Thoughts on culling...when and/or when not to?

I was just skimming through a thread on another forum today and this was touched upon. I find this to be an interesting topic worthy of discussion, so....what are your thoughts on culling? Whether it be for deformities, genetic abnormalities, babies that are extra resistant to feeding on their own, etc...when and why do you make the decision to cull or not to? Do you keep snakes that shouldn't be bred down the road for whatever reason, or do you give them away or sell them at a reduced price labeled as "pet only"? Can you ever really trust that they will end up in and stay in a "pet only" environment? In the better interest of the hobby and the animals, would a strong stance for culling be beneficial? Is the risk of further diluting an already fragile gene pool outweighed by your(and/or ours) innate sensitivity and desire to see the animals we produce do well and live?

I think that you should keep it (unless the animal will suffer) You brought it into this world so it is your responsibility. It is part of the game we play.

The only way I would cull is if it would be almost impossible for them to thrive. I had to cull my first clutch because they were train wrecks. Some didn't have eyes, all their bellies were split a good 3-4 inches, and they had severe kinks. Their clutch mates were dying throughout incubation, but three of them lived long enough for me to pull them out of the eggs and they could barely move. This is the reason I go substrateless now and will never go back. I personally think it's wrong to cull any animal that can and will thrive. There is a difference between living and thriving in my book.

I was also going to say that only you can be sure that the animal isn't ever bred.

but I forgot :rolleye2:

This is my 4th year breeding, I've yet to cull any...I just think this is an interesting topic. I have my own thoughts, but will be the first to admit that I need more experience to fully formulate them. As far as keeping any not fit for future breeding, I don't see it as a realistic option...and I am not one to trust that slapping a "pet only" label on an animal will by any means be of any assurance to that end.

I think that with the animals we are breeding deformities and "defects" are rare. Kinking, duck billing, and bug eyes are all deformities I feel you can sell. Depending on the severity of the kinking maybe sold as pet only. But culling is only done when it's a defect the animal will suffer. It's an unfortunate part of breeding animals the we must accept. I don't feel there is an inbetween where it can't be sold (even at reduced price) and culling. The animal is either healthy enough to survive or not, and we as breeders have a be responsible enough to do what right by the animal, not our wallet.

I think that it would really depend on the circumstances for me. I havent bred yet but plan to make my first attempt at it next season, (with bps). I think that with some abnormalities the snake can still survive and live a happy life. Mild cases of kinking, duckbilling and bug eyes dont always impair the animal to the point that it will not be able to live normally. Like i said, i think i will have to make the judgement when put in the situation. Until then i cant say for sure what i would do...
If the snake only had a mild deformity i would probably post it on here as an adoption, thats not for breeding. I know there are quite a few members on here that never plan on breeding and they just keep them as pets :)

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Originally Posted by ChrisS

The animal is either healthy enough to survive or not, and we as breeders have a be responsible enough to do what right by the animal, not our wallet.

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Couldnt agree more. If youre in it for the right reason, for the love of the animals, then you wont care whether you dont get money for the animal or if you have to cull it... Youll be happy knowing you did what was right for the animal.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

I don't see it as a realistic option...and I am not one to trust that slapping a "pet only" label on an animal will by any means be of any assurance to that end.

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I plan on breeding in the near future, and if I ever produce one that isn't fit to breed in the future but will still be able to live a happy life it will stay here in my personal collection and I won't breed it. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by ChrisS

we as breeders have a be responsible enough to do what right by the animal, not our wallet.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

If youre in it for the right reason, for the love of the animals, then you wont care whether you dont get money for the animal or if you have to cull it

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There's no money in culling, so I fail to see the argument...but I'd say that there are plenty of people who wouldn't think twice about pairing a space cadet spider to a kinked caramel with their primary focus being on the money that can be made.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

There's no money in culling, so I fail to see the argument...but I'd say that there are plenty of people who wouldn't think twice about pairing a space cadet spider to a kinked caramel with their primary focus being on the money that can be made.

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That is my argument, if you feel the animal isn't healthy enough to sell is it really healthy enough to live. So by culling you do right by the animal and by selling you do what is right by your wallet.

