Has desert female breeding got anywhere?

Just wondering if any progress has been made on figuring out the desert female breeding problem?

anyone getting close?

Im sure if anyone successfully breeds a female there will be huge threads on almost every bp site on the web discussing it.

There's a problem with the desert females?

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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

There's a problem with the desert females?

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I actually :8:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Im sure if anyone successfully breeds a female there will be huge threads on almost every bp site on the web discussing it.

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I agree.... I hope it happens soon though!!

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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

There's a problem with the desert females?

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For some reason, nobody has come forward saying that they've successfully bred deserts. All that we know is that they haven't bred. With the amount of time deserts have been out, everyone is assuming that desert females are just infertile. Male deserts seem to get the job done just fine though :gj:.

That's it in a nutshell... If you want to know more, just do a search.

I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...there are too many breeders in th U.S. that have them in their collection, but not every breeder will share info on the internet.....as soon as some shows a pic of them on eggs you will see them pop up from every direction...
A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price. There has never ever been a female anything that cant reproduce so is the "Desert female" one of the wonders of the world....nope...just needs to be treated a little different than the normal Ball Python.
I just picked up a 650g female yestrday and looking for more at the right price because I know proof is coming soon and the information needed to have them reproduce.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...there are too many breeders in th U.S. that have them in their collection, but not every breeder will share info on the internet.....as soon as some shows a pic of them on eggs you will see them pop up from every direction...
A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price. There has never ever been a female anything that cant reproduce so is the "Desert female" one of the wonders of the world....nope...just needs to be treated a little different than the normal Ball Python.
I just picked up a 650g female yestrday and looking for more at the right price because I know proof is coming soon and the information needed to have them reproduce.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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What about the banana females only producing females, and rarely producing males? It's not impossible for an animal to be infertile. Sounds like a mutation. Spiders wobbling is a genetic trait that's passed down. Infertility could be the same thing. Who knows? I hope your desert female reproduces for you. They're awesome snakes, and their combos are sweet!

Bob Clark though the same thing with his Leusistic Burmese and she never did reproduce...he chalked it up to the Morph must make it infertile....yet now they produce them....
Same thing was said about Caramel BPs...like I stated to many large breeders are working with them and soon info will be posted on the secret to breeding them. I would be willing to say its a temp thing.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

There has been a person that has came forward and said that they were able to successfully breed a female desert. He just doesn't have any pictures. And he is doing something different than most as well. He only uses ambient temps. I wanna say in the low 80s. There is talk about it on the BLBC.

Also I disagree that they wouldn't come forward. If people successfully breed a desert it would be smart of them to come forward. That way the price of the females would jump back up, and people would stop considering it a useless morph. Unless they want to buy more females while the prices are still low.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Bob Clark though the same thing with his Leusistic Burmese and she never did reproduce...he chalked it up to the Morph must make it infertile....yet now they produce them....
Same thing was said about Caramel BPs...like I stated to many large breeders are working with them and soon info will be posted on the secret to breeding them. I would be willing to say its a temp thing.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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The notoriety around caramels wasn't about their infertility. Rather that they lay a lot of slugs and for some reason, they sometimes hatch with kinks.

Remember, we're dealing with speculation. Nobody is right or wrong. I agree with Driver. It would be unwise to keep it a secret. There's already many desert designer morphs.... Proving that females can breed would just make the price go back up, and hopefully we can see more combos...

Also... If they require some special temps to get them to breed, then that's an anomaly of its own! That would make it what you call a "wonder of the world" lol.

Exactly...buy while low....produce multiple clutches....release the info....make a heafty return on investment....not everyone does this as a hobbly like you and I...there is a huge business aspect to it....I will agree with you on the temp thing...heat can and will produce slugs....if you doubt me...keep Hognose at same temps as Ball Pythons and see how many fertile eggs you get...I did it this year with a female on her first clutch....got 12 eggs and only two fertile....I put her back into a colubrid enviroment as soon as she laid the first clutch and got 18 eggs second clutch 2 where infertile....
Travis
Lair of Dragons

At this point, I find that speculating that a Desert female can be fertile without PROOF is merely a desperate plea to keep prices up on what for many may be, or have been, a bad investment. I am sure that some folks have made some money off the gene, but prices are now rapidly and appropriately falling. Rumors will only serve to artificially keep prices afloat.

