an African native snake. Also, the huge amounts of moisture tends to promote scale rot.

2)flexwatt in the middle will work for belly heat. You can probably use one thermostat this way. Just make sure to get a thermometer for each side of the divider.(Not the stick on dial kind. Digital is the best)

However, like everyone else said, depending on what temperature your ambient temp is, the rest of the tank is most likely going to be too cold unless you have a Heat Emitter or Lamp. Anything under 75 has the potential to give a snake Respiratory Infection.

3) Hygrotherm is not as precise, accurate, or reliable as a Herpstat or other higher end brands. The risk of failing is much higher. A good quality thermostat is THE most important piece of equipment for your set up. It's what keeps your snake alive by regulating it's heat source. Plus a high quality thermostat will have a longer running life than cheaper brands. It's a good investment that will last you years.

4) Styrofoam is bad because it traps and retains heat. By trapping heat, the thermostat reader is most likely not going to run accurately as it is reading the incorrect temperature. This will keep the flexwatt cooler than what it's suppose to be because the thermostat is thinking it's hot.

5) You need a space between the tank and stand. I think wooden blocks or spacers will work fine. (like 2 pieces of wood running across 2 sides under the tank or something. That way there is enough air flow)

But I agree with everyone that maintaining such a great tank will be difficult.
You have better luck with a pre-made vivarium.

Check this Animal Plastics Cage set up Thread:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...l+plastic+cage

It has the aesthetics of a tank. There is no screen top so no lost humidity. It's made out of PVC so it holds humidity and heat really well. It comes with a SOLID divider. You can use flexwatt down the middle like you wanted to. And it's low(T8 model). No wasted head space. Balls don't need a lot of height space as they are a terrestrial snake. If I had more space in my room and didn't have a rack, I would buy this cage for my snakes. Glass tanks are just too much work to clean. I had a 20 gallon tank before and I just had the hardest time lifting it (Empty!)

The radiant heat panel is an option that will benefit if your house is too cold.

I would PM The Serpent Merchant if you have any questions about Animal Plastics Cages.

Is one T8 the recommended size for 2 snakes? What about the taller ones like T9 and T10 ?

T11 seems too tall.

I want to get this done by Friday. How fast do they ship?

Anybody in s. Florida like to buy a 75g aquarium? Lol!


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

Is one T8 the recommended size for 2 snakes? What about the taller ones like T9 and T10 ?

T11 seems too tall.

I want to get this done by Friday. How fast do they ship?

Anybody in s. Florida like to buy a 75g aquarium? Lol!


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I would talk to Aaron (The Serpent Merchant). He has 2 different models and seems to be our forum expert on these cages. haha.

I hear they ship relatively fast. But the order comes in 2 shipments. One for the enclosure and one for the glass door and lights. (I believe)

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=cage+pictures

Alright. I'm scrapping the tanks and going with a PVC cage. I'm on a long ride back home now and so I'm trying to get it all planned out in the next few hours. ;)

I'm so excited!! Lol!

So I'm thinking of going with the T10, black, with swing out doors, pop in/out divider, and door locks (kids).

Two undecided things; heating and lighting.

Lighting: I want lighting, but would a fluorescent light throw off the temps in there? Or should I go with LED??

Heating: radiant heat panels sounds more like what I need to get ambient heat. The basicreptiles site says that a 40 watt rhp is good for a 2'x4'x1'. But this won't work in a divided tank, right? I'm gonna need one for each side. In a 2'x4'x15" cage, will I need two 28 watt rhps?

I also want to use a thin layer if substrate on the bottom.



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One other thing. My male likes to climb. He usually climbs up on a hammock I threw into the 55g on the cool side. But everything I've read says balls don't like to climb. So why does he climb so much? Thx!


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Sometimes if they're too active it's a sign of stress. A hiding ball python is a healthy ball python. This is why so many people are trying to let you know that BPs are inherently not display animals. Once you get all this stuff straight, you'll never see your snake unless you're up in the middle of the night or feeding/handling... and that's a good thing.

Glad to see good decisions being made

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

One other thing. My male likes to climb. He usually climbs up on a hammock I threw into the 55g on the cool side. But everything I've read says balls don't like to climb. So why does he climb so much? Thx!


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He may be climbing to make an escape attempt or he may feel more secure in the hammock than in thee hides he has on the ground. Balls will often take security over comfort.

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I know balls hide. When I used to go to the herp stores it was common to not see a thing in a display labeled ball python. My male doesn't hide much. My female did. Which has actually made me worried for the male of late.

I like a glass front because it's easy to look in and see what's going on. Even if it's not much. I'm OK with that. From what I've read it may take a while for these PVC cages to arrive. I'm doing to get tubs for the my snakes tomorrow. In order to get heating quickly, like tomorrow, I'll have to go back to the herp store. No idea what options I'm going to find there.


