Live prey

I just got a spider ball python and he's used to eating frozen/thawed. So my question is how to convert him to live Prey?

Thanks

Tell me your kidding

Why in the world do you want to convert him to live?

There probably wont be much issue there. Most of the time the only problem is trying to get a snake thats used to live back on frozen/thawed. But thats just my experience.

They will eat live no problem... Why in the world would you not want to feed frozen thawed? It's safer, cheaper, and easier.

Make sure your snake has on body armor!

Why in world would you want to switch back to live prey? It can take months if not longer to switch from live to f/t (which is cheaper, easier, safer). If you already have one that has switched, keep it that way.

Not where I live in rural Wyoming nobody carries frozen thawed and shipping would put the price higher then a live one would cost me.

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Originally Posted by ster36

Not where I live in rural Wyoming nobody carries frozen thawed and shipping would put the price higher then a live one would cost me.

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So why not at least feed pre-killed? Still safer for the snake.

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Originally Posted by ster36

Not where I live in rural Wyoming nobody carries frozen thawed and shipping would put the price higher then a live one would cost me.

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Ster36, your snake should have no issue feeding on live...do what's best by you to take care of your animal...:gj:.

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Originally Posted by ster36

Not where I live in rural Wyoming nobody carries frozen thawed and shipping would put the price higher then a live one would cost me.

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Honestly thats a good reason to feed live. I would suggest at least prekilled though.

One thing to consider though is this... if you have the freezer space, maybe buying frozen in bulk ? You should be able to stock up on almost a years worth of frozen rats and could do it in one shipment ( invest in a good vacuum sealer and bags ). If the snake started outgrowing the size you ordered, just feed him 2. Im just thinking that there cant be that many places to get quality mice / rats in rural Wyoming. If your supplier runs out, then you will be back stuck trying to get him to go back to f/t.

Even if you couldnt find a shipper, there are several surrounding states that have reptile shows. Maybe try to find one within driving distance ? Make a day out of it... Frozen are so much cheaper than live that you would probably make up the cost of gas just on that alone.

Just my .02

Pre kill then, if your snakes only had dead food throwing something live with teeth in their isn't a great idea.

I would definately pre kill them. I have one guy who refuses anything without a heartbeat, and I am a nervous wreck until he hits it every time. I know its what they do, but my guy is ho-de-dum about it, and doesn't eat every time. He has never been bit, as I stand by with tongs in hand. But so much better to put in a dead prey item, and not have to worry about their safety.

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Originally Posted by ster36

Not where I live in rural Wyoming nobody carries frozen thawed and shipping would put the price higher then a live one would cost me.

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Are you sure about that? Sites like rodent pro generally are much cheaper even with shipping, but you have to order a few months worth at a time to make it cheaper. I buy 6 months worth at a time and save about $250 vs buying local.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Pre kill then, if your snakes only had dead food throwing something live with teeth in their isn't a great idea.

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The snake will know what to do. Just because it's been fed f/t, doesn't mean that it's lost its instinct to hunt and effectively dispatch prey.

Make sure that the rodent is appropriately sized, well fed and watered, then drop it into the enclosure at the opposite end from where your snake is.

If he doesn't eat in 30 minutes, remove the prey and wait another week.

I feed 95 % of my collection live, always have, even those I've adopted that were previously fed f/t, with no issues.

The only ones I'm feeding f/t are my colubrids, because it's easier for me to get f/t for them than live.

There is nothing inherently wrong with feeding live, as long as it's done responsibly.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The snake will know what to do. Just because it's been fed f/t, doesn't mean that it's lost its instinct to hunt and effectively dispatch prey.

Make sure that the rodent is appropriately sized, well fed and watered, then drop it into the enclosure at the opposite end from where your snake is.

If he doesn't eat in 30 minutes, remove the prey and wait another week.

I feed 95 % of my collection live, always have, even those I've adopted that were previously fed f/t, with no issues.

The only ones I'm feeding f/t are my colubrids, because it's easier for me to get f/t for them than live.

There is nothing inherently wrong with feeding live, as long as it's done responsibly.

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Yeah that's fine, but why add the risk of putting in live when it will readily eat dead food?

I feed live as well to everything, and always have.....always will.......live rats are not dangerous unless you leave it in there for hours on end with no food or water.....if you are a responsible keeper, you will have no issues feeding live......as long as you pay attention. Rats have, and will, chew a snake up over time if left unattended.....i would NEVER suggest leaving a live rat in a tub/cage overnight, but like Robin mentioned, if you leave it in for 30 minutes, and it doesn't eat it....pull it out, offer it food and water, and offer it to the snake again in a week.