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Originally Posted by ChrisS

That is my argument, if you feel the animal isn't healthy enough to sell is it really healthy enough to live. So by culling you do right by the animal and by selling you do what is right by your wallet.

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x2 thats what i meant. I didnt mean that if i dont think i can make money off of it then i cull it...

It depends on a number of things.

For example, I have an amazing normal female who was born eyeless. She is otherwise completely healthy and normal, and I was grateful to adopt her. She will never be bred, even though she is gorgeous.

On the other hand, I did have an import hatchling that despite repeated feeding attempts and force feeding efforts, she would not eat on her own. After 9 months of effort on my part, she still weighed only 55 grams. Eventually, I had to admit defeat, I simply could not help her, and I culled her. I still do not regret it, she would never have survived without constant force feeding, and that was hard on us both.

So, it depends on the individual situation.

Gale

There was a local breeder I walked away from.
He talked about how hard it was to move normals and how he needed his limited space for snakes that he could sell, so when his eggs hatch out, he culls off any normals.

I ended up just walking away, I wasn't going to give this guy my business.

I have also been curious how common this is.

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Originally Posted by Maixx

There was a local breeder I walked away from.
He talked about how hard it was to move normals and how he needed his limited space for snakes that he could sell, so when his eggs hatch out, he culls off any normals.

I ended up just walking away, I wasn't going to give this guy my business.

I have also been curious how common this is.

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Shows poor foresight on the part of the breeder, I wouldn't buy from such an irresponsible person either.. Who would cull perfectly good normals? If you don't want to take the time to find them individual homes wholesaling them out or donating to local pet shops both seem like valid options to me. It honestly sounds like the person was trying to show off and failed miserably while losing a potential customer.

Normals are just as good as anything else in my eyes. Have a ton of normals and 3-5 gene males and bang you are producing a few different morphs still. I tend to keep all the female normals and sell the males. I will only cull an animal if its 100 percent necessary.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

For example, I have an amazing normal female who was born eyeless. She is otherwise completely healthy and normal, and I was grateful to adopt her. She will never be bred, even though she is gorgeous.
Gale

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Im not questioning your choice but why not breed her? I mean bps dont have the best eyesite anyways and its not like they need to really see to breed. Is it bc youre afraid it might be genetic or something?

This has been a really interesting topic, and while preparing my rack setup that i plan to house future adults in for breeding my mind stumbled across this. Like john1982 who said

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If you don't want to take the time to find them individual homes wholesaling them out or donating to local pet shops both seem like valid options to me.

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I strongly agree with this option and it was one for the first things that came to my mind!

Personally, i am attracted to very bright snakes in which have lots of color. Its not to say that i don't like the other morphs its more that i have a preference towards something else.

With that said however if i were to ever hatch a normal in my future breading (given its a female) i would keep it with out thinking twice. WHY?, again i currently only have one snake 0.1.0 Pastel which i hope to breed with a 1.0.0 bumble bee. So i would be looking to keep anything that i don't already have.

Snakes which become duplicates in my collection will be sold off, and if no buyers can be found they will be donated [to a home that i know they will strive in]/

I am not a breeder, and have no plans to ever become one, but I can certainly understand why culling can be necessary at times. Animals with deformities that affect their ability to thrive should be culled.

Breeders who cull Normals due to lack of "storage space" show poor judgment and lack of foresight.

Culling is and should only be done in a management scenario. For example over populations of wildlife. I manage 4 big tracts of land along with a few small parcels for deer management and hunting. I work with the states dmap program and recieve management tags to cull the herds. I take out selective does and genetically inferior bucks out of the herd. This allows me to control the gene pool and sex ratios to prevent a number of things such as over population and quality of the deer. Now as far as an aninal we keep and breed for hobby or pleasure such as snakes or dogs or cats culling is absolutely absurd. We choose to breed these animals. If we are not able to handle the number of babies we expect to produce then we shouldnt be producing them plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Maixx

There was a local breeder I walked away from.
He talked about how hard it was to move normals and how he needed his limited space for snakes that he could sell, so when his eggs hatch out, he culls off any normals.

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Reading this made me enraged. Didnt know people culled normals off just because they dont make money, thats ridiculous!!! Good for you for walking away. I think Aaron summed up the mindset people should have quite well in his first post - I personally would keep them all because you assume the responsibility of bringing new life into the world.

