Smallest female successfully bred?

Just wondering who has successfully bred a female at a somewhat smaller size? I know the rule is 1500-1700 grams, and 3 years old depending on opinion but my personal standards are three years old and at least 2000.

With that being said, I took in a collection about a month and a half ago with several adult females all 4 years old and older. All of them were on the skinny side, about 1000 to 1400 grams. Well I have successfully gotten them all up and over 1500 and would still like to try breeding them this season.

Any thoughts on the subject? Anyone who has done it with smaller females without failure?

Smallest I seen lay was hair under 1000g and that was a imported WC female

Do you remember how many eggs she laid?

3 or 4

People here do it, or should I say inexperienced breeders with no regard for the animals health do it. 1500grams is not too bad, but I wouldn´t do it. Why not just wait till next season when you know the girls will be up to a proper weight and there shouldnt be any complications and you will have a better chance at a larger clutch.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

People here do it, or should I say inexperienced breeders with no regard for the animals health do it. 1500grams is not too bad, but I wouldn´t do it. Why not just wait till next season when you know the girls will be up to a proper weight and there shouldnt be any complications and you will have a better chance at a larger clutch.

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Thats the Thing, Whos to say Larger females are safer to breed.

Bigger dont mean better, health and genetics play a role in how successful a female will lay and the number in the clutch.

As i stated alredy they can and will breed and lay any age and size. WC girls are imported small all the time gravid and lay no problems.

Hell I got a girl that lays 7 eggs every year and only 1200g, wont get any bigger either.

I've seen a girl go at 800g. I would never try it but the man who owned her had for 4 years and she always was around the 800g mark for the majority of the time. She laid 3 eggs, and actually gained weight and went again the following season and 1100g. And this season she is going again at 1400g.

Thats my issue, I have to take next season off because we are moving across the country in may 2013. So its either now or two years from now.

1200g is pretty little, but hey if she's doing that good than thats great, just been my experience that breeding is very taxing on smaller females and is generally not recommended. But if it works for you it works. I have no experience with WC, but im not surprised that they come in gravid at lower weights. I just personally wouldn't breed under 1800g and have no problems getting girls up to that weight.

I bred a 1200g '04 female last year (her first) and got 3 100g+ eggs. She is back up to 1600g+ and breeding again right now. From what I've seen/read/heard from people on here with much more experience than me, it's more about body condition and age than actual size. Pictures of your girls may help with opinions on whether to breed them.

Sounds good, I'm actually going to take pictures tonight after work. I'll get them up as soon as I can. Thanks for the input!

1300g when i started breeding, she got to 1500g before laying 5 eggs and 2 slugs. She's around 1500g again now.

I thought as you did, for years, actually, but listening to some folks who have put this to the test is changing my mind. It seems that smaller females can safely lay clutches, and they do continue to grow to large sizes afterward, and lay larger clutches. It comes down to the body condition of the female (is she nice and round?), and genetics.

I had thought that laying a clutch would surely slow a female's growth rate, as she put all that energy into egg production, but no one is reporting that it does...and some are reporting the opposite.

I bred a 3+ year old female last year at 1,200+/- grams, she gave me 4 nice eggs, no slugs. This year, I started pairing her at around 2,100 grams and is well on her way to laying. If the snakes have the build to breed and are sexually mature, they will. As far as I know, most will continue to grow at a good rate, some snakes stay on the smaller side. Weight isn't the main factor in successful breeding, IMO.

Here is a picture of my smallest female with a fertile clutch after laying.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...clutch5005.jpg

And here are her eggs
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...clutch5006.jpg

I've had a smaller female lay eggs that were not fertile but then she hadn't even been bred so it was kind of an odd situation.

Basically, I'll breed anything that's over three years old.

I had a girl that was at 1,300 grams at the start of breeding season and she laid 4 perfect eggs with 4 perfect babies. I fed her as much as she would take to pack weight on her before she went off feed.

On another forum, I read how some guy just put his 2 BPs (M and F) together while he cleaned tubs, when he came back, they were goin at it! She became prego and laid 3 good eggs. However, this is a story I read on a forum from a guy who said he knew the guy this happened to :confused:....

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Originally Posted by h00blah

On another forum, I read how some guy just put his 2 BPs (M and F) together while he cleaned tubs, when he came back, they were goin at it! She became prego and laid 3 good eggs. However, this is a story I read on a forum from a guy who said he knew the guy this happened to :confused:....

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I'm guessing this is relevant only because you forgot to say how big the female was? :P

Personally, I have bred smaller females. The smallest I ever bred was just around 1350g, when I began pairing her up. She is quite short so she wasn't skinny. She was 3 years old. She gave me 5 good eggs. A 2 year old female I bred at 1500g gave me 4.

Age has a lot to do with it, I think. Not so much size. Breeding females is a case by case basis. If you look at a snake and she's 2 years old, 1500g but looks a little on the skinny side (and this can be because she's long and not really plump), you probably want to beef her up a bit before breeding her. Or you could have a 4 year old female who weighs 1300g but she looks plump and is feeding well. I'd probably give her a chance and start pairing because more than likely she'll hit 1500 or more by the time she ovulates.

