Isn't this wrong?

While at work today I was browsing some FS threads.

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As for his color, none of the offspring show it as of yet. There could be something else going on. I kept back 1.2 of his offspring for myself to breed back to one another.

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To me it sounds like inbreeding. Since I have been considering breeding lately I just assumed something like this is wrong. Is this something that is OK and I have just thought wrong?

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Originally Posted by BPLuvr

While at work today I was browsing some FS threads.


To me it sounds like inbreeding. Since I have been considering breeding lately I just assumed something like this is wrong. Is this something that is OK and I have just thought wrong?

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Inbreeding in reptiles isn't the same as inbreeding in mammals. It is common practice to "line" breed to try and isolate certains traits in the offspring. Its also used to try and prove out a morph. You shouldn't really inbreed more than a generation or 2 tho.

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Yup. Reptile inbreeding doesn't show the same negative outcomes as mammal inbreeding. But even mammal inbreeding won't show any defects or mutations right away. It takes more than a few generations of inbreeding for problems to occur.

Yes it is inbreeding.
No, there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

With some recessive traits that people are unsure about, they breed back to the same line to "prove out" the trait as being genetic.

Technically "line breeding" is breeding to another animal in the same lineage(mom to son, dad to daughter, aunt to nephew, etc). If there is any unwanted genes, it can "double up" and be expressed or expressed more. If there are wanted genes, same principle.

Wow thanks! So if you maybe want to enhance a color or pattern then you may want to breed back to the parent if I understand correctly.

Yes thats correct. And I agree with Zombie, I would not do more than 2 gen or so...

Like others have said, inbreeding it's a huge issue in the reptile world, in any world for that matter, unless you inbreed generation after generation. It's openly accepted that a generation or two is a fine practice. I'm going to guess that some people inbreed more than just a couple generations so when getting a sibling pair keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

I'm going to guess that some people inbreed more than just a couple generations so when getting a sibling pair keep that in mind.

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Completely agree with this! I think this slips some minds. Something definitely to pay attention to and consider before breeding. This is where accurate documentation of lineage is important.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Yes it is inbreeding.
No, there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

With some recessive traits that people are unsure about, they breed back to the same line to "prove out" the trait as being genetic.

Technically "line breeding" is breeding to another animal in the same lineage(mom to son, dad to daughter, aunt to nephew, etc). If there is any unwanted genes, it can "double up" and be expressed or expressed more. If there are wanted genes, same principle.

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Honestly this is what had been bugging me about morph breeding [especially "Super" types] for a long time; I still don't think I'd be comfortable purposely inbreeding/linebreeding if I had my own, maybe I'm weird ^^;
I do recall, a few years ago, stumbling onto a GTP or Emerald Boa breeder's webpage back when I was reading up on snakes, and they had a lot of hatchlings for sale that were missing one or both eyes, which I thought was caused by inbreeding so that was a huge turn-off for me ._.

Thanks for this thread and all the informative replies, I understand a bit more about this sort of issue now :3

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Originally Posted by BPLuvr

While at work today I was browsing some FS threads.


To me it sounds like inbreeding. Since I have been considering breeding lately I just assumed something like this is wrong. Is this something that is OK and I have just thought wrong?

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Line breeding as been done with reptiles for generations with no ill effects. Line breeding is done to prove out animal's genetics, for certain traits, etc.

There is a big difference between reptiles and warm blooded animals but it all comes down to line breed DESIRABLE traits

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You shouldn't really inbreed more than a generation or 2 tho.

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Why only 2, does something happen when you breed 3 generations :confused:

All jokes aside if I remember correctly I believe Leos and Corns have reached their 20th generation.

Line breeding/Inbreeding is not that big evil some people make it out to be also does not mean you should not bring in new blood when you have the opportunity to do so.

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Originally Posted by Jessicat

Honestly this is what had been bugging me about morph breeding [especially "Super" types] for a long time; I still don't think I'd be comfortable purposely inbreeding/linebreeding if I had my own

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Sounds like you're looking at the situation from the perspective of inbreeding in mammals, which is not the same as inbreeding in cold blooded reptiles.

Keep in mind that there are small pond environments all over the world where the local frogs and turtles have been inbreeding since the dawn of time.