Heres two videos for those who havent seen them: First one is eyeless and its from Ben Siegel and the second are kinked caramels from Kevin McCurley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aXLzznMFBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baquu5GYyVA

Just a correction the second video is made by Ralph Davis. Not Kevin from Nerd.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Guys, first of let me say I personally dont think there is any way I would be able to kill any snake of mine, especially one that I had bred and raised.

But depending on the type of mutation...culls need to be done. If we don't cull, the snake hobby will end up just like dogs, thousands of unhealthy animals, predispositioned to things like disease or organ malfunction. Just look at dogs. Not only are there tons of unwanted mutts that are too large in number to all get a nice home, but even all the normal, pure breeds of dogs come with lots of health risks and genetic deformities. It may take 10 years or 50 years or 200 years, but lets not let that happen.
At the very least, don't breed them.

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

Guys, first of let me say I personally dont think there is any way I would be able to kill any snake of mine, especially one that I had bred and raised.

But depending on the type of mutation...culls need to be done. If we don't cull, the snake hobby will end up just like dogs, thousands of unhealthy animals, predispositioned to things like disease or organ malfunction. Just look at dogs. Not only are there tons of unwanted mutts that are too large in number to all get a nice home, but even all the normal, pure breeds of dogs come with lots of health risks and genetic deformities. It may take 10 years or 50 years or 200 years, but lets not let that happen.
At the very least, don't breed them.

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I'm not breeding Quetzal (most likely), but I just wanted to point out that in the dog world, the purebreds with health issues are dogs that were not bred by reputable breeders. Those with genetic health issues, bad temperaments, and don't fit standard in terms of color or structure are "humanely culled" by speutering. Unfortanately you can't neuter a snake or garentee that the new owner will never breed the snake, and snakes themselves don't have such strict standards on what is considered good breeding stock. So either snake owners crack down and do some strict self regulating and adopt all the lovely (ick) politics of the dog breeding world or it'll all remain up to a person's personal judgement.

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

Guys, first of let me say I personally dont think there is any way I would be able to kill any snake of mine, especially one that I had bred and raised.

But depending on the type of mutation...culls need to be done. If we don't cull, the snake hobby will end up just like dogs, thousands of unhealthy animals, predispositioned to things like disease or organ malfunction. Just look at dogs. Not only are there tons of unwanted mutts that are too large in number to all get a nice home, but even all the normal, pure breeds of dogs come with lots of health risks and genetic deformities. It may take 10 years or 50 years or 200 years, but lets not let that happen.
At the very least, don't breed them.

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But if the animal is able to live a good life why doe sit need to die. why can't we as a community just take the responsibility and just not breed them?

I understand what some of you are saying, that a snake not fit for breeding isn't going to thrive. I'd say most of the time this is probably case, but not all of the time.As I said if the animal isn't going to be able to live a good life, putting it down is the best thing to do but if it can live a good live why not let it? If you breed an animal you need to be prepared to make the hard decisions then live with them.

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Originally Posted by Jazi

I'm not breeding Quetzal (most likely), but I just wanted to point out that in the dog world, the purebreds with health issues are dogs that were not bred by reputable breeders. Those with genetic health issues, bad temperaments, and don't fit standard in terms of color or structure are "humanely culled" by speutering. Unfortanately you can't neuter a snake or garentee that the new owner will never breed the snake, and snakes themselves don't have such strict standards on what is considered good breeding stock. So either snake owners crack down and do some strict self regulating and adopt all the lovely (ick) politics of the dog breeding world or it'll all remain up to a person's personal judgement.

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Gah, one of the reasons I love this hobby is that it doesn't have the crazy snooty politics of the mammal breeder hobbies. I've seen a couple of posts where users say that pet rat breeders will get all over you for breeding without apprenticing or something. Just... no. We have our silly fights and crazy arguments (BOI :rolleyes: ) but this hobby is very open minded for the most part, and diverse. I love it that way!