Ball pythons were built to reproduce. This is why they reproduce their entire life. In the wild females will reproduce when they are sexually mature not once they get some certain size. For those that say it will shorten their life let me pose a question. How many of you that say that have actually raised a ball python from baby to old aged adult?. Exactly

I also believe age, health and over all body condition matter more than weight. I have seen, and own some females that were/are picky eaters not loosing weight but not gaining much either. Some of them start pounding rats and put weight on once you begin pairing. Some even become your best feeder after laying a clutch so in my opinion at 3 years old if they have good body mass I start breeding no matter what they weigh. If they exceed 1500 grams in two years I will start pairing.

I raised almost all of my females from hatchlings so I know how old they are for sure and also their feeding habits. Some females will never get up to 2k grams or even 1500 for that matter, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't breed them if they are mature and healthy.

I have never seen any proof that smaller females lay more slugs, have more complications or shortened lifespan as some people claim. Any snake that you breed runs a risk of complication or something going wrong if your females are healthy your risk will be much lower but weight is NOT how you measure the health of an animal.

This myth also gets some people to over feed females to try and reach the golden weight faster which is probably not good for the snake. I believe most ball pythons will only eat what their body can handle so over feeding is not really a problem unless it is forced. In my experience they will stop eating on their own if you try to over feed but I have seen a few that looked like a sausage you could see the skin between scales and I doubt thats good for them either.

This is just my opinion, but I think some of those that propagate this myth just want others to wait longer to begin breeding knowing some females are picky eaters and won't reach 1500 or 2k grams for quite some time without any breeding activity. The purpose is to keep the market from getting so flooded with baby snakes before they make more money with their own. As we all know when supply goes up the price drops down if you can get people to wait another year or two to start breeding that means less babies for sale that year.

I'm not saying you should breed as soon as possible, but you need to judge each female on a case by case basis based on over all condition not a golden number given on the Internet.

This is one of the normal dinkers from the collection, I swear she looks like a lavender albino but with normal colors. Her whites are almost lavender. It's like they almost pop!
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_2994.jpg

MY first Female Pastel, just hit 1800 grams!
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_2990.jpg

My second female pastel, just hit 1653!
(In Shed)
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_2989.jpg

And my third Pastel female, shes staying pretty small. Still at 1000 grams.
http://s1051.photobucket.com/albums/...3DIMG_2998.jpg

At last, the crown jewel. Can't wait to jump into projects with this gal
The Citrine ball python, the first ever recorded.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_2993.jpg

http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_2998.jpg

This girl is one of my pastels too, but she looks completely different from the other two. Almost like a pastave or something similar.

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Originally Posted by RideRed12

I swear she looks like a lavender albino but with normal colors. Her whites are almost lavender.

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:confused:

I am not sure those 2 posts are for this thread? I am confused as well.

X2 and let me add wait what

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I am not sure those 2 posts are for this thread? I am confused as well.

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Oops sorry for not including a heads up. These females are the whole reason I started this thread. Therefore these are the exact females in question, Wingedwolf said that its more-so what condition they are in than weight. So here are pictures for you to judge.

Would you breed them?

Ah, makes more sense. I would say probably not the 1000g one. The others look good.

I have several other normal females that I wanted to get pictures of because they were under 1400 but the camera batteries went dead. They look similar to the first but a little bit lankier.

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Originally Posted by spitzu

I'm guessing this is relevant only because you forgot to say how big the female was? :P

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LOL. Yes! The guy said the female was 800 grams. Sorry... :please::D:oops::P

Thank you guys so much, this knowledge is priceless. Honestly can't believe how awesome this is, if only I could make it into a full time job.....

A question I have to go along with the small females breeding is: How many of you have had females die because breeding/egg development/laying/etc was too taxing on their system? And if you have had this happen, what age and size was the female before/during breeding? Any experience there?

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This is addictive...what did I get myself into?...

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lol totally off subject but I agree. ^

normally for me its 3 years old and 1400 grams.. this year i took a 2 year old female cinny that was 1200 grams but has size on her bc she is short. i wanted to do my own test and i bred her to my cinny. she was glowing for a few weeks an ovyed an is entering her pre lay shed. ill update as things progress.

I paired a 1200-1300 gram 2007 female last season and got 5 good eggs from here. Healthy as a horse, very active climber, but a dedicated mouser. She got up to 1600 grams before ovulation, was back down to 1350 gram right before laying, and dropped all way down to 900 grams after laying. Kind of alarming! But she's back up to 1500 grams this year, and I feel 4 huge follicles in there.

I also paired a 1300-1400 gram 2008 female last season, saw lots of locks, but got zilch. I think the younger snake simply wasn't ready.

Do people give females a year off now and then? I think maybe I should give that 2007 a break next season.