I hope someone does figure out something that is not more trouble than it is worth, but currently there is ZERO proof of a fertile Desert female.

I would pay a couple of hundred for a female as a interesting pet, and that is about it.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I would pay a couple of hundred for a female as a interesting pet, and that is about it.

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Same here, just not interested in all the drama at this point. There's no proof either way, until there is I'll wait till the prices drop. I really like how they look! Just not worth the price for the trouble and speculation

Deserts make some incredible morphs! Some of the best combinations i have ever seen its sad that it has come down to this. But they would make an incredible pet i would love to get my hands on a desert pin even better a desert blast.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price.

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And a few of those OLD SCHOOL guys you are referring to, are bailing out of this project, at least on the female side, and are redoubling their efforts to produce multi-gene morphs with the males. That should tell you something...

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

...buy while low....produce multiple clutches....release the info....make a heafty return on investment....

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This logic only floats if you are the only breeder to successfully get female Deserts to produce. Otherwise, you run the risk of the train leaving the station when someone else does it and beats you to the announcement. At that point, you aren't the first, even if you really were.

No, if you hit on fertile Desert females, you are going to put that word on the street. Especially in light of all the speculation and anticipation.

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Originally Posted by Driver

There has been a person that has came forward and said that they were able to successfully breed a female desert. He just doesn't have any pictures.

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I have a Unicorn on a secret horse farm down in Ocala, FL....I just don't have any pictures.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

At this point, I find that speculating that a Desert female can be fertile without PROOF is merely a desperate plea to keep prices up on what for many may be, or have been, a bad investment....I would pay a couple of hundred for a female as a interesting pet, and that is about it.

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:number1: This!!!

Don't get me wrong, I want the Desert females to produce, because a Desert Pin male is way at the top of my wish list. As long as only Desert males are viable, that animal will remain out of my reach from a financial stand point.

Slim,
So tell me this...has there ever been a female reptile that is proven to be infertile...if so I have never heard of it. Maybe I missed it......
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...there are too many breeders in th U.S. that have them in their collection, but not every breeder will share info on the internet.....as soon as some shows a pic of them on eggs you will see them pop up from every direction...
A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price. There has never ever been a female anything that cant reproduce so is the "Desert female" one of the wonders of the world....nope...just needs to be treated a little different than the normal Ball Python.
I just picked up a 650g female yestrday and looking for more at the right price because I know proof is coming soon and the information needed to have them reproduce.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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And I know a lot of breeders, big ones as well, dumping their desert females.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Slim,
So tell me this...has there ever been a female reptile that is proven to be infertile...if so I have never heard of it. Maybe I missed it......
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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I'm not really sure what to make of your question. There are many individual females of every animal species on this planet that are infertile. Unless there's environmental factors involved, infertility is often caused by a mutation. Most environmental factors that cause infertility due so by way of mutation too but that's irrelevant to Deserts.

The desert morph is also caused by a mutation. It is not inconceivable to suggest that color and infertility are linked by the same mutation. This would result in infertile female Deserts. Several examples of similar mutation linkage were given above.

The question isn't whether infertile female animals exist :confused: but whether the reproduction difficulties are husbandry based or are an innate infertility caused by mutation. One is surmountable, one is not, either is possible.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

I'm not really sure what to make of your question. There are many individual females of every animal species on this planet that are infertile. Unless there's environmental factors involved, infertility is often caused by a mutation. Most environmental factors that cause infertility due so by way of mutation too but that's irrelevant to Deserts.

The desert morph is also caused by a mutation. It is not inconceivable to suggest that color and infertility are linked by the same mutation. This would result in infertile female Deserts. Several examples of similar mutation linkage were given above.

