Frightened Black Throat

I bought a dog exercise pen, set it up in front and took Kinabo out thinking he would like it. Instead he went nuts! He hissed, tail whipped, gaped, you name it, he did it. He ran at the barrier, whipped at it until the nib of his tail was a little bloody. I was next to him all the time and every time I put my hand close to the pen, he hissed, gaped and whipped. Deciding that he hated it, I boldly picked him up which he was fine with. I took him back to his enclosure and he completely transformed. He was docile, even servile. He came to my hand and I stroked the top of his head and under his chin for quite a while as he had his eyes closed. It was like a lizard needing comfort and security from me, which is an amazing thing to experience.

I really think that living his first year in an enclosure, he became intensely afraid of the outdoors and being any environment that didn't have walls, hence his defensive / aggressive posturing. I am sure it wasn't me as he wanted my contact and comfort after he was back inside. In other words his was a fear of open spaces that I hadn't anticipated.

So much for the great outdoors. He may change as he gets older and grows more, becomes more brave etc. For now however he is an indoor guy.
I feel terrible that he got so stressed out but am grateful he didn't seem to hold it against me. Like I said, as soon as I had him safe in my arms he calmed down. I talked to him and I sensed that he truly saw me as a souce of comfort, security and safety hence his 180 and wanting to be next to me when I put him back.

I know some of you won't agree, but I feel blessed that I can have that kind of a trusting relationship with a very large lizard.

He doesn't need to come outside, he doesn't need a dog pen, he's a monitor. Leave him alone in his cage, he's happier and healthier there.

he's a monitor, not a dog.

Maybe the transition was too much of a shock for him. Maybe a gradual introduction little by little will be better. Like start carrying him outdoors for a little bit each day, then eventually sitting on the ground with him in your arms, then eventually letting him down. Little steps.

WOW so much negativity. There is nothing wrong with taking a monitor outside hmm I wonder where they lived before we captivated them?

Ive had iguanas act simialer to that but then realized they were getting scared of a hawk that was flying above. Dont worry to much about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cameron Lamb Exotics

WOW so much negativity. There is nothing wrong with taking a monitor outside hmm I wonder where they lived before we captivated them?

---

not north America

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alex.B

not north America

---

So because its a different continent they cant go outside?

Theres nothing wrong with taking a reptile outside to enjoy some sun. As long as they are not in danger or going to get loose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cameron Lamb Exotics

Theres nothing wrong with taking a reptile outside to enjoy some sun. As long as they are not in danger or going to get loose.

---

The whole thing about negativity is what I expected. Those of you that think that a monitor in a cage is being a monitor are not in touch with reality. My monitor, your monitor, all monitors in captivity are in a box, (quote from FR).
Being in a box is not like being in Tanzania in the wild or even on a farm. Also, Kinabo is a Black Throat, not a species known for being overly aggressive and more docile than most. (Note I did not use the word tame.)
I thought that my V. Ionidesi would benefit by natural sunlight. Instead, he reacted like I posted.
My monitor which is apparently not like some of yours, (he is a Black Throat which I am sure you remember), will crawl up onto my chest and with stroking will sleep. While he is still a wild animal, he is bonded to me and see's me as source of saftey, security and comfort.

Those of you that think that I should "just let him be a montior", likely don't know the behavior characteristics of all monitors species. They differ greatly between species. I don't force my boy to seek me out and climb on me. I don't force him to come to my hand while in his cage. Those are his choices
and the result of a ton of interaction. In fact I feel honored that he trusts me so much and feel sad that you haven't experience the same almost magical feeling when that kind of closeness occurs.
I am 63, retired and while my reptile experienced goes back many years, I am fairly new at monitors. My experience however with monitor posters is that they are closed minded, "my way or the highway", intolerant of alternative approaches that WORK.

Thanks to all of you that provided informative feed back. To those that didn't, well you lived down to my expectations.

FR is one of perhaps the WORST sources for monitor husbandry you can possibly listen to. He's been the cause of death for MANY female monitors because he's arrogant and thinks he knows anything about monitor husbandry.

Frankly, he's one of the biggest mongoloids on the internet to be honest. If you choose his advice over many of the better keepers (crocdoc, Robyn, Krusty) than I can honestly only hope your monitor escapes your care rather than endure some of the nonsense that FR spouts around.

That being said, nothing wrong with monitors going outside, if your climate is somewhat related to their natural habitat. Some southern parts of Florida, outside is acceptable. HOWEVER. Most places in North America ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR MONITORS TO BE OUTDOORS. Ever notice, we don't have wild monitors here, it's for a reason. The habitats are not suitable for monitors.

Your job as the keeper is to mimic it's natural habitat, that means all conditions, which can be done 100% in the enclosure without it ever seeing the outside world. On top of that, you force the solitary reptile to interact with the social mammal. It doesn't need or want to interact with you. Leave it alone in it's proper environment, it'll be healthy there.

A cat may swim in the wild, but you don't seem me chucking mine into the bathtub yelling SWIM FLUFFY YOUD DO IT IN THE WILD!.