To me f/t is a pain in the butt....and the rodents SMELL.........BAAAAAAD........I would rather have live rats in the house for a few hours, then frozen rodents thawing in my sink/kitchen/anywhere in my house for hours......I breed rats for my collection, and would rather do that than buy f/t.......just personal preference.

Good luck to you,
Jason

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Originally Posted by Rob

Yeah that's fine, but why add the risk of putting in live when it will readily eat dead food?

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That's fine when they will take pre-killled(most don't) and when your collection is only a few snakes but when you feed 50-100 snakes what Robin posted is what most breeders do with out incident.

I feed over 100 snakes a week, 97% live and have never had a problem because I feed appropriate sized rodents. Most folks run into problems because they are feeding too large of a rodent that is also dehydrated and starving. This is a formula for problems.

The only snakes I pre-kill for are my kings and boas.

Feeding F/T eliminates two worries for me...no bites and no mites.

As far as the smell goes...smells like dinner time to the boys ;)

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Originally Posted by JTrott

I feed live as well to everything, and always have.....always will.......live rats are not dangerous unless you leave it in there for hours on end with no food or water.....if you are a responsible keeper, you will have no issues feeding live......as long as you pay attention. Rats have, and will, chew a snake up over time if left unattended.....i would NEVER suggest leaving a live rat in a tub/cage overnight, but like Robin mentioned, if you leave it in for 30 minutes, and it doesn't eat it....pull it out, offer it food and water, and offer it to the snake again in a week.

To me f/t is a pain in the butt....and the rodents SMELL.........BAAAAAAD........I would rather have live rats in the house for a few hours, then frozen rodents thawing in my sink/kitchen/anywhere in my house for hours......I breed rats for my collection, and would rather do that than buy f/t.......just personal preference.

Good luck to you,
Jason

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Dont leave it in for 30 minutes. After 5 minutes if your snake hasnt eaten it then hes not hungry. Also the dead f/t rats dont really smell at all when you thaw them. Live ones smell worse imo bc they can piss and crap everywhere.

Any snake will take live no problem, and maybe for some of you feeding ft is cheaper but I feed 4 snakes (1 med rat 1 sm rat 2 adult mice) and my Ts crickets all for $3 a week. Rodent pro prices for a single mouse $.47 single sm rat .99 and single med rat 1.39. That's $3.32 (without crickets) and doesn't include shipping. So buying ft isn't always cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Dont leave it in for 30 minutes. After 5 minutes if your snake hasnt eaten it then hes not hungry. Also the dead f/t rats dont really smell at all when you thaw them. Live ones smell worse imo bc they can piss and crap everywhere.

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I will stick to how I do it....thanks for your opinion though........been doing it this way for about 10 years now....never had an issue......don't plan on having one now.....

Kinda curious why you quoted my post though when Robin(rabernet) posted almost the EXACT same thing I did......

Anyways, thanks again for your opinion.

Jason

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Originally Posted by Slim

Feeding F/T eliminates two worries for me...no bites and no mites.

As far as the smell goes...smells like dinner time to the boys ;)

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FYI.....rodents don't carry reptile mites.......

Jason

Everyone has their own way that works for them and their animals. The live vs f/t battle will go on forever lol. The original post caught my eye because you always see it the other way around. there are ups and downs to both I guess, I just know for me having a freezer full of rodents is easier then breeding an entire other animal just to feed my other animals. But if it's something that some one enjoys doing and they are responsible when feeding live have at it.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Yeah that's fine, but why add the risk of putting in live when it will readily eat dead food?

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What added risk? In my own personal experience feeding off well over 15K live prey, I've not had any significant injuries to my animals. I've got animals in my collection that are $1500 to $2000 each. If I felt there was a true risk, I wouldn't be feeding THEM live for sure.

There's a difference in real hands on experience when "judging" feeding live prey versus making a judgement based on emotion, and the feeding live debate is often based upon emotion.

But for giggles, let's suppose that even IF I had let's say - 5 injuries in over 15K live feedings - the "risk" that you mention would be .00033% chance of injury. Far less than a 1% risk of injury.

Let's caveat that with - if one chooses to feed live - do so responsibly. Make sure that your prey is well fed and well hydrated. Drop it in at the opposite end of the enclosure as your snake. Remove it after 30 minutes if not eaten.

Simple "rules" that result in a successful live feeding. I don't stun prey - never, ever - it's not necessary and results in a scared and defensive prey item if not consumed immediately. I also have never interfered in a kill (other than to move the coiled snake out of a water dish if they happen to have their heads under water as a result of how their strike landed). I don't stand by with tongs at the ready. In my experience, it's not necessary.

