Just wondering if any of yall have input on why some people lie about genetics??

Hey all i'm starting to hear and see cases of people selling or trading bps as morphs or hets they are not... Most common so far is I have seen yellowbellies being called enchos, black pastels being labled as het hypo or hypo when there are no signs of hypo, not even clear sheds. I'm also hearing normals being called het og or pied or albinos.. This is a pointless practice that only ruins this hobby and wastes intire years of breeding. has anyone elce heard of this or been a victim of this practice? Please do not name names unless you have 100% proof. But i would just like to know how far this mislabling crap goes.. Thanks

There are horrible people in this world, and whenever there is a chance to get over on people they will. All I can say is do your homework the best you can on the animal your interested in along With the person your buying from. Honestly I would never buy a het unless it's from a very reputable breeder.

Welcome to the World of Ball Pythons...:gj:

All kidding aside...fake hets have been sold for probably almost as long as there have been hets to sell. Like in many areas of business and life, some people will jump at the chance to make a few extra bucks...ethics, morals and respect for the law not withstanding. I'm actually surprised that you seem rather taken aback by this.

Fake hets are a problem as old as the industry itself.

Colin Weaver wrote a interesting article on the subject: http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2010/11...-spoiled-milk/

The best way to avoid fakes is to only buy hets from breeders you trust or feel very confortable with based on their reputation.

That is why I don't buy hets or poss hets, Ill stick to visual morphs

They want to make money and don't care about their integrity.

It's to make a quick buck by scamming people. If the buyer doesn't do any research before they buy a het then they are being ignorant. This is a hobby that scammers prey on novice keepers. I don't buy any morph that I can't identify with 100% certainty. As for hets I will not buy them from anyone I don't trust, plain and simple.

I'm surprised you seem so angry and shocked. Money is a powerful motivator that drives people to do much more dishonest things than mirepresentation of an animal. As with anything in life, if you're spending money on something, you should be doing your research long before you intend to buy. With the way information is easily accessed through a few keystrokes there is honestly no need for impulsive buying now-a-days.

I would make sure someone was VERY trustable before I would purchase something that I can't see or touch.

I think it's pretty rare. We hear about the bad seeds but I've met a lot of great people in this hobby and I've never been burned.

Well, to be fair, some people are just uneducated. I used to breed cockatiels, and just like ball pythons, there are visuals and hets, and while there are PLENTY of people who will deliberately lie and sell a bird as something it is not, there are also a lot of people who just don't know any better.

Come on, be honest, how many of us have heard someone trying to pass off a het pastel, cinnamon, spider or something similar and when you tell them there is no such thing, they say that is what they were told.

I've heard people claim a normal was a het spider because one of it's parents was a spider, they just did not understand how the genetics work.

That being said, there are a lot of people out to make a quick buck, and will happily tell a prospective buyer whatever they think the buyer wants to hear to make the sale.

Since there is no way to visually identify a het of any kind, be it ghost, pied, albino, axanthic or any other recessive gene, you really have to know and trust the buyer when purchasing a het, because a het anything will look just like a normal.

Also, since there are many subtle morphs out there that look like normals, unless you know exactly what you are buying, you can get scammed. Spotnoses, sables, some fires, some vanillas, phantoms, specials, and mystics are just a few I can think of that most people cannot tell apart from a normal.

Your best bet is to know what you are looking for when you shop for a new ball, and know who you are buying it from.

Gale

It's a chain reaction that a lot of people get pulled into unknowingly. For instance: joe schmo sells a supposed 100% het pied to John Doe. John is a young person just starting out. He doesn't know how to research a potential seller/breeder. He doesn't belong to Bpnet or the fauna forums and has never heard of the BOI. He only hears his friends on FB talking about BP's, how cool they are, and how he can make $$ on them. He's also naive. Therefore he thinks he scored big buying a cheap het off of Craigslist with no real info.

He turns around and sells the snake to another person just like him but he believes he's selling an actual het. When things like this happen many people can get sc**wed and not know it.

This is why you only deal with people you can and have researched. Paperwork is worthless as anyone can create fake paperwork. It takes more than that. You have to check the BOI, Bpnet, etc.. Question other people who have done business with the seller and ask to see photos of the visual parent that produced the hets. It's very hard for other peoples photos to be stolen and used for this since there are some tried and true sleuths on the forums that can always find out if the photo is someone else's snake or not.

Really though, it doesn't even need to be that involved. Just buy from someone who is fairly well known that others will vouch for.





Snakes, Jeeps, Dragons, Nature, & Knives.. Makes my world go-round!

I've been around this hobby a pretty long time and have not really had any bad deals. I've bought plenty of hets and even possible hets that have proved out. But then again I always ask a lot of questions from the people I'm doing business with. There are people out there that really don't know very much about genetics. It's not because they're dishonest, it's because they're ignorant. So, I ask a lot of questions. Even questions that I already know the answers to, maybe especially questions that I already know the answers to since the answers you get back to basic questions will tell you a lot about the knowledge of the seller.

I guess I prefer to assume that people are honest until proven otherwise. And if you are planning on buying breeding stock without yourself having a firm grasp of how the genetics work, you've really got nobody to blame but yourself.