Anyway, as far as culling goes, I'd cull in a heartbeat if I felt that it was necessary. An animal starving itself, being born with incubation complications, or a kink bad enough to prevent a healthy life are some examples, but seeing as I don't breed yet I can't say for sure. I figure if the snake can eat and seems to be a good pet, I'll take care of it or give it to a home that wants it.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Im not questioning your choice but why not breed her? I mean bps dont have the best eyesite anyways and its not like they need to really see to breed. Is it bc youre afraid it might be genetic or something?

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Exactly the reason. Her breeder and myself both think it may have been incubation stress, but there were others in the clutch that were deformed, and some that were not. Personally, I don't see the need to breed what could be a genetic defect, knowing I might have to cull the babies, when she can live a perfectly normal life as a pet and spokes-snake for the hobby. I just don't think the possible reward outweighs the potential heartbreak.

Gale

You people are not understanding what culling is. Culling is not putting an unhealthy animal down. Its selectively killing healthy animals to control ratios. If you whoever you are think that culling is necessary then you need to stop breeding cause you dont have a clue.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

You people are not understanding what culling is. Culling is not putting an unhealthy animal down. Its selectively killing healthy animals to control ratios. If you whoever you are think that culling is necessary then you need to stop breeding cause you dont have a clue.

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Might be different in the reptile world, but culling when talking about pet mammals and livestock is removing undesired traits from the breeding stock. Many people reserve true culling (aka, euth) for animals with genetic traits that prevent them from surviving and use "humane culling" (aka spay/neuter) for animals that simply don't fit the bill when it comes to a pre-defined standard for what is "acceptable" and what is not. Culling when talking about deer populations is killing healthy animals to control ratios.

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Gah, one of the reasons I love this hobby is that it doesn't have the crazy snooty politics of the mammal breeder hobbies. I've seen a couple of posts where users say that pet rat breeders will get all over you for breeding without apprenticing or something. Just... no. We have our silly fights and crazy arguments (BOI :rolleyes:) but this hobby is very open minded for the most part, and diverse. I love it that way!

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As someone who will be getting two working dogs of the large german breed variety (GSD and Doberman no less) once I purchase a house, I definitely understand why the politics are there, but yes, they are quite annoying and people argue about them until they're blue in the face. I personally like the idea of an immediate spay/neuter used as "culling" for dogs that don't fit the bill, especially since there are so many unwanted and unhealthy dogs already being bred, but since that's not a viable option for reptiles we'd be left with killing off any undesired traits that show up or keeping specimens that show undesired traits to ourselves in a "not to be bred" section. Not really something that most people would look upon without at least frowning should breeding adopt such strict politics and standards.

So instead it's left to the breeder's own personal choice, and the buyer can judge from there whether or not the breeder is reputable enough for their time and money. I kind of like that nice break from the uptight mammal breeders in comparison, I just hope that those who think it's okay to breed severely kinked snakes that had to be forcefed their entire lives are soon laughed out of the hobby.

I dont 100% percent agree with that. The definition of culling:
cull (kl)
tr.v. culled, cull·ing, culls
1. To pick out from others; select.
2. To gather; collect.
3. To remove rejected members or parts from (a herd, for example).
n.
[b]Something picked out from others, especially something rejected because of inferior quality.[b]
[Middle English cullen, from Old French cuillir, from Latin colligere; see collect1.]
culler n.
Everyone will have their own position on this. If the animal cannot, absolutely cannot thrive on its own and live a healthy life... Then yes, I think it is the responsibility of the breeder to do what Is necessary. I've never had to cull a ball baby and I hope I never need to, but as the breeder I am prepared to stand by my animals whether it be good or bad. If someone is disposing of healthy animals for population control or simply because they aren't what they want, thats pretty awful and no they shouldn't breed obviously. But if one has to put an animal down because it will never live a functional life I think that's a responsible thing to do. And again I'm not talking about a couple kinks, or born without eyes, or even not starting to eat on its own right off. I will personally take as much time to help a baby along if it's maintaining a functional life. I will give a little one away to a good home or keep them in my collection no matter what the "potential" cost of the animal could be. I have a few lifers in my collection as it is bc I feel like they were considered disposable by their previous owners and since I took them in they are my responsibility. They'll never breed and that's ok. It's not that they are unhealthy they are just part of my pet personal collection.
Anyways that's just my .03c.