My snakes get a bad shot? They quickly adjust and squeeze even tighter resulting in the prey more concerned with getting a breath than biting.

I'm not advocating that feeding live is the best choice for everyone. But it's certainly not the worst choice that many try scare people away from.

Feed whatever method works best for you and that your snake will eat.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Dont leave it in for 30 minutes. After 5 minutes if your snake hasnt eaten it then hes not hungry. Also the dead f/t rats dont really smell at all when you thaw them. Live ones smell worse imo bc they can piss and crap everywhere.

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I've had snakes wait 15-20 minutes before deciding to eat. A well fed, well hydrated rat is no threat to anyone's snake for 30 minutes. You'll often find it happily grooming itself in the opposite end of the enclosure when you go to retrieve it.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Everyone has their own way that works for them and their animals. The live vs f/t battle will go on forever lol. The original post caught my eye because you always see it the other way around. there are ups and downs to both I guess, I just know for me having a freezer full of rodents is easier then breeding an entire other animal just to feed my other animals. But if it's something that some one enjoys doing and they are responsible when feeding live have at it.

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Only speaking for myself - I don't ENJOY feeding live. That's not why I choose live for my collection. I feed live because it's what my large collection will eat, and it's far more convenient for me to feed live than to defrost 60-70 animals a week.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

There's a difference in real hands on experience when "judging" feeding live prey versus making a judgement based on emotion, and the feeding live debate is often based upon emotion.

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Hand on experience no I don't keep 100 plus snakes, but I have been keeping snakes and other reptiles for close to 20 years. So I'm not making a emotional based judgment. I still feed two of my animals live because that's what they want. Again whatever works best for people and animals is fine. But you can't say there isn't a risk when you put two animals in a fight for their life. Will 99.9 percent of the time will the snake win? Yup, but a live rodent always has a punchers chance to put teeth on head and that's all it takes to kill the snake.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Only speaking for myself - I don't ENJOY feeding live. That's not why I choose live for my collection. I feed live because it's what my large collection will eat, and it's far more convenient for me to feed live than to defrost 60-70 animals a week.

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I was talking about enjoying breeding rodents.

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Originally Posted by Rob

I was talking about enjoying breeding rodents.

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Got it. I don't think anyone enjoys that either! LOL

One rat rack is enough for me - used primarily for keeping rat fuzzies and pups at the ready for hatchlings. I buy from a local breeder all the rest.

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Originally Posted by ster36

Not where I live in rural Wyoming nobody carries frozen thawed and shipping would put the price higher then a live one would cost me.

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I really believe that if you ordered f/t prey in bulk it would be cheaper in the long run, even with shipping included. Especially if you pick the slowest shipping method.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

That's fine when they will take pre-killled(most don't) and when your collection is only a few snakes but when you feed 50-100 snakes what Robin posted is what most breeders do with out incident.

I feed over 100 snakes a week, 97% live and have never had a problem because I feed appropriate sized rodents. Most folks run into problems because they are feeding too large of a rodent that is also dehydrated and starving. This is a formula for problems.

The only snakes I pre-kill for are my kings and boas.

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Fed my adult female, 2,000g, her first live Rat this weekend. She has never killed her prey in her 6 years of life until now!

The snake is a family pet, and very healthy. My 8 yo middle son is a carnivore enthusiast, and frankly we got bored of feeding F/T. He keeps venus fly traps (best fed traps on the planet) and other carnivorous plants, as well as various carnivorous insects. He likes feeding live. Plus it was a pain to thaw the rats and they stank.

So this weekend we went down to the local shop and got a small rat, probably just shy of 100g, maybe around 90g. I didn't want to start her off with a live 225g rat like we would give her F/T. She took down the little bugger within about 2 mins of it being in her tank!

My question is, are the bigger rats, say 225g, significantly more dangerous than a 90g rat, given that they are both raised in a responsible local non-chain shop, well fed and watered? I want to give her the appropriate size but I would rather feed her twice as often than endanger her significantly more than with the littler rats. And I say "significantly" because i know there is always a small chance of problems.

For me, cost is a non-factor. Compared to my 3 kids, spending a few bucks a month on a snake is nothing.

I must say though that the live rat, in my situation, was way cleaner, easier, and more entertaining than the F/T by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by JTrott

FYI.....rodents don't carry reptile mites.......

Jason

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FYI.....reptile mites are known to travel on rodents.....They just don't feed on them.