If they dont put on good weight i give a year off but normally they get back on the horse pretty quick

This thread has some great info. Still wondering, though, how many that have bred smaller (900-1200 gram) females have had the female die from breeding them too early/small/young? Is it a really low percentage? If so, is that because most just don't breed at that size? Or would it be because it's less of a problem than most make it out to be? I always have a lot of questions...

I haven't bred any that size, so can't comment.

I've never had a small female die from being bred. I've had two females die while gravid. both were over 2000 grams, one was very old and had produced clutches for me in the past and one was on her first time.

Not that it's a statistical amount of info, but MarkS's experience supports an argument that the size plays no/less of a role...other health/genetics issues might trump size... certainly interesting.

If you just got these snakes, adn they were skinny, I would not breed them at all....no matter the weight......at least til next year. Let their systems come back......whats the hurry.....

Just my $.02

Jason

So just out of pure curiosity, what was the smallest female that anyone here has successfully bred? Just curious...


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Smallest female I have ever bred is 1750.......smallest female I have ever heard of lay eggs......850.

Jason

Sorry, the previous pictures I posted were NOT my smallest female to lay eggs, she was my second smallest. I went through my pictures again and found one even smaller. Here she is.

Picture of her on her eggs.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...17-08_01-1.jpg
Weight After Laying
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...17-08_02-1.jpg
The eggs.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...17-08_03-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Sorry, the previous pictures I posted were NOT my smallest female to lay eggs, she was my second smallest. I went through my pictures again and found one even smaller. Here she is.

Picture of her on her eggs.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...17-08_01-1.jpg
Weight After Laying
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...17-08_02-1.jpg
The eggs.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...17-08_03-1.jpg

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How much did she weigh before breeding?

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I don't remember. These pics are from 4 years ago.

Our smallest girl was about 1400-1500 just before laying and she laid 5 eggs. After laying she was at about 900g. The eggs were ugly when they came out, wrinkly and discolored in spots. We are fighting to keep them humid enough knowing they came out of her wrinkly. One has started to die but we can't seperate from the others just yet bc of how they are attached. Not due to hatch for another month and a couple days... so fingers crossed for the others. From what I have read, the egg problems may be related to calcium deficiency in the mother, so I wonder if it wasn't because her smaller size and producing 5 eggs. I haven't noticed anything wrong with her otherwise and she has started putting weight back on very quickly. We will see how the babies turn out, but I don't know her breeding history before coming to us or if this is her first clutch. May add calcium supplement to her diet in the future.

I certainly don't think it is just related to size, but more her specifically, as we have had other girls the same size approximately with perfect eggs.

So I've been thinking about this thread a lot. First off: I don't think breeding those 1500+ gram girls you've gotten up to size is a problem.

But on the topic of 800-1000 gram females, unless they're older (4+ years) and it's very clear that they're well-fed and just smaller animals.... I simply wouldn't bother breeding them? Even if they lock, I wouldn't expect a younger animal of that size to ovulate. Even if she ovulated, I would expect either small eggs or a small clutch (1-4 eggs), probably both. And then they have to recover their breeding weight. Whereas waiting gives them an extra year of growth, and maybe I'd get a clutch of 5-8 eggs?

That's part of why I want to give my 2007 a year off after this season? She's het lavender, and I'm breeding her to another het lavender. She laid 5 eggs last year, and one of them was a visual lavender albino. She's got 4 follicles brewing up this year. It's only 1 in 4 chance per egg, right? So I kind of wish I'd given her the year off THIS season, and given her a chance to put on some real weight and make a nice big clutch instead.

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Originally Posted by JTrott

If you just got these snakes, adn they were skinny, I would not breed them at all....no matter the weight......at least til next year. Let their systems come back......whats the hurry.....

Just my $.02

Jason

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Best advice right there...no sense in rushing them, especially if they come from uncertain conditions.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

But on the topic of 800-1000 gram females, unless they're older (4+ years) and it's very clear that they're well-fed and just smaller animals.... I simply wouldn't bother breeding them? Even if they lock, I wouldn't expect a younger animal of that size to ovulate. Even if she ovulated, I would expect either small eggs or a small clutch (1-4 eggs), probably both. And then they have to recover their breeding weight. Whereas waiting gives them an extra year of growth, and maybe I'd get a clutch of 5-8 eggs?

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When I bred my 1,200 gram girl that was over 3 years old, I was thinking along the lines of her just being a smaller snake. After breeding, her appetite seemingly increase 5 fold, she had no problem putting weight back on, and has even far surpassed what I would have imagined. She's not a BIG girl yet, but bigger than I thought she would be by this time, and well on her way to laying for the second year straight.

Great advice, and I had no intentions of breeding them all. I just wanted to possibly pair one or two of the pastels. The only reason I wanted to try now is because we planned to move across the country in early may of next year. This means I've already planned on taking next season off. I have some projects that I'm a little ancy about is all, but with all that being said I think I will wait.

After all you guys know best, experience and wisdom are everything.