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Go with the T8 with sliding glass doors. The extra height does nothing for BP's. The sliding glass doors are bigger than the swing doors (so you can see in better) plus the swind doors are made from plastic which means that they will warp and scratch easily. Plus the T8 with sliding glass doors ships in about a week vs 6 weeks for most other T series cages.

To heat the cage the flexwatt belly heat should be enough alone unless your room stays below 70 degrees. In which case you will want to get a radiant heat panel.

For lighting the cage just get the white floressent lights sold by AP. if you are using the divider then you will need to get 2 lights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manasha-Bogo

Alright. I'm scrapping the tanks and going with a PVC cage. I'm on a long ride back home now and so I'm trying to get it all planned out in the next few hours. ;)

I'm so excited!! Lol!

So I'm thinking of going with the T10, black, with swing out doors, pop in/out divider, and door locks (kids).

Two undecided things; heating and lighting.

Lighting: I want lighting, but would a fluorescent light throw off the temps in there? Or should I go with LED??

Heating: radiant heat panels sounds more like what I need to get ambient heat. The basicreptiles site says that a 40 watt rhp is good for a 2'x4'x1'. But this won't work in a divided tank, right? I'm gonna need one for each side. In a 2'x4'x15" cage, will I need two 28 watt rhps?

I also want to use a thin layer if substrate on the bottom.



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Yes if you are using a divider in the tank you will need 2 radiant heat panels. The 28 watt would be best.

The fluorescent lights do raise the cage temps slightly but not enough to worry about.

As I said in my previous post. The T8 would be better than a T10. If for no other reason the fact that you can get a T8 6 times faster + it's cheaper

Thanks I wasn't sure if I should go with a T8 or T10 so was going to err on side of bigger size.

I liked the sliding doors at first because I read a couple people's experience feeding their snakes were easier with the sliding doors. But I also read that the snake could get stuck between the glass and the cage. Since my sakes are so small, is there something I should use to stop them from wedging themselves in this area?

OK, so I think I have everything i need on this list...

- One T8 (48w x 12t x 24d) with sliding glass doors, 1 lock, 2 lights, 1 divider.
- Two Reptile Basics 28 Watt Radiant Heat Panels.
- One Herpstat 2.
- Two small hides (the ones I have are too big).

I keep reading that the pvc cage could take a bit to arrive; "weeks" according to some posts. So for a short term solution, I'm gathering the following:

- Two 15qt plastic bins with covers (got them tonight).
- Heating... not sure yet. I think heat cables is in order here which I can get at the local hardware store (Lowe's or Home Depot), but I have no idea what size, how to stick it to the tub without creating a fire hazard or if I need a thermostat. (common sense says yes?)

I watched a video a couple days ago on how to make a "rub" as the British call it, but I can't find it to save my life. I'll probably find it before anyone answers, but where can I find instructions on setting up the plastic tub for a snake ?

I currently have 4 T8's, T12, and a T11 all with sliding glass doors. Yes snakes can get inbetween the glass but I have yet to have one get stuck. This is more a issue with Vision cages.

Your list looks good. And a T8 Will ship out in 10 days or less. Be warned that they don't ship the glass doors with the rest of the cage, they usually arrive 2 days later. This is so you can seal the cage (with the included sealant) and let it dry/air out.

sounds good. I still want to set up the plastic tubs for them because unless my female is still in bad shape, I want to bring her home.

This thread should show you everything to get a tub set up:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Basics...*DUW*

Flexwatt or any other commercial UTH is best for heating tubs. Heat cable is a huge pain. And yes a thermostat is needed.

thank you!!!!

The herpstat2 should arrive on wednesday.
Everything else has been ordered except for whatever I'm going to end up using to heat the tubs. I want to try to find that locally if possible.

Thank you everyone for helping me with this painful process. No doubt as painful for you as it has been for me. I think I'm finally on the right track here. And I'll consider all this worth while if my female survives although I'm sure the male will be happier soon too.
The fact that the female is gaining weight gives me hope.

It's no problem at all, you can get a UTH from just about any pet store. The ZooMed or Exo Tera ones should be fine.

I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know what the deal is with this female of yours, but if you even suspect that she is sick. I would keep her in the tub seperated from any other reptiles that you have for a minimum of 90 days. By following quarinetine procedures you can help ensure that your other reptiles don't get sick as well. Anything that comes into contact with the female shouldn't come into contact with any other reptiles. This includes you. I suggest working with quarinetine animals one day then working with the rest the next day.

As I said I haven't read through this entire thread so I don't know if this has already come up. Just want you and your BP's to have the best chances possible.

I only have 2, and they will remain separated. Thanks!