imports??? whats your thought?

I was just wondering what everyones oppinion was on purchasing c.h. and w.c. from africa? I know its how a lot of the base morphs were founded so it cant be all bad right? I personally love opening new baby bags and praying to find the next big project. I'll post some pics of two babies i just got in one unsorted bag soon. nothing insane like a coral glow but some cool normal females that may turn out to be more. Thanks and Happy Herping!

I don't want to hijack your thread but where did you get the import bag at?

Outback reptiles had been taking orders for CH baby bags for some weeks now.

To me I don't mind CH or WC imports I own some myself, but we don't need to rely on imports to have more ball pythons.
If anything imports should be cut back more so that obtaining healthy baby balls can fall to the herpers who already breed them and care for them, instead of mass importing thousands of babies who end up in petstores, not eating properly if at all.
We already have so many morphs that we don't know what to do with and hundreds of combo possibilities, you couldn't even own every single morph with all the possible hidden genes floating around out there. :P

Imports have played an important role in the hobby, but with ball pythons being so easy to breed, there being limitless breeding possibilities with already-existing morphs and combos, and normal ball pythons accumulating in animal shelters, it's time to stop. At this point it is simply not worth the health problems so prolific in imports and the unbelievable stress on the animals from the cruel shipping conditions.

I think the importation is unnecessary anymore...

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Originally Posted by Kylegep

I don't want to hijack your thread but where did you get the import bag at?

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i pre-ordered from outback. wasnt the cheapest baby bag but was the only importer that i had personally heard could be trusted that it would be unsorted. very happy with the results. 4.6 and two of the females are very different looking. i will post pics soon as they finish shedding today.

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Originally Posted by kyote19

Outback reptiles had been taking orders for CH baby bags for some weeks now.

To me I don't mind CH or WC imports I own some myself, but we don't need to rely on imports to have more ball pythons.
If anything imports should be cut back more so that obtaining healthy baby balls can fall to the herpers who already breed them and care for them, instead of mass importing thousands of babies who end up in petstores, not eating properly if at all.
We already have so many morphs that we don't know what to do with and hundreds of combo possibilities, you couldn't even own every single morph with all the possible hidden genes floating around out there. :P

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i dont want them all. just the morphs i like. lol. I agree importing should be limited and petstores that sell them straight out of the box should have to list that they are c.h. or impoted. I personaly wont let a snake leave my collection until it has had 1st shed and atleast two unassisted meals!

thanks to all for your thoughts. some good food for thought. Dont think ill be ordering any more in the future but just had to get my 1st lotto ticket of bp's. lol

Importers know what morphs are, so you are very unlikely to get any. If you do, they will more than likely look very similar to normals. With so many people breeding balls, why would we need to import many thousands of balls each year? I have sold balls as little as $10. I wonder how much they would sell for if importation stopped?

Most all of my founding females are CH imports. Breeders weren't producing interesting looking normal females at the time. Even Sean Bradley told me that you get the more interesting females from imports than from by products of morph breedings at that time.

I've got no heartache over CH imports.

I'd rather see the importation of gravid WC adults stopped.

I dont think that the importation needs to be stopped completely. But i dont see a need to be importing them by the thousands. It would be a dream of mine to travel to africa and check out all the bps there and try and discover a new morph. That would be the coolest!

Without imports, this hobby would not exist.

In my personal opinion, I would like to see the importation of CH baby bags reduced, and as Robin mentioned, see the end of importation of gravid WC females. In a perfect world I would like to see CH animals offered only to breeders and serious hobbyist. There are plenty of CB Normals produced every year that can go into the PETCO and PetSmart display cases.

We have so many options right now for projects with just the proven morphs we already have, and honestly, the chance of you finding a Blue Ghost in an "unsorted" bag of babies is absolutely zero. The guys in west Africa who are putting the babies in the bags see more ball pythons than all of us will ever see in a life time. It's not likely they're going to put something very different in one of those bags.

The truly special BPs, either CH or WC are held back, and deals are struck. Deals you and I rarely ever know about.

