Difference between a butter and a lesser?

So what exactly is the difference between a butter and a lesser? What genes are in them? What bred to what would make each? I have seen them lumped together as if they are the same, but maybe just 2 names used?

This is an ongoing debate. I personally feel that they are simply 2 lines of the same morph.

Both sides agree that both have the same mutated allele as they both are part of the BEL complex (if you breed them together you get a Blue Eyed Lucy) they are both base morphs, so they come from the wild and are not produced by combining morphs.

The other side sees butters and lessees the same way that the Mojave and lesser are, 2 seperate morphs that are similar because they both have a mutation of the same allele (but the mutation is different)

They are two separate single co dom genes. They look similar but have subtle differences in the super form and differences and when combined with other genes the combos look different from eachother. They are close to each other but a little different.

Other than the price tag, I personally think they're the same thing, but 2 different lines. IMO, they have the same kind of phenotypic allele. They have the same super form and make almost identical combos. When bred together they make the BEL as well.
Some may say there is a difference, but I think the only difference is due to being from different lines. (like saying Bell vs Lemon vs Graziani pastel).

If you take a pastel butter and a pastel lesser, I believe you wouldn't be able to tell the difference... Or at least I can't.

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Same!!! Exactly the same in my view what you pair with the lesser/butter often results in the Lesser or butter look(dark buttery or light);) Take it from me I've produced many lesser/butters from many different pairing's.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

This is an ongoing debate. I personally feel that they are simply 2 lines of the same morph.

Both sides agree that both have the same mutated allele as they both are part of the BEL complex (if you breed them together you get a Blue Eyed Lucy) they are both base morphs, so they come from the wild and are not produced by combining morphs.

The other side sees butters and lessees the same way that the Mojave and lesser are, 2 seperate morphs that are similar because they both have a mutation of the same allele (but the mutation is different)

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We will be shooting for some bels in a few years. We have a mojave, and a butter. Checked the genetics wizard on world of bps and saw that we could make bels. Just wasn't sure what the difference was with lessers. I still have a lot to learn about morphs and genes.

Everything I've seen of butters and lessers makes me think they're the same. You can have really high contrast, vibrant, and yellow versions of either, or you can have really muted, creamy toned versions of either. They are not different lines, they are the same in which there are a few lines.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Everything I've seen of butters and lessers makes me think they're the same. You can have really high contrast, vibrant, and yellow versions of either, or you can have really muted, creamy toned versions of either. They are not different lines, they are the same in which there are a few lines.

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x2. Ive seen both types of both morphs. They look the same bc they are the same morph.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

x2. Ive seen both types of both morphs. They look the same bc they are the same morph.

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Yeah, I thought they looked the same too.

To me the difference between a Butter and a Lesser is the exact same as the difference between a NERD Lemon Line Pastel, and a Graziani Line Pastel. both are pastels but look significantly different:

Lemon Pastel:

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...rchant/003.jpg

Graziani Pastel:

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...t/Pastel-7.jpg

I would be willing to argue the point that the difference between lessors and butters is even less than the difference between the Lemon Pastel and the Graziane Pastel, but they are considered the same morph.

Here is my butter.http://img.tapatalk.com/aefdc2f8-eef3-d50a.jpg

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

Here is my butter.http://img.tapatalk.com/aefdc2f8-eef3-d50a.jpg

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Looks really good, one of the nicer ones I have seen

For those who think they can tell the difference between the two - which one is the butter and which one is the lesser in this picture?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg

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Originally Posted by rabernet

For those who think they can tell the difference between the two - which one is the butter and which one is the lesser in this picture?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg

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Just for kicks, as I think they're the same...the busier, darker one is butter and the other is lesser.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Just for kicks, as I think they're the same...the busier, darker one is butter and the other is lesser.

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I would have said the exact opposite, but I have a feeling they are both the same lol

I would guess butter on the outside lesser on the inside. Just because the one on the outside looks closer to mine. And I saw recently some one post pics of what they called a lesser that looked like the inside one. Or are they both just different examples of one? Boy, this is apparantly a very debatable topic. I was just curious. :)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

For those who think they can tell the difference between the two - which one is the butter and which one is the lesser in this picture?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg

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I think your trying to trick us and they are either both lessers or both butters:D Im colorblind and cant tell the difference between butters and lessers either but I do think that their combos look a bit different which makes me think they are about the same but with a slight mutation making them a little different when mixed with other genes.

I'm going to guess that the one on top is the Lesser and the bottom one is the Butter.



Here's my lesser for any comparison.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...f/IMAG0811.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...f/IMAG0485.jpg

Different lines of the same gene.

Ralph Davis once told me even though they are co-dom the other snake, be it normal or morph, that it is paired with can effect the look of the offspring. So now a days we are seeing a large variety of lessers and butters not only from their lines but from past breeding. Back in the day when you paid $30,000 for a lesser male, most breeders would breed it to as many normal