There are risks and benefits to both f/t and live. But to say one method is safer than the other is inaccurate. If f/t works for some people, then great! I personally feed live. All of my snakes have an extremely strong feeding response. They usually snatch the rats as I'm dropping them into the tub. I feed smaller and more frequent than larger and less often. Keeping the prey size smaller minimizes risks as well.

A rat with a full tummy will be less of a threat than a hungry rat. When a hungry rat is left in with the snake, the only other edible thing in the tub is the snake.

I breed my own feeders. I like playing with them and giving them some play time out of their enclosures. They're socialized to be pet friendly. A more socialized rat isn't likely to freak out and get scared as easily. A scared rat can be a dangerous rat.

F/t works for some and live works for some.
Like Robin said, as long as live feeding is done responsibly, it can safe. Same thing can be said about f/t.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

My question is, are the bigger rats, say 225g, significantly more dangerous than a 90g rat, given that they are both raised in a responsible local non-chain shop, well fed and watered? I want to give her the appropriate size but I would rather feed her twice as often than endanger her significantly more than with the littler rats. And I say "significantly" because i know there is always a small chance of problems.

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In my opionion, larger adult rats have the potential to be dangerous.
I personally feed smaller and more often. The snakes tend to have an easier time dispatching smaller rats than the large ones who struggle.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by JTrott

I will stick to how I do it....thanks for your opinion though........been doing it this way for about 10 years now....never had an issue......don't plan on having one now.....

Kinda curious why you quoted my post though when Robin(rabernet) posted almost the EXACT same thing I did......

Anyways, thanks again for your opinion.

Jason

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Sorry i was in between classes at school and didnt really read the whole thread. As long as you stand there and watch the whole time its fine. But ive never had a snake not pound the rat within the first 5 minutes if its gunna eat. Living it in there for longer than that seems uneeded imo. But ya as far as smell the f/t really dont smell any worse than a live one.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Sorry i was in between classes at school and didnt really read the whole thread. As long as you stand there and watch the whole time its fine. But ive never had a snake not pound the rat within the first 5 minutes if its gunna eat. Living it in there for longer than that seems uneeded imo. But ya as far as smell the f/t really dont smell any worse than a live one.

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You don't even need to stand over it the entire time. I never do.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

Fed my adult female, 2,000g, her first live Rat this weekend. She has never killed her prey in her 6 years of life until now!

The snake is a family pet, and very healthy. My 8 yo middle son is a carnivore enthusiast, and frankly we got bored of feeding F/T. He keeps venus fly traps (best fed traps on the planet) and other carnivorous plants, as well as various carnivorous insects. He likes feeding live. Plus it was a pain to thaw the rats and they stank.

So this weekend we went down to the local shop and got a small rat, probably just shy of 100g, maybe around 90g. I didn't want to start her off with a live 225g rat like we would give her F/T. She took down the little bugger within about 2 mins of it being in her tank!

My question is, are the bigger rats, say 225g, significantly more dangerous than a 90g rat, given that they are both raised in a responsible local non-chain shop, well fed and watered? I want to give her the appropriate size but I would rather feed her twice as often than endanger her significantly more than with the littler rats. And I say "significantly" because i know there is always a small chance of problems.

For me, cost is a non-factor. Compared to my 3 kids, spending a few bucks a month on a snake is nothing.

I must say though that the live rat, in my situation, was way cleaner, easier, and more entertaining than the F/T by a long shot.

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I don't feed much larger than 150 gram rats once a week to even my largest girls.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Feeding F/T eliminates two worries for me...no bites and no mites.

As far as the smell goes...smells like dinner time to the boys ;)

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You can still get mites from f/t. Adult mites will die in the freezing process, but not their eggs. The eggs can lie dormant until more ideal hatching conditions arise.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Slim

FYI.....reptile mites are known to travel on rodents.....They just don't feed on them.

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Ok?.......so they live on rats, but don't feed on them....so mites are self sustaining(sp?) now?.....that doesn't make sense.....I understand if you offer to one snake that has mites, and move to another snake that doesn't, the mites can pass to that snake, but reptile mites will not just 'show up' on a rodent.....they have to origionate from somewhere.......if you got reptile mites from a feeder, it is because the person you got that feeder from has offered it to a snake that has mites......

If reptile mites do not feed on rodents, then how do they survive?......I guess that is my problem with your statement.....

Jason

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Originally Posted by JTrott

If reptile mites do not feed on rodents, then how do they survive?......I guess that is my problem with your statement.....