When breeder XYZ proves out something really special or different, you regularly see the parent BP described as, "an animal I imported from Africa a few years back." Notice they never say, "This was an animal that I was made aware of by a broker, and after seeing pictures, won in a bidding war against every other big breeder in the business." They also never say. "Yeah, I found it in a bag of babies."

So, while you may find some interesting females, and a few things that look kinda' like Fires, YB, or Granites, you are not going to open that bag and find a Toffee waiting to make you rich and famous.

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Originally Posted by Slim

So, while you may find some interesting females, and a few things that look kinda' like Fires, YB, or Granites, you are not going to open that bag and find a Toffee waiting to make you rich and famous.

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This is pretty much what I gathered from reading about people importing ball pythons. The people over there who are catching these ball pythons and bagging them know all too well what is what. They know when they've caught something completely different. They WILL hold those back and sell them to a breeder who will try to prove them out for big money.

All the BPs in the bags that you buy will be dinkers at most. If you're luck, they will carry some hidden gene that blends with mojave, fire, or yellowbelly lolol.

I agree with Slim and hooblah^
which is exactly why i wanna go to africa myself and hand pick my own babies! :D

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Originally Posted by h00blah

This is pretty much what I gathered from reading about people importing ball pythons. The people over there who are catching these ball pythons and bagging them know all too well what is what. They know when they've caught something completely different. They WILL hold those back and sell them to a breeder who will try to prove them out for big money.

All the BPs in the bags that you buy will be dinkers at most. If you're luck, they will carry some hidden gene that blends with mojave, fire, or yellowbelly lolol.

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There WAS a time, when the ball python craze was in its infancy that you could get pretty cool stuff in the yearly imports - that's how Kevin first discovered hypo's. Lots of breeders didn't want anything to do with pieds, because they thought that they were sick, that the white was some sort of skin problem. It wasn't until Pete Kahl proved them out that the real value was realized.

Once the exporters caught on, they learned quickly what the big breeders were willing to pay top dollar for.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I agree with Slim and hooblah^
which is exactly why i wanna go to africa myself and hand pick my own babies! :D

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Lots of people want to, but the political unrest makes it unsafe to do so. And it's a very tight community over there, they're not going to let some American come traipsing through their land and take food away from their family (by finding the cool stuff before they do).

A friend of mine bought a baby bag and it was full of pastels and mojaves on top of the regular normals.

Just wanted to say they're not only full of dinkers and the vague looking morphs.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

A friend of mine bought a baby bag and it was full of pastels and mojaves on top of the regular normals.

Just wanted to say they're not only full of dinkers and the vague looking morphs.

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I want a grab bag... :)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by satomi325

A friend of mine bought a baby bag and it was full of pastels and mojaves on top of the regular normals.

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While I find that interesting, I don't see the point in going to the trouble of dealing with CH bush babies just to find a BP morph that is already well established in the hobby and not very expensive. Some PETCOs are even carrying Pastels.

Was your friend able to prove these animals genetic? Are they compatible with existing lines?

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Originally Posted by Slim

While I find that interesting, I don't see the point in going to the trouble of dealing with CH bush babies just to find a BP morph that is already well established in the hobby and not very expensive. Some PETCOs are even carrying Pastels.

Was your friend able to prove these animals genetic? Are they compatible with existing lines?

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I agree with you 100%. But I just thought to put it out there since many people seem to think only normals come out of those bags.

He kept one female pastel and proved her out with his super pastel male. The rest he all sold so I can't tell you about their outcome.


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Originally Posted by satomi325

He kept one female pastel and proved her out with his super pastel male.

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This is why I find it so interesting, and why I think breeders and serious hobbyist should still be able to bring in bush babies.

Just not a fan of all the ones that end up at PetSmart...

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Originally Posted by DemmBalls

Without imports, this hobby would not exist.

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And I am thankful for that...

Still doesn't speak for the reason behind importing more and more...and more:rolleyes:.