The question isn't whether infertile female animals exist :confused: but whether the reproduction difficulties are husbandry based or are an innate infertility caused by mutation. One is surmountable, one is not, either is possible.

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All of this.... There are stranger things in nature than the infertility of a specific gender in rare occasions lol...

If nothing else good comes from the Desert debacle, at least it made the choice to get into the Desert Ghost recessive that much easier :gj: I love recessives anyway for hobby and business reasons. More fun to work into projects and see results and the prices stay a lot more stable.

Regards,

B

I watch ads in Kingsnake and Fauna....I do not see very many ads at all of anyone dumping off Desert Females....I see babies listed and a lot of males and male morphs but no females. So...let me know who these breeders are that are "dumping" them off and maybe I can pick another female or two....I would apreciate it.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

I wish I knew how close the caramel females are to infertile. I've got a chance to produce my first caramel this year. If I hatch a female that is very very unlikely to produce any good eggs I'll probably quietly look for someone to give her to as a pet rather than advertise her at a super low price ticking off other breeders who might think they should be more. Maybe the lack of for sale desert females is due to a similar reluctance to advertise them at what they might be valued at now.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I wish I knew how close the caramel females are to infertile. I've got a chance to produce my first caramel this year. If I hatch a female that is very very unlikely to produce any good eggs I'll probably quietly look for someone to give her to as a pet rather than advertise her at a super low price ticking off other breeders who might think they should be more. Maybe the lack of for sale desert females is due to a similar reluctance to advertise them at what they might be valued at now.

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I think this is in play. Also, not everyone buys off of KS and Fauna, so I am sure there are off the cuff deals to be had for the females.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Slim,
So tell me this...has there ever been a female reptile that is proven to be infertile...if so I have never heard of it. Maybe I missed it......

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Well, Travis, so far, Desert female ball pythons are doing an outstanding job of being just what you've described here.

I also have a hunch that the list of things you have never heard of or missed is long and distinguished.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

I watch ads in Kingsnake and Fauna....I do not see very many ads at all of anyone dumping off Desert Females....

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Do you think that when big breeders bail out of a project that they sell those animals on KS and Fauna???? Dude...Really?

Good luck with your plan to corner the market on Desert females :gj:

I know a guy who knows a guy who supposedly has a desert female due to lay very soon. :rolleyes:

We shall see.....

I think Travis has a point to an extent. Yes Desert females have not yet been able to have a fertile clutch, but who is to say that this will remain true. Special conditions could be the only thing needed. I do not think there has been a whole species or type of animal that has been infertile in its entirety but the Desert Ball python could prove to be one of these animals. I do not plan on getting into them because of there infertility problem but I just feel like it may still be possible to get a fertile clutch, but it is also just as possible that they never have a fertile clutch. Who knows we will just have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by ZBP

Who knows we will just have to wait and see.

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It's not like a couple of guys somewhere are dinking around with this project. A LOT of breeders have been working this project for quite some time with no positive results.

At a certain point you have to start accepting the reality of the situation, sad as it may be.

Not trying to corner the market...never said I was going to be first and never planned to do so....just want to be on the ground floor when someone else figures it out....it will be solved...if not already....I would just like the heads up if anyone hears of any breeders dumping Desert females in the 400 to 900 gram range....not interested in babies or adults because I want a year or two to set them up right.
I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Travis, as I stated earlier in this thread, I want you to make this work. I want you to be the first guy to do it, make your money, and then show the world how it's done.

Problem is, I'm a realist and the one thing I haven't seen are any real results.

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Not trying to corner the market...never said I was going to be first and never planned to do so....just want to be on the ground floor when someone else figures it out....it will be solved...if not already....I would just like the heads up if anyone hears of any breeders dumping Desert females in the 400 to 900 gram range....not interested in babies or adults because I want a year or two to set them up right.
I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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Just thought I'd point out there are several morph genes already known can can result in the animal dying - infertile is far from impossible.