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They don't live on rats, they can be carried on feeders that get raised in the back of a reptile store or in close proximity to snakes, as is very common in this hobby. I've heard multiple stories over the years of someone bringing home reptile mites on the backs of feeder rodents. It only takes one egg carrying mite on a rat's back to get an infestation started.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Sorry i was in between classes at school and didnt really read the whole thread. As long as you stand there and watch the whole time its fine. But ive never had a snake not pound the rat within the first 5 minutes if its gunna eat. Living it in there for longer than that seems uneeded imo. But ya as far as smell the f/t really dont smell any worse than a live one.

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Nevermind......I read a caresheet once too........you will figure out over time that a caresheet cannot be right all the time.....

Jason

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Originally Posted by satomi325

You can still get mites from f/t. Adult mites will die in the freezing process, but not their eggs. The eggs can lie dormant until more ideal hatching conditions arise.

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I'm in no way doubting your statement because I can see where that could happen, but so far, it hasn't happened to me...*knocking on wood*

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You don't even need to stand over it the entire time. I never do.

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Theyre your snakes and you have alot of experience with them. Im not trying to tell you how to keep your snakes. But, thats not the best message to be conveying to people who are newer to keeping snakes and reading this. Just my opinion, no hard feelings :)

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Originally Posted by JTrott

Ok?.......so they live on rats, but don't feed on them....so mites are self sustaining(sp?) now?.....that doesn't make sense.....I understand if you offer to one snake that has mites, and move to another snake that doesn't, the mites can pass to that snake, but reptile mites will not just 'show up' on a rodent.....they have to origionate from somewhere.......if you got reptile mites from a feeder, it is because the person you got that feeder from has offered it to a snake that has mites......

If reptile mites do not feed on rodents, then how do they survive?......I guess that is my problem with your statement.....

Jason

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Mite nymps can go airborne and hitch hike on a feeder, so it could be possible to spread snake mites from a feeder. Not to mention eggs like Slim stated.

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Originally Posted by JTrott

Nevermind......I read a caresheet once too........you will figure out over time that a caresheet cannot be right all the time.....

Jason

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I fed live for 5 years and just converted to f/t recently so i can stock up in bulk. I only have 3 snakes though so i had time to watch the entire feeding process. I dont agree with your methods but it works for you and your snakes so i really dont care. Its your choice. As far as the snake taking half an hour to decide to eat. I never had that happen to me. Mine always hit it within 5 minutes like i said. But im only basing that off of my 3 snakes. Idk how many snakes you have. Maybe hundreds lol. That gives you alot more experience to base your responses off of than me. And btw thats awesome that you know how to read a caresheet, thanks for sharing lol ;)

I raise my own feeders so mites come from dirty petstores don't apply to me.......and by the way, not all petstores are nasty.....I have been to LOTS of petstores that I would not mind buying from or selling to....they just don't carry things that I want/need.

I have raised probably thousands of snakes over the past 10 years, and maintain a collection of just over 150, and have never had a snake get attacked/chewed up by a rat.......maybe that is because I take care of my rats the same, if not better than my snakes......I have the understanding that you only get out what you are putting in......just because I don't have almost 2000 posts in 4 months doesn't mean that I don't know what I am talking about.

We can argue/debate all day who is right, and who is wrong, and whos opinion is better, but in the end of the day it is all just opinions. No matter how you feed your snakes, it is up to you to do it in a responsible way......

Good day to everyone,
Jason

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Originally Posted by JTrott

I raise my own feeders so mites come from dirty petstores don't apply to me.......

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I never said it did appy to you, but thanks for implying that I buy feeders at nasty pet stores. That was awesome:gj:

I dont think he was implying you directly, slim, it was just a general statement about pet stores, which usually tend to be pooly staffed by under educated people, which can lead to mites and all sorts of other parasites/bugs ect.
Heck, have you guys ever really looked at the fish in most pet stores.
See how many ich spots you can find on a single fish, not to mention fin rot and mis housing them, and thats fish, nobody cares about fish (i do, im a fishkeeper for 2 years now, 6 tanks lol)
The snakes, mice, gerbils are no exception. Its really money to blame..

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Originally Posted by serpent fan

I dont think he was implying you directly, slim, it was just a general statement about pet stores,

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I hope we can respectfully agree to disagree. It seems to be that kind of day around the ole' BP.net ;)

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Originally Posted by satomi325

You can still get mites from f/t. Adult mites will die in the freezing process, but not their eggs. The eggs can lie dormant until more ideal hatching conditions arise.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

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That's an entirely conditional statement...if frozen at low enough temperatures the eggs will die almost immediately. If frozen for long enough, even not at sub-zero temps, they will die...and it's only a matter of days, not extended periods of time. It's not like frozen mite eggs have a never ending shelf life.