My biggest concern about the large quantities being imported annually is how it will effect the wild populations, obviously. I find it hard to believe that there's a fool proof, accurate method of observing wild populations of animals that spend over half there lives in holes in the ground. I'm also disinclined to believe that females in the wild are on rigorous feeding schedules that allow them to get back up to weight so they can breed year after year after year. On top of that, history tells us that humans are more than happy and eager to obliterate species entirely...with or without restrictions/regulations placed on them.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

A friend of mine bought a baby bag and it was full of pastels and mojaves on top of the regular normals.

Just wanted to say they're not only full of dinkers and the vague looking morphs.

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This is why people will continue to import tons of babies. All the newbs will see your post and think they are gonna hit the jackpot when in reality they will most likely end up with a bag full of expensive normals...

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Originally Posted by sho220

All the newbs will see your post and think they are gonna hit the jackpot ...

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But it happens....A friend of a friend's sister's ex's friend's boyfriend bought a baby bag and got a White Rhino...a new, yet to be proven morph, but a sure thing!!!

:rofl:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

There WAS a time, when the ball python craze was in its infancy that you could get pretty cool stuff in the yearly imports - that's how Kevin first discovered hypo's. Lots of breeders didn't want anything to do with pieds, because they thought that they were sick, that the white was some sort of skin problem. It wasn't until Pete Kahl proved them out that the real value was realized.

Once the exporters caught on, they learned quickly what the big breeders were willing to pay top dollar for.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Lots of people want to, but the political unrest makes it unsafe to do so. And it's a very tight community over there, they're not going to let some American come traipsing through their land and take food away from their family (by finding the cool stuff before they do).

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Things are different nowadays... As you said, the exporters caught on and they know now that breeders want the special stuff. Anything different. So the best you'll get out of a bag of normals, is probably a dinker, or as I stated, "if you're lucky", maybe you'll get one of those random hidden genes that just so happen to lock up with one of the genes already in existence, and make something fantastical! Like the highway ball, or the superstripe!

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Originally Posted by Slim

In my personal opinion, I would like to see the importation of CH baby bags reduced, and as Robin mentioned, see the end of importation of gravid WC females. In a perfect world I would like to see CH animals offered only to breeders and serious hobbyist. There are plenty of CB Normals produced every year that can go into the PETCO and PetSmart display cases.

We have so many options right now for projects with just the proven morphs we already have, and honestly, the chance of you finding a Blue Ghost in an "unsorted" bag of babies is absolutely zero. The guys in west Africa who are putting the babies in the bags see more ball pythons than all of us will ever see in a life time. It's not likely they're going to put something very different in one of those bags.

The truly special BPs, either CH or WC are held back, and deals are struck. Deals you and I rarely ever know about.

When breeder XYZ proves out something really special or different, you regularly see the parent BP described as, "an animal I imported from Africa a few years back." Notice they never say, "This was an animal that I was made aware of by a broker, and after seeing pictures, won in a bidding war against every other big breeder in the business." They also never say. "Yeah, I found it in a bag of babies."

So, while you may find some interesting females, and a few things that look kinda' like Fires, YB, or Granites, you are not going to open that bag and find a Toffee waiting to make you rich and famous.

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wow why you gotta crush a dream. lol You are absolutely telling the truth. I agree the likely hood of finding a coral glow or toffee or even a spider in a baby bag is a big fat zero. however im not looking for fame or fortune. i love the genetic aspect of it. just being able to improve my normals coloration/patterns with some differant locality females is huge to me. maybe not to others but selctive breeding for me makes it worth the effort. i buy normals quite often if it has something unique that i think will improve my collection. i dont think ill be buying any more baby bags but just wanted to do it for the experience.

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Originally Posted by H.o.F.R

i love the genetic aspect of it. just being able to improve my normals coloration/patterns with some differant locality females is huge to me.

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This is why I support the limited importation of bush babies to breeders and established hobbyist.

I thought I would share some things about CH animals. African exporters did catch onto selling specials in the last decade, however with the amount that is already here now, that has faded away completely in the last few years.