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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

I dont 100% percent agree with that. The definition of culling:
cull (kl)
tr.v. culled, cull·ing, culls
1. To pick out from others; select.
2. To gather; collect.
3. To remove rejected members or parts from (a herd, for example).
n.
[b]Something picked out from others, especially something rejected because of inferior quality.[b]
[Middle English cullen, from Old French cuillir, from Latin colligere; see collect1.]

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Focusing mainly on this, since I piped up only for the fact part and not the opinion (which is yours and completely fine to have :3 )

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Definition of CULL

transitive verb
1
: to select from a group : choose <culled the best passages from the poet's work>
2
: to reduce or control the size of (as a herd) by removal (as by hunting) of especially weaker animals; also : to hunt or kill (animals) as a means of population control
— cull·er noun

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Really depends on context. When done to livestock (why would you kill off healthy animals that fit standard instead of letting them grow to be eaten or sell them off?) or pet mammals, it's the removal of weaker and non-standard genes from the breeding pool. In livestock, that usually means death (why waste resources on animals that will not give max production?). In pet mammals, if they can survive, it usually means spay/neuter asap and rehome to a pet-only environment. Some breeders will kill the nonstandard pups, but that is becoming a lot rare due to the popularity of the spay/neuter cull instead. In animals that are hunted, culling is population control for things such as deer, wolf, and feral pig populations. Again, it might be different in the context of reptiles, but outside of that culling is not just people killing off healthy animals just to create a pretend limited resource.

We're talking about culling in the common useage sense of the word, not Webster's. Common useage for the the term culling in this hobby means sticking a snake in the freezer, and has for a long time. Plain and simple. Why a breeder chooses to do it (or not) is still up the individual.

Comparing culling in livestock versus pet trade animals are 2 totally different things. Now putting down unhealthy animals is abother different story. Yes if an animal is produced unable to survive then it needs to be put down. Culling for the better of the herd to provent population blooms and the spread of disease or malnutrition due to such population blooms is what i think of in culling. We cull the deer herds on my parcels of lands to ensure a healthy herd and healthy herd numbers as well as healthy sex ratios. Now thats what culling is. My responses are based off the original point of breeders killing totalky healthy bavies just because they cant handle the amount of normal animals they produce as a biproduct of their breedings. This is not culling.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

breeders killing totalky healthy bavies just because they cant handle the amount of normal animals they produce as a biproduct of their breedings. This is not culling.

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What do you call it?

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Originally Posted by snake lab

My responses are based off the original point of breeders killing totalky healthy bavies just because they cant handle the amount of normal animals they produce as a biproduct of their breedings.

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That was not the original point whatsoever nor anywhere near my thought process...that came in somewhere else along the line.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Comparing culling in livestock versus pet trade animals are 2 totally different things. Now putting down unhealthy animals is abother different story. Yes if an animal is produced unable to survive then it needs to be put down. Culling for the better of the herd to provent population blooms and the spread of disease or malnutrition due to such population blooms is what i think of in culling. We cull the deer herds on my parcels of lands to ensure a healthy herd and healthy herd numbers as well as healthy sex ratios. Now thats what culling is. My responses are based off the original point of breeders killing totalky healthy bavies just because they cant handle the amount of normal animals they produce as a biproduct of their breedings. This is not culling.

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And I gave examples of the different meanings of pet trade, livestock, and game animal culling in my posts, speaking to how it was different and how population control is not the only reason for culling nor is it the only definition. A baby snake that's kinked from head to tail and unable to eat would be culled; that's not a healthy animal killed for ratio control, it's protecting the breeding stock and saving everyone a lot of heartache in the process. You're right, killing off normals just because a breeder didn't have the foresight to expect them isn't actually culling, it's just someone being lazy and not wanting to deal with what they're producing. Culling is done to domesticated animals to keep bad breeding stock out of the gene pool, not to control populations, which gets back to my point :S

Should a baby snake with just a little kink in the tip of its tail be culled despite it being healthy otherwise? That's the point of the topic being discussed, I thought. And as my original post said, in the pet mammal world, the answer would be yes, though most breeders would opt to spay/neuter-cull instead. However, as I said, because the reptile world hasn't adopted the strict standards and politics that the mammal world seems to adore and embrace, that decision is left to the breeder and buyer.