Genetics...

I sorta touched on this before, but I'm gonna bring it back up because i'm very curious and yet I can't find anything in the library or online (and my local pet stores are a joke) on the subject.

I was look in on Ball Boutique and he's got a genetic breakdown of different "morphs"(?). But what is a het, double het, etc...?

-Chris

And I LOVE the coloring in his 03 Axanthic Male
http://www.ballboutique.com/03axa/03axm1.JPG

-Chris

Genetics is a very difficult thing to explain, and I am no science teacher. But I can try to break it down. You can PM or email me, and I can also give you a couple links to some good explanatories on genetics.

Ok, here goes. A "het" is short for heterozygous, meaning it carries the gene to produce the "morph" (like an axanthic, for example), but it looks like a normal. If it is homozygous, it is the visual morph. Like the snake pictured above is a homozygous, because you can SEE that it is an axanthic. If it is 100% het for axanthic, that means it came from breeding an axanthic with a normal. Now here is where it gets tricky. If it is 50% het for axanthic, that DOESN'T mean it carries the gene for axanthic. The reason for this is when you breed a 100% het axanthic with a normal bp, the WHOLE clutch of babies will be normal looking. You won't get any axanthics. Now, statistically (and according to the punnett square) 1/2 of the clutch will have the gene (and be 100% het) and half of the clutch will be completely normal, and not carry the gene at all. So, since you cannot tell which are normal and which are het by looking at them, the entire clutch is stated as "50% het for axanthic". That is why you may see 50% het axanthics selling for peanuts, because they may not carry the gene; they COULD be completely normal. Confusing? It took me awhile to grasp it.

If it is a double het, it carries genes to produce two different morphs. For example, to produce a "snow" ball python, you must start with a pair consisting of an axanthic and an albino. The babies that are produced from breeding an axanthic and an albino are called Double Het (or DH) for snow; because it carries the axanthic genes AND the albino genes.

If I completely confused you, I'm sorry. But if you have any other questions, I can do my best to help you out. :)

Jennifer

In other words, you have to be a straight up genius to understand this stuff. So if you're anything at all like me, don't even bother. You'll never get it... :)

No actaully that made sense. And helped me alot :) I'd like to learn more if u still have those links.

what is the average goin price of one of those homo anx BP's? like the one i put in that picture? Those are GEORGOUS

-Chris

check out ralph davis's site for some great morph pictures.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/

Jennifer......HUH???? Im glad you all can understand that stuff. I think I will just stick with It's a Ball Python. :wink:

It's deffinetly wayyyyyy over my head.

LOL it took me awhile to grasp it, but now that I do, I'm glad I took the time to pull out some science websites and learn the punnett square and stuff. I have to go look up those links but I'll get them on here. Oh, and an axanthic from ballpython.com (the snake keeper, Dan and Colette Sutherland) cost's $3,500. Some places costs more, though. It depends.

oooooh the ol punnett squar that brings back horrible memories of grade 11 and 12 biology
man i hated biology, the teacher was such a COW!!!!

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Originally Posted by Andariel

No actaully that made sense. And helped me alot :)

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Glad to hear somebody understood me.. lol....

Jennifer

That was a great explanation thanks to emroul I finally understood all the het stuff.Thanks Andariel for posting this message and also thanks emroul for explained it so good for us :D .
Jesús

Oh, I try... lol.. Good thing it made sense, I wrote that kinda late last night. I was afraid it was going to sound like jibber jabber. LOL

Any other genetic questions, feel free to ask. I can't promise I know the answer, but I can try! :)
Jennifer

Thanks again for the info, and I got my local library to order in a book from down state on python breeding. Not sure of its content yet cause well ... its not here lol but when i get it i'll read it and let u guys know if its any good.

P.S. Don't think they'd be willin to donate one to my collection do u ? :) lol j/k. Tho I wouldn't refuse one if it showed up at my door.

-Chris

LOL don't think they will start a donation business anytime soon, lol.

Yeah, let us know how the book is, do you know what it is called or who the author is?
Jennifer

I don't think that any of us will refuse that opportunity if it knock on our door. :wink:
Jesús

If u talk to them ;) tell them if they get overcrowded with Axanthic's I'd be happy to foster sit one or two or three.... :)

-Chris

Here are a couple links to someone's questions and some answers regarding genetics.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showt...light=genetics

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showt...threadid=23631

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showt...light=genetics

That site contains some very well educated people, and if you work your way around some of the "off topic" posts, it is quite easy to understand.

Good luck :)
Jennifer

JACKPOT :)

Thanks Jen.

-Chris

chris go to the newenglandreptile page they have a nice little back ground on genetics and can answer some questions for you.

Thank You for the great explanation! I have been trying to figure that all out myself!