Find MAballs videos on youtube with NERD where they discuss lethal combos - it's a two parter.


dr del

Slim,
Dont have any plans to be the first but I do plan on having them when it is published...aint worried about making the money...make that at work...and I dont need to pound my chest to the world...been in reptiles for over 25 years and the only thing I have ever done that hasnt been done before is produce Hypo Translucent x Hypo Translucent Dragons that everyone told me it cant be done..the babies die....well they dont...that info is not posted on my site....never talked about it till now....anything is possible...
I know of some very large players in the BP market that are searching for Desert Females as well...just following their leads....and absorbing the info they are willing to pass to me.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Do your thing, Brother!

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Just thought I'd point out there are several morph genes already known can can result in the animal dying - infertile is far from impossible.

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Yes there are lethal genes...seen both videos....dont cross those genes because of the results he posted....but those are cross morphs....not single gene morphs producing lethal genes....they produces fertile eggs but died after birth...not one that they discuss is infertile...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Say a morph doesn't produce some hormone that in necessary both to make the ball a normal color and for a critical stage in female reproduction. Maybe you could work around it with weekly shots.

Pearl is a lethal non combo, spider might also be homozygous lethal. For all I know caramel females might be 90+% infertile.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

just want to be on the ground floor when someone else figures it out

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:confused: Aren't there a ton of Desert combos...I'd say the project is half way to the top floor.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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Caramels have issues, spiders/womas have issues all in their singular forms...not too far fetched that it's very possible with Deserts. I would have a harder time accepting that Deserts are the only morph that should be bigger/older to breed, or that they would require a lower temp than the 90 degree hot spot every other morph seems to lay eggs on perfectly.

Yes there are a ton of Desert combos...but most are scared to buy because what are you going to do with those females....?...and what I mean when I say "ground floor" is when the market takes off, I want to have the Desert females ready to go. You watch what happens to the price of Deserts as soon as its posted "they do produce...and heres how you have to do it"

Hmmm....90 Degree hot spot....yea I think that will soon be a temp of the past...I dont run a single tub hot spot at that temp and havent had any problems getting eggs....and I know a lot of other BP breeders that do the same.
Considering that the aveage temp in Ghana is in the mid to high 80's year round and they spend most of the hot daytime hours underground...then why does everyone hit 90s as a hotspot...and the lows average high 70s year round.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Yes there are a ton of Desert combos...but most are scared to buy because what are you going to do with those females....?...and what I mean when I say "ground floor" is when the market takes off, I want to have the Desert females ready to go. You watch what happens to the price of Deserts as soon as its posted "they do produce...and heres how you have to do it"

Hmmm....90 Degree hot spot....yea I think that will soon be a temp of the past...I dont run a single tub hot spot at that temp and havent had any problems getting eggs....and I know a lot of other BP breeders that do the same.
Considering that the aveage temp in Ghana is in the mid to high 80's year round and they spend most of the hot daytime hours underground...then why does everyone hit 90s as a hotspot...and the lows average high 70s year round.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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Yes people use different temps to keep their BP's - VPI being one of the main ones I can recall.

But people have suggested the same fixes for every single genetic problem for years upon years, Higher/lower temps, higher/lower humidity bigger females/ grown slower.

They have never, ever even helped with any of the problems and, frankly, are only suggested because those are the only things we can change - not because they make a great deal of sense as a solution to the problems.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm

Is worth a read for one persons experiences with deserts and temps.

I'd quite like to see what happens if someone crosses deserts into the sub saharan giants in terms of their growth rate etc. But I can't afford deserts at the moment in terms of gambling. You plainly feel you can so good luck with it and keep us posted.


dr del

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...

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then you may want to do some more research on genetics.

Not all morphs are beneficial. Some of them cause the long term extinction of that animal type. Not saying the Desert morph would wipe out Bps in the wild, but chances are the Desert gene would not last long (in the scheme of things) in the wild.