You are right about FR. He is a legend in his own mind. I do not subscrcibe to his methods or his thinking. I was just quoting his "box" statement, which he contradicts in other threads. In fact his site is perhaps the most hostile reptile site on the net. The threads and responses are mostly from Frank worshipers and those new to Varanids are not welcome.

As for the outside, my intention was to have him out for a hour in 85f weather or so which turned into 5 minutes.

As for my monitors docility, I ramped up my basking area to 135-145f and the cool end is around 80 during the day. I was told by many keepers that my guy wouldn't be docile if kept at those temperatures. It didn't matter as he is still the same in terms of handling, docility and even seeking attention on occasion.
He does hiss and whip on occasion but it has become seldom. I pretty much let him tell me what I can or can't do on a given day and what he wants.
I am not anthropomorphizing here, I just enjoy the interaction.

Thank you for your feedback which was thoughtful and not hostile. Hell, I even learned something. Now I know why my cat Aspen was so pissed at me for a while. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MMReptiles

FR is one of perhaps the WORST sources for monitor husbandry you can possibly listen to. He's been the cause of death for MANY female monitors because he's arrogant and thinks he knows anything about monitor husbandry.

Frankly, he's one of the biggest mongoloids on the internet to be honest. If you choose his advice over many of the better keepers (crocdoc, Robyn, Krusty) than I can honestly only hope your monitor escapes your care rather than endure some of the nonsense that FR spouts around.

That being said, nothing wrong with monitors going outside, if your climate is somewhat related to their natural habitat. Some southern parts of Florida, outside is acceptable. HOWEVER. Most places in North America ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR MONITORS TO BE OUTDOORS. Ever notice, we don't have wild monitors here, it's for a reason. The habitats are not suitable for monitors.

Your job as the keeper is to mimic it's natural habitat, that means all conditions, which can be done 100% in the enclosure without it ever seeing the outside world. On top of that, you force the solitary reptile to interact with the social mammal. It doesn't need or want to interact with you. Leave it alone in it's proper environment, it'll be healthy there.

A cat may swim in the wild, but you don't seem me chucking mine into the bathtub yelling SWIM FLUFFY YOUD DO IT IN THE WILD!.

---

This has got to be one of the coolest posts I have read on any forum in a very long time.

I honestly feel that FR is responsible for many, many monitor fatalities.

This should be the last person on earth to follow in terms of Varanid husbandry.

#1, You were incredibly irresponsible if you used a dog X-pen to contain a monitor lizard outside. A spooked monitor could be over/under a Xpen in less time than you'd take to open your mouth to yell "No Fluffy!" Then he's loose, taking off to somewhere, up a tree, into the neighbor's yard, into the road, woods, storm drain.... then you're on here, crying about your lost pet. Please do not put your monitor into ANY enclosure that is not secure, even if you're going to sit right there with him singing Kumbaya on the ukelele.

#2, Monitors can benefit from sunshine and fresh air, if the temps and humidity are okay and if being outside doesn't stress them out. My monitors used to have and will have again, a outdoor pen, because here in sunny Florida, I can do that. They like the outdoor pen, because they have lots of hiding spots(like Retes stacks style cramped hiding spots), and I put a cover on part of the top, so it's not completely open to the sky(most lizards are wary of open sky, probably due to birds of prey). I build my outdoor pen so it should hold a chimp, so that the monitors don't have the option of escaping, AND I make sure of the weather.

#3, It's your lizard. No one can tell you how to care for it or how it will react. If you want to say "he loves me and we cuddle and watch My Little Pony!", then that's cool and all. Most monitor keepers are going to disagree. It's not "haters", it's real people with real experience with real monitors who are going to be WAY more concerned for the monitor's health and well-being than they are about your little feelings.

I'd ten times rather talk with monitor keepers who will tell me "You're a doofus" when I'm doing something that could be bad for my pet, than with someone who will pat my head and allow me to toddle off with poor husbandry practices. That doesn't mean you have to follow what they say to do... but don't go whining that it's all haters on you when they try to tell you information that you don't want to hear.

I'd suggest if you do want to offer your monitor the outdoors on good weather days, build a very sturdy frame of 2x4's with heavy gauge wire(not chicken wire or hardware cloth mesh) for him to use. Cover at least half of it(maybe with a blanket at first until you find what HIS comfort zone is about how much sky is okay), and make certain there are hiding spots for him, AND that the hiding spots are not overheating in the sun, AND that he's got a good big water container. Expect him to hide a lot the first few times. Monitors don't like "new".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

#1, You were incredibly irresponsible if you used a dog X-pen to contain a monitor lizard outside. A spooked monitor could be over/under a Xpen in less time than you'd take to open your mouth to yell "No Fluffy!" Then he's loose, taking off to somewhere, up a tree, into the neighbor's yard, into the road, woods, storm drain.... then you're on here, crying about your lost pet. Please do not put your monitor into ANY enclosure that is not secure, even if you're going to sit right there with him singing Kumbaya on the ukelele.

If you had read the post, I said that I was with him all the time. Your sarcasm is not only rude but it sends a message about your hositility and ignorance.