:) this is why I ended up designing my own Snake Pedigree program on my website :) It lets you put in any snake's id number and then see their "pedigree" page with the photos (up to 4 for each snake, usually 1-2 from right after hatching, and then the rest from later on in the snake's life), and then see the information (and picture with link to pedigree) to their dame and sire if I have them or they are in my collection, and will also show grand dames and grand sires when I finally have those ;)

Also, it shows any snakes who share either a dame or sire with the snake, and any offspring any of the snakes may have :)

I had to program it myself as I couldn't find anything like this out there

It's easy for people to be mistaken or to simply out right lie. I had someone try to tell me their bumblebee was actually a bumblebee spider... (it was just a regular bumblebee, pastel x spider, they just were wrong in the naming of it which made it sound like a "super spider" or something)

Most of you small to medium size breeders will offer signed genetic photographed DOC's guaranteeing the genetics.....I do with all my 100% hets...I do not offer it with 66% or 50% hets....no need to. Heck I had someone ask for genetic paperwork signed and a guarantee that bought a "Pewter" from me this last year...tried to explain she is a visual and a cross between a Cinny and a Pastel but she wanted it so she got it...pic of snake...laminated and had the hatch date and who the parents were signed and dated.
I agree with every post on here where you should always ask the questions needed to confirm the seller is selling what is advertised and if there is any doubt or sounds to good to be true "don't do it".
Example..I bought a 100% Dbl het Albino/Pied female 600 grams for $1300.00 last year...a lot of money for a Het....I was sent photo paperwork of the snake and the info of breeder he got it from...I called that breeder, very well known, asked him to look up the stock number on the snake and tell me the genetics of the snake..send me pics he put on the DOC's and to confirm the genetics....he confirmed it was what it was and I never even told him why I was asking till after he told me...
I would never buy a het anything for more than the price of a normal with out the proper DOCs to back it up...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

It's simple, really. Hets are worth more than normals. They make a quick buck and split.

That's why you demand paperwork or have a written contract assuring that the snake is what they say it is. That way if it turns out to not be what you bought it as, you can fight it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpartaDog

That's why you demand paperwork or have a written contract assuring that the snake is what they say it is.

---

Problem is paperwork is only as good as the seller is, anyone can make some quick paperwork ;)

The bottom line is to buy from someone REPUTABLE that will stand by there animals.

BTW many big breeders who sell hets do not provide any paperwork does not mean the animal will not prove out ;)

All my hets and possible hets came without any paperwork however I never had any doubt that the animals were the results of the described pairing, again the keyword is buying from someone reputable.

Exactly.. I never could figure out why some people won't buy a het without a fake ID you can make on your laptop..

KNOW the seller. Either personally, or through others, forums, past sales, how long they've been known in these corners of our hobby, etc..

Even the little guys like me have never had an issue selling hets. I will provide an ID if requested but otherwise, my word and my photos are enough.


<---Signature--->
Snakes, Jeeps, Dragons, Nature, & Knives.. Makes my world go-round!

Same reason some people will sell a car they know for a fact has major mechanical issues and not disclose the problems or even fix it just enough so you can't tell but not actually fix the problem. Its partly money and partly I think some people truly enjoy screwing people over, it gives them a sense of satisfaction that they successfully tricked someone.

I do believe there are a lot if people who are honest though. And then there are the ones like mentioned earlier that are just ill informed and trying to sell a product they don't really understand, which is also not good.

You just have to be careful trusting anyone you don't know and if you've heard anything bad about that persons integrity, really really think it through before giving them money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crazyj83

Hey all i'm starting to hear and see cases of people selling or trading bps as morphs or hets they are not... Most common so far is I have seen yellowbellies being called enchos, black pastels being labled as het hypo or hypo when there are no signs of hypo, not even clear sheds. I'm also hearing normals being called het og or pied or albinos.. This is a pointless practice that only ruins this hobby and wastes intire years of breeding. has anyone elce heard of this or been a victim of this practice? Please do not name names unless you have 100% proof. But i would just like to know how far this mislabling crap goes.. Thanks

---

Some people are only out to make $$$$$ and dont give a crap about the genetics of it. I absolutely will not pay extra for a het unless it is from a very reputable breeder or i see the parents i.e. the guy only owns a pied and a het pied. I have not been the victim of this as of yet but I was warned early in the game.

I have seen some weird examples of people who have a basically normal animal but so badly want it to BE SOMETHING that they convince themselves of something blatantly wrong. They make themselves look very bad, but at least it's obvious to most people that the picture is not of an enchi or a black pastel.

The hets thing, I think that's usually done with intent to deceive. Especially with possible hets you have to be careful, because so what if the animal NEVER proves? It was only a POSSIBILITY, after all! (...she says, even though she is selling a bunch of them. But the husband wants them out of the house! And I haven't got the heart to wholesale my very first clutch... Sigh.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loonunit

I have seen some weird examples of people who have a basically normal animal but so badly want it to BE SOMETHING that they convince themselves of something blatantly wrong. They make themselves look very bad, but at least it's obvious to most people that the picture is not of an enchi or a black pastel.

The hets thing, I think that's usually done with intent to deceive. Especially with possible hets you have to be careful, because so what if the animal NEVER proves? It was only a POSSIBILITY, after all! (...she says, even though she is selling a bunch of them. But the husband wants them out of the house! And I haven't got the heart to wholesale my very first clutch... Sigh.)

---

This is why possible hets only go for normal prices. Usually anyway. That being so, why would someone advertise a $30 BP as a poss het if it isn't and they KNOW it isn't? It's not like they're making and $$ off of it.


<---Signature--->
Snakes, Jeeps, Dragons, Nature, & Knives.. Makes my world go-round!