Seems to me like a classic argument of the Optimist vs the Pessimist, with the Realist stuck somewhere in the middle. :P

I think it doesn't make the Optimists look good to see illogical arguments used to try and sway folks to their way of thinking. Genetics certainly CAN play into fertility in any number of ways from hormonal production to physical deformities of the reproductive organs that we might not ever see from the outside. And it doesn't make much sense to suggest that so many breeders are being successful and keeping it a secret just for profit's sake. Doesn't make sense at all.

I don't need those kinds of arguments to still be an optimist. If I were in a position to do so, I'd be glad to have a female desert in my collection and plans to work with her over the long term to see what might happen. I'm hopelessly and eternally optimistic about stuff like that.

All the doomsayer arguments don't matter to me...but on the flipside, I don't feel any compelling need to convince anyone else to have "hope" for desert females.

Folks, by nature, will believe what they want to believe. Us optimists still hold out hope, however illogical that may seem to some. Pessimists have given up altogether and are convinced that no good will come of desert females, however illogical that stance may be as well. The Realists do a better job of weighing the evidence before them, and I can understand that the evidence, as it is currently being presented, weighs heavily against the girls being viably productive.

I think a large part of my optimism comes from the fact that I don't believe the evidence, as it is currently argued on typical internet forums, is particularly accurate. It's exaggerated and full of hyperbole as rumors and "statistics" get passed along as absolute fact, when the truth is no one really knows. BUT...that's just my personal little inner picture of how all this is playing out. What others make of it is entirely up to them and doesn't bother me a bit.

I agree that most of the arguments get a little blown out, but there have been a few very well written and documented cases that do not look good at all for the optimists in this case.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I agree that most of the arguments get a little blown out, but there have been a few very well written and documented cases that do not look good at all for the optimists in this case.

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Sure...but that's kind of the definition of an optimist, don't you think? To still have hope when things don't "look good." :P

Is the optimist always right? Nope. But sometimes we are. ;)

I completely agree with Judy. If I had the cash, I would probably invest in at least one desert female just because I am very optimistic about them. I can think of so many things I would like to try, and just the experience of working with a morph that isn't fully understood yet would be fascinating.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Sure...but that's kind of the definition of an optimist, don't you think? To still have hope when things don't "look good." :P

Is the optimist always right? Nope. But sometimes we are. ;)

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I think it is OK to be optimistic, but I think that it has gotten to the point of some folks deliberately trying to keep rumors afloat that they can produce, or that someone has made progress, just to keep the project afloat and prices up.

That is not optimism, it is poor business practice (ethically, not monetarily I guess).

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Originally Posted by JLC

with the Realist stuck somewhere in the middle. :P

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:colbert2:

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I think it is OK to be optimistic, but I think that it has gotten to the point of some folks deliberately trying to keep rumors afloat that they can produce, or that someone has made progress, just to keep the project afloat and prices up.

That is not optimism, it is poor business practice (ethically, not monetarily I guess).

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I totally agree with this...thats the whole reason I never owned a Desert or the gene till eairler this week...they may never ever prove to reproduce...which would be a shame...
I am treating the female I got just like a "Dinker" with a wild pattern...and it would be great if someone has the answers they would publish it...
I just have a feeling a breeder out there has done it but wants to re-test their findings to make sure it wasnt a fluke.
Its either me being hopeful or hard headed...been accused of both before.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Whichever way it goes doesn't concern me, as the Desert isn't on my radar at all. I really do hope, and would love to see some females successfully breed...mostly for the sake of those who've bought them with no clue about possible issues...and I'm sure there are plenty of them.

And Travis, you may be right...I don't think I would be in such a hurry to come out with it if I had a Desert female lay a viable clutch. The heat that would come along with it alone wouldn't be worth it, IMO...I'd want to work it a little further.

There very well may be a good clutch that has been laid out there...;).

Even so, it would take a lot more than a few good clutches to undo the damage.

So if i were to buy a male desert and breed him too say a pastel, and I got a pastel desert female. would the double gene female still be unable too breed?

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Originally Posted by PythonOutlaw

So if i were to buy a male desert and breed him too say a pastel, and I got a pastel desert female. would the double gene female still be unable too breed?

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Adding genes does not appear to help.