No prob. :)

I think my son started something around this house, now everyone wants a Ball of some sort, including me!
I really like the Piebalds.......................

I saw one today on sale.. a low white pied only $6,000!

Otherwise, expect to see prices around $7,500 or more... it sucks..lol.. OR you can get a pair of 100% het pieds for around $2,800. :lol:

Jennifer

Jennifer,
Where did you see for sale? I have been unable to find one..............

I'm not even close to the thought of breeding..................Yet!

Well, here are some for sale straight from Jamie Quick: http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=177372

They are all on that site when I see them for sale. ;)

Jennifer

Here are the ones that I mentioned (Low white pied for $6,000, and 100% het pairs for $2,800)

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=179111
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=178021

;)Jennifer

Thanks, I checked them all out...................Now I have to work on the husband! Lol

Good luck :lol::lol:

I saw those, and now my roomie "needs" a piebald! LOL. I'm now drooling over a pastel orange ghost. It's GORGEOUS!

Those are beautiful, arent' they? Heck, they all are! LOL

Jennifer

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Originally Posted by emroul

Ok, here goes. A "het" is short for heterozygous, meaning it carries the gene to produce the "morph" (like an axanthic, for example), but it looks like a normal. If it is homozygous, it is the visual morph. Like the snake pictured above is a homozygous, because you can SEE that it is an axanthic. If it is 100% het for axanthic, that means it came from breeding an axanthic with a normal.
Jennifer

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Not to make things more confusing, but I believe the actual definition of heterozygous is offspring that only carries one gene of a certain characteristic. This includes co-dom morphs like the Pastel. Offspring that carries a pair of genes (one from each parent) is call homozygous. So, just as it takes two het. Albinos to produce a homozygous albino, it takes two Pastels to produce a homozygous Pastel. We call the homozygous mutation "Super-Pastel", and we call the heterozygous mutation "Pastel." Het, Homo, and Double-Het have nothing to do with anything you can SEE in your animal.

We describe the way you can SEE traits being carried through generations with words such as Simple Recessive, Double Recessive, Dominant, and Co-Dominant. Simple Recessive means that the offspring require the gene for a certain trait to be inherited from both parents in order for the trait to be visible. Double Recessive means that the offspring require the genes for 2 different traits to be inherited from each of the two parents in order for the trait to be visible. Dominant means that the offspring only require the gene for a certain trait to be inherited from one of the parents in order to be visible. In a Co-Dominant mutation, the offspring will appear different than a "normal" if the trait is inhereted from only one parent (heterozygous), just as a Dominant. However if the trait is still inhereted from both parents, then the visible mutation appears both different from a "normal" and different from the "het" form of the mutation.

Sorry about the play on words....

I think the "het" form of a codom is called and "incomplete codominate"??? Not sure though....little help here?

There's 4 types of dominance related to ball morphs:
dominant, which is when it masks the effects of recessive genes and only requires one gene to determine phenotype
recessive, which requires 2 genes to determine phenotype
co-dominant, which has a different phenotype for each gene count (0, 1, or 2)
incompletely dominant, which also has a different phenotype for each gene count (0, 1, or 2)

The difference between incomplete dominance and codominance is that with incomplete dominance, the two genes blend into a middle ground and in codominance both are expressed. For example, with a flower that comes from a parent flower with two white genes and a parent flower with two red genes, incomplete dominance results in pink, while codominance results in a red and white flower. Regardless of which type of dominance it is, if the flower got 0 red genes, it would be white, and if it got 2 red genes, it would be red, so the ones with one red gene are visibly different from the ones with one or two.

i understand how the genetics work, but i DEFINANTLY dont have the time, money, or a mom who would approve of me snake breeding. it must be very rewarding watching a morphed snake hatch though

Ok....thanks! So relating to ball pythons...Pastel and SuperPastel are co-dominate. What are spiders? I think there is a "super" form, but it's not visible....but 100% of a "supers" offspring are spider. Does that make spiders incomplete dominate?

Thanks!

From what I have gathered, spiders were suspected to be either incompletely dominant or co-dominant, but have recently been described as actually being dominant, meaning there are no super spiders. If it's simple dominant, then yes, 100% of the offspring of one with both genes for spider would be spiders. As far as pastel goes, I don't think it's been determined whether it's actually co-dominant or incompletely dominant yet. Randy will probably jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Mojave and woma morphs are also believed to be one of the lesser forms of dominance. Cinnamon pastel is supposed to be either dominant or one of the lesser forms of dominance.

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Originally Posted by snakeys1996

i understand how the genetics work, but i DEFINANTLY dont have the time, money, or a mom who would approve of me snake breeding. it must be very rewarding watching a morphed snake hatch though

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Someday, though...if you really want it. I know my breeding projects are years down the road...but they're definitely there! It's good to have exciting goals!