As others have said, the difference between mammal inbreeding and snake inbreeding is pretty big. I had a hard time wrapping my head around it when I first started researching ball python breeding, but four years later I've gotten pretty used to the idea (and it plays a big role in a recessive project I want to do). New blood is always good, but there's no need to go to great lengths for absolute unrelated pairs throught your whole breeding plans. Though if that's the route you want to go, you can do it by all means! I'd imagine it'd get expensive fast though.

In reality, it depends on the genetics of the animals. Like someone mentioned, it can bring out desirable and undesirable traits but that depends on what the animal carries. It just depends on the line. Even mammals are line bred on a regular basis if you look at the lineage of purebred dogs, cats, and horses. It enhances certain traits and in some cases, makes you realize that there was an undesirable recessive trait there when you get offspring who express it. Also, remember that siblings are not 100% genetically similar so one may carry an undesirable gene while the other might not thus producing offspring who may carry it but won't show it.

Here's an example. Let's say you're trying to get albinos and we'll pretend ultramelanistic is an undesirable trait.
Genetic Wizard 3.0 calculations by
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/logo.png
As you can see, these two could be siblings who were bred but because one didn't carry the negative gene, none of the offspring were affected. In this case, you wouldn't know that any negative gene was carried since you got all healthy offspring

In this example, both parents carry the undesirable trait and so you see it in the offspring telling you that the genetics are there. In this case, I wouldn't do the pairing again because you know that both parents are carriers. By bringing in outside blood in this case, you'd lower the risk.
Genetic Wizard 3.0 calculations by
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/logo.png

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Originally Posted by Dracoluna

In reality, it depends on the genetics of the animals. Like someone mentioned, it can bring out desirable and undesirable traits but that depends on what the animal carries. It just depends on the line. Even mammals are line bred on a regular basis if you look at the lineage of purebred dogs, cats, and horses. It enhances certain traits and in some cases, makes you realize that there was an undesirable recessive trait there when you get offspring who express it. Also, remember that siblings are not 100% genetically similar so one may carry an undesirable gene while the other might not thus producing offspring who may carry it but won't show it.

Here's an example. Let's say you're trying to get albinos and we'll pretend ultramelanistic is an undesirable trait.
Genetic Wizard 3.0 calculations by
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/logo.png
As you can see, these two could be siblings who were bred but because one didn't carry the negative gene, none of the offspring were affected. In this case, you wouldn't know that any negative gene was carried since you got all healthy offspring

In this example, both parents carry the undesirable trait and so you see it in the offspring telling you that the genetics are there. In this case, I wouldn't do the pairing again because you know that both parents are carriers. By bringing in outside blood in this case, you'd lower the risk.
Genetic Wizard 3.0 calculations by
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/logo.png

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That makes sense, thanks for that.

I had added the little story in my former post as I wasn't sure if the deformities of the snakes [missing eyes] were a result of line/inbreeding or something else? [and if it's something else, what could it be? o.O]

It's just that there are probably some out there who go for the minimal investment for the most profit, with all of them relating back to the first pair that was obtained, or possibly further back if the pair were related too.
So, ideally, if there are no bad effects from inbreeding what's stopping people from doing things like this? Would having a 6th generation line/inbred super-something really be possible with no issues as long as said "super-something" was a genetic morph or trait that was desirable? o.O I'm just a little sceptical that it can't be *that* easy, but if it can, well... ok *shrug* I'm wrong :B

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Originally Posted by Jessicat

That makes sense, thanks for that.

I had added the little story in my former post as I wasn't sure if the deformities of the snakes [missing eyes] were a result of line/inbreeding or something else? [and if it's something else, what could it be? o.O]

It's just that there are probably some out there who go for the minimal investment for the most profit, with all of them relating back to the first pair that was obtained, or possibly further back if the pair were related too.
So, ideally, if there are no bad effects from inbreeding what's stopping people from doing things like this? Would having a 6th generation line/inbred super-something really be possible with no issues as long as said "super-something" was a genetic morph or trait that was desirable? o.O I'm just a little sceptical that it can't be *that* easy, but if it can, well... ok *shrug* I'm wrong :B

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I have no doubts there are quite a few multi generation inbred animals out there. Unfortunately there is no real way to know unless you produce everything yourself. Even then do you know with certainty where your original snakes came from. The point is to not perpetuate the scenario and try and put new blood in your lines. I would even do something like trade straight across for the same animal just to get new blood (ie, Mojave female for Mojave female).

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