#2, Monitors can benefit from sunshine and fresh air, if the temps and humidity are okay and if being outside doesn't stress them out. My monitors used to have and will have again, a outdoor pen, because here in sunny Florida, I can do that. They like the outdoor pen, because they have lots of hiding spots(like Retes stacks style cramped hiding spots), and I put a cover on part of the top, so it's not completely open to the sky(most lizards are wary of open sky, probably due to birds of prey). I build my outdoor pen so it should hold a chimp, so that the monitors don't have the option of escaping, AND I make sure of the weather.

Once again READ the post. I wasn't homing him out side, I was trying to A. See how he tolerated the outdoors and B. wanting to give him a little sun.
It didn't work and that's that.

#3, It's your lizard. No one can tell you how to care for it or how it will react. If you want to say "he loves me and we cuddle and watch My Little Pony!", then that's cool and all. Most monitor keepers are going to disagree. It's not "haters", it's real people with real experience with real monitors who are going to be WAY more concerned for the monitor's health and well-being than they are about your little feelings.

Where the hell did you come up with that? Are you saying you can't develop trust with a monitor. I don't know about other species but there are TON of people that have very trusting and close relationships with Black Throats. I am sorry you don't have one.

I'd ten times rather talk with monitor keepers who will tell me "You're a doofus" when I'm doing something that could be bad for my pet, than with someone who will pat my head and allow me to toddle off with poor husbandry practices. That doesn't mean you have to follow what they say to do... but don't go whining that it's all haters on you when they try to tell you information that you don't want to hear.

How can you judge my overall husbandry? I haven't mentioned it in detail. Once again you are rude and judgmental without knowing any detail.

I'd suggest if you do want to offer your monitor the outdoors on good weather days, build a very sturdy frame of 2x4's with heavy gauge wire(not chicken wire or hardware cloth mesh) for him to use. Cover at least half of it(maybe with a blanket at first until you find what HIS comfort zone is about how much sky is okay), and make certain there are hiding spots for him, AND that the hiding spots are not overheating in the sun, AND that he's got a good big water container. Expect him to hide a lot the first few times. Monitors don't like "new".

---

THANK YOU. That is what I was looking for, constructive suggestions. You may want to tone down your BS criticism if you want people to read all the way through to your suggestions.

Feel free to PM me.

Since I don't feel any of mine is "BS criticism", I don't expect to "tone it down". If you're actually concerned about the animal, you'll read through. If you only want pats on the head, you won't.

My point was not that you were not "there", it's that I don't care if you were arm's length away, he can move faster than you can and be gone before you can react. Again, concern for the critter. You are not faster than the lizard is.

I said, sun is good etc. I did not say you were homing him outside. I'm pointing out it's fine if the weather is fine. Even for a "hour", if the weather is bad, it can stress their system, just like sticking them in the fridge would stress their system.

I didn't say you couldn't develop trust, I said you could claim whatever attitude or relationship you want... just don't call people who tell you differently "haters" just because they tell you basic monitor husbandry and nature. You're all about how adoring he is of you.. and most monitor keepers are going to tell you it's not in a lizard's nature to develop an attachment to a primate keeper out of love or whatever. That doesn't mean they are 'hating on you" or whatever terms you want to us to act like we're attacking you because we don't agree with your assessment of a monitor lizard's basic nature.

I did not mention your overall husbandry practices. I'm pointing out(again) that people are only concerned with the animal's husbandry NOT your feelings in the matter. Again, I'll type it slower for you. People here are mostly concerned with the animal's health. They are not mostly concerned with your feelings.

It's sad that you seem to carry the giant chip on your shoulder, since there's a ton of monitor keepers on here with a lot more experience who are actually willing to share that knowledge with people. But you're so much more concerned with twisting EVERY word to be somehow insulting to you that you won't take any advice or information because you're oh-so-right in your opinions.

Having seen a monitor lizard move at just under the speed of light when paniced by something, I'm hoping that you never let your monitor outside again. Again, you are not faster than he is. Hoping that he's going to come back like a puppy isn't exactly the responsible method for ensuring your pet is safe.

Now you can take all this, twist it around so it's somehow insulting and rude to you all over again, feel like a poor victim and whine some more. I'm sure it's a massive surprise to you, but I DON'T waste my time posting random insults to people that I don't feel care about their pets. If I thought you didn't give a poop about your animal's health and well being, I'd skipped the stupid attention-seeking thread and moved on to someone who actually is concerned about the animal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Monitors don't like "new".

---

Exactly. Everytime I have moved a "larger" species of Varanus from one enclosure to a larger one, it takes at least a week for them to calm down and accepting of me.

I personally would never take a larger varanid outdoors, just because of the levels of stress it will put on them.

Chris

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dana C

THANK YOU. That is what I was looking for, constructive suggestions. You may want to tone down your BS criticism if you want people to read all the way through to your suggestions.

Feel free to PM me.

---

You will find that many of us who take Varanid lizards seriously tend to be matter of fact types.

After you spend a decade on forums watching post after post of sick, lost, dead lizards, or "I just rescued a monitor, we keep it in the hallway closet", one does get jaded.