In Africa, there isn't very many wild caught animals anymore. There isn't much demand for those here. Pet stores don't want the problems that come with wild caught animals (ticks, mites, parasites) and nor do the animal right activist want wild animals taken for captivity. Also, we have so many morphs here, there are no more trappers going to look for many new mutations because they catch a pastel and we don't want it anymore... Sometimes they stumble upon nice stuff in burrows, but that's it.

In Africa they gather eggs from burrows, they put them in trash bags, then bury them in huge dirt pits and hatch them with incredible success. The process would actually blow you away, as we all sit here and worry about our incubation in our perfect incubators, in Africa they just throw them in trash bags, then in big holes.. It's insane... Granted we don't live in Africa either... When these snakes are hatched, they are trying to meet a high quota to ship and are behind schedule, they really are literally throwing these animals straight into bags before they even shed. MANY animals are overlooked, much more than you can think... Again, eggs from the wild... Hatched... Thrown into bags... Off to USA....

The reason I'm sharing this is because I think captive hatched animals are clean and safe way to hopefully prove out new genetics for our industry... Not to mention it brings fresh healthy high immunity blood into your colony. This is what I feel is a very big plus...

Now buying unsorted bags, I've never done that, nor do I know how outback does their business, but I've always felt they were honest people. I was recently granted access with a business deal to the largest number of imports that come into the states... This group hasn't ever been sorted before until this past year... Our racks are full of holdback potential and I'm forced to move/sell animals... Do they sell for more money than the cost of the import? Absolutely. That's the name of the game, but it takes huge expense and capital to acquire these animals, not to mention the importation risks, license fees and everything else, there isn't the sort of profit some people like to think. The animals that I will offer this year will be about 1/300 ratio. Meaning out of 30,000 snakes there will be about 100 snakes offered that are probably VERY high potential animals... You can ask why not keep them? Understand it takes YEARS to prove out projects, not to mention lots of expenses and space. We have incredible animals already, so parting with some isn't that difficult. It's actually been a topic of discussion to not flood our industry with mutations so that number could be less..

With all that being said, I firmly believe there is still very nice stuff coming in. I really wish I could share everything, and I might actually share some pictures of some animals, but I want people to be excited with for new genetics, because I feel it drives the ball python market. Its very difficult for me to buy a 5 gene combo animal for $15,000 when I already have all those genes in my racks (albeit separately)... I'd much rather take $15,000 and buy a new morph to breed and increase my immediate odds to make a quicker return. Its a safe investment for myself rather than crossing my fingers on great odds for a 6,7 gene animal, I know I got a 50/50 chance to make the new morph that you know will be in high demand.

I hope people can appreciate this post. I like to be open with the ball python community and I feel this is a subject that people just don't know much about.

Thanks,
Brant Rustich
Major League Reptiles

Edit: I also want to add that I feel a lot of these mutations are locale specific. Most of these CH animals come from the same locale... So mutations are consistent with what we typically have here with slight variables... Much like the YB complex, bel complex, etc...

I believe there is large portions of uncharted areas in Africa with new mutations.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

In Africa they gather eggs from burrows, they put them in trash bags, then bury them in huge dirt pits and hatch them with incredible success.

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And yet so many people try their best to turn it into rocket science...:rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

MANY animals are overlooked, much more than you can think...

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This is the only point in your post where I have a disagreement. The snake baggers in Africa are trained to look for certain things. It's not just scoop and bag. They know an unusual animal when they see it, and they will hold it back.

I will, however, concede that your idea of unusual and my idea of unusual are most likely not the same.

I think if you saw my animals you would agree they are overlooked. However, if you are implying that a banana, albino, lucy, or toffee type would be spotted, absolutely. But there are snakes I ask myself, how did they miss this...

I haven't read this whole thread but my take on imports is its time has come and gone. Yes when something new and unique is found it should go to the highest bidder, most likely a big name breeder. But there are too many people producing quality animals for us to be importing huge numbers of wc, just for big box stores to make a killing flipping them to people not knowing they are getting a parasite ridden animal.