Panda Pieds, How to breed for them?

Im unsure on the genetics/morphs involved to get a panda pied, I,ve searched google but could not come up with a clear explanation.

I think thats the next project I would like to start on.

thanks

I think it's double homozygous for both pied and cinnamon/black pastel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I think it's double homozygous for both pied and cinnamon/black pastel.

---

There both recessive, BUT I heard only Cinny's can make them and that the Death rate is high..

But hey, I don't work with them (I wish i did..lol) And I can only say what i've heard. Am I right? I dun know, but hopefully someone who knows will chime in.

Can you expand on your explanation a little more please, Im still new to figuring out genetics and breeding.

So I should start with a pied python, And breed to a black pastel, then breed back the hets to the pied?

Something like that?

In order to produce the double homozygous both parents must be at least double hets (most people wouldn't call a cinnamon/black pastel a het but it is, they also wouldn't call a super cinnamon/super black pastel homozygous but it is even though the mutation is co-dominant (or incomplete dominant as someone recently argued).

Anyway, you could start breeding a pied to a cinnamon or black pastel. You would need to get lucky enough to produce a pair of cinnamon het pied or black pastel het pied and keep them back. Breeding cinnamon/black pastel het pied to cinnamon/black pastel het pied would give you eggs each with a 1 in 16 chance of hatching the double homozygous.

A panda pied is a super black pastel pied. If you breed a black pastel to a pied you would get normal's and black pastel's 100% het pied. You would need then need to breed sibling black pastel het pied's together and if you hit the odds you would get a panda pied. That's only one way to do it the cheapest way but the longest odds. Hope that helps a bit.

If you really want a panda pied your best chance to get one would be to breed a cinnamon/black pastel pied to a cinnamon/black pastel pied together and you should get a quarter panda pied

If I were to try to produce Panda Pieds this is how i would do it

I would buy 1.1 Black Pastel 100% het Pied and breed them

Genetic Wizard 3.0 calculations by
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/logo.png

It may take a few tries, but the potential is there from the start and 1/16th really isn't that bad of odds (not great either though)

Now if money is an issue you could start with 1.0 Pied (homo) and 0.1 Black pastel and breed them

Genetic Wizard 3.0 calculations by
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/logo.png

You hope that you produce 1.1 Black Pastel 100% pieds. once you have your 1.1 black pastel 100% pieds you can breed them together for a shot at the Panda Pied.

personally I really don't see the draw to panda's, I feel that there are much cooler morphs out there that don't get half the attention that these do... and even with all this attention there has only been 1 produced (at least as far as I know) even if more have been produced there are only a hand full. Either someone is holding back information on them or there is a genetic issue with them. either way I'm not interested.

Super Cinnamon Pieds are also called Panda Pieds.

The panda pied is not a cinnamon. Those ar called cinnamon pieds. The panda pied is a super black pastel pied. Only one has been produced and the odds gods are against you in that project. The only line that produced the panda was from outback. I believe and this is my personal oppinion is that because outbacks black pastel line is the blackest this has something to do with it. Its a project worth dinking with but i wouldnt mortgage the house to get into it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

The panda pied is not a cinnamon. Those ar called cinnamon pieds. The panda pied is a super black pastel pied. Only one has been produced and the odds gods are against you in that project. The only line that produced the panda was from outback. I believe and this is my personal oppinion is that because outbacks black pastel line is the blackest this has something to do with it. Its a project worth dinking with but i wouldnt mortgage the house to get into it.

---

Well, tell WOBPs that.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...cinnamon-pied/

There's even a "How To" Panda Pied video on youtube that has Cinnamon as the ingredient.

It's super black pastel pied. As far as I know the genetics are very clear cut and there is no cinnamon involved. It's two black pastel genes and a pied gene. Plain and simple.

World of ball python has panda pied listed as super black pastel pied. Why not give ian a shout at outback and ask him. Afterall hes the one that produced it and named it. Look up panda pied on wobb. It says super black pastel pied.

I know the existing panda is a super black pastel pied. But since a black pastel and cinny are compatible to make a super, can't one say they can use both to make a panda? (theoretically saying)

They can't list the cinny in the ingredients on wobp because it hasn't been used yet.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlbertaBP

I think thats the next project I would like to start on.

---

What is your current project?

No because they produce 2 different looking supers. As they are close that would be like saying an ivory and a lucy are the same cause they are all white. If it was the case then the cinny and black would be the same morph and they are not. Now i know people will argue that some super cinnies are jet black. The fact is that outback produced it with a super black pastel therefore thats the ingredients.

I am not saying the Plack Pastel don't make Panda pieds. I am saying that the Cinnamon version is also called Panda Pied. Go to the link I sent and its AKA is "Panda Pied."

I'll double check the youtube vid when I get home and link it if it's what I remember.

Yea i saw where it says aka panda pied. Thats incorrect. The one and only panda pied produced by ian was a superblack pastel pied. A cinny pied which is close looking isnt as jet black. Super cinnies wash out over time more then super blacks. In most cases. Evenbthe blackest of super cinnies still have that brownish sheen on them.

I'm currently working on this project (and so many more) and here is how I'm doing it:

I purchased a yearling black pastel female het pied.
I am going to breed her when she is ready to my piebald male in hopes for a black pastel pied male.
In six months, when that male is ready, he is breeding back to her for a panda pied. (the odds of getting a panda pied in this pairing is 1 in 8, which is a lot better than 1 in 16)

Voila!!

Yes on paper those are the odds. The truth of the matter on that project is the odds gods are drastically against you. But good luck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

No because they produce 2 different looking supers. As they are close that would be like saying an ivory and a lucy are the same cause they are all white. If it was the case then the cinny and black would be the same morph and they are not. Now i know people will argue that some super cinnies are jet black. The fact is that outback produced it with a super black pastel therefore thats the ingredients.

---

I don't understand your analogy in regards to what I was stating?
I was saying how when combined, a cinny + a black pastel make a super themselves. Not the fact that they each make their own distinctive super, which I agree with you.

Cinny Black pastel = super (with no normals)

You used Ivory and BEL...
But a Lesser/Mojo/Butter + a Yellowbelly doesn't make a super when combined.

A mojave and a butter don't look a like. Both have their own distinct looking supers. They're two distinct morphs that when combined have a compatible super. That's what I was saying about the Black Pastel and Cinny.

With that said, won't a Black Pastel Cinny Pied still be considered a panda?

Ok i understand your point. Let me draw a closer analogy. Lesser and butter. There ya go. I guess we are splitting hairs. My point is that the one and only panda pied was a jet black and solid white animal produced from black pastel stock therefore to say that another morph can produce the same animal would be innacurate. Just because people call a super cinby pied a panda doesnt mean it is one. Thats not what was used to produce it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

With that said, won't a Black Pastel Cinny Pied still be considered a panda?

---

Honestly we don't know. It hasn't been done yet (at least not publicly) so we have no way of knowing how it would come out. Would it be like the difference between a Mojave x Mojave BEL and a Lesser x Lesser BEL or would they be completely different?

I tend to agree with Snake Lab that they aren't interchangeable. There is something really fishy about this whole Panda Pied thing, and until more are produced (if any ever are) it is just down to speculation.

The facts that only one has been produced and the one thatbwas produced is a piss poor eater would lead me to think thete is alot we may never know about the morph. However it is such a smokin animal that it will always have people trying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

However it is such a smokin animal that it will always have people trying.

---

I know it is just a personal opinion but I would take a pastel/Killer pied any day over a Panda... don't even get me started on a pastel yellow belly pied (drool)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

No because they produce 2 different looking supers. As they are close that would be like saying an ivory and a lucy are the same cause they are all white. If it was the case then the cinny and black would be the same morph and they are not. Now i know people will argue that some super cinnies are jet black. The fact is that outback produced it with a super black pastel therefore thats the ingredients.

---

Not quite sir. YB and any BEL producer together does not make a white snake. Where as Cinny x Black Pastel does. Perhaps comparing the Lesser BEL and Mojo BEL would have been better.

Super cinnamon pied would not be the same. It's a super black pastel pied.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_dc5

Not quite sir. YB and any BEL producer together does not make a white snake. Where as Cinny x Black Pastel does. Perhaps comparing the Lesser BEL and Mojo BEL would have been better.

---

Regardless of how ya want to split hairs i think everyone understood the point. Im talking white snake. I havebseen ivories that are whiter then some bels and vice versa. I have worked with enough to make an educated point on the matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

Regardless of how ya want to split hairs i think everyone understood the point. Im talking white snake. I havebseen ivories that are whiter then some bels and vice versa. I have worked with enough to make an educated point on the matter.

---

Don't get offended, I am not testing your intelligence. I was just pointing out that, that statement was incorrect. I agree with you 100% on the situation at hand, although I do feel a Super Cinny Pied and Black Pastel Pied will be very similar. But yes a Panda Pied is a Super Black Pastel Pied.

Im not offended. I apoligize if it sounds like i am. Im not at all. I like a good debate.

When the super cinny pied is produced, probably this season, someone can name it what they want. :gj: I don't understand what the argument is here. Only one Panda has been produced and no Super Cinny Pieds. I hope I'm first. I'm going to call it the Kung Fu Panda because it's going to kick ass.:P

Kung fu panda lmao now seriouslly i hope you do it cause that would be awesome in my oppinion

I plan on breeding this guy
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...snakes/PB2.jpg

to this girl

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...potcloseup.jpg;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I plan on breeding this guy
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...snakes/PB2.jpg

to this girl

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...potcloseup.jpg;)

---

That should do the trick and we will look forward to updates when you get your first clutch of eggs.

Further thought:

I am not looking to try this project, but my approach to a basic recessive/co-dom breeding like this (starting from scratch) would be to initially use a male recessive to female co-dom (preferably super form) to get the co-dom hets. I would then want to breed the daughters back to male recessive and hopefully the sons to a female pied to get at least one co-dom/visual recessive (in this case BP pied) which can then be bred back to a co-dom het (or 2nd BP pied if you were lucky enough to get 1.1) . To me this approach is preferable to breeding het to het as you might be lucky enough to hit the BP pied by breeding 2 hets together but the rest would all be 66% hets. Breeding back to a visual recessive does take an extra generation but you will know exactly what all of the babies are. Obviously it would be best to play a numbers game and use multiple BP females and a 2nd pied male to give unrelated breeding partners in the F1 generation and as many pied females as you could gather up (and spare) for the sucessive breeding but that depends on how obsessed you are and what you can afford...

The thing for me is that BP pieds are pretty low on my list of pieds that I want to produce, and you are very likely to produce a few along the way. I am much more interested in pastel/killer pieds, which follow the same rules, and double recessive projects, whch are a whole different ball game!

I am awaiting a pre-lay shed from one of my Pewter het Pied girls. She was bred to three males...pied, pewter pied and and pewter het pied. I'm anxious to see who got the job done. She was only with the pewter het for a couple of days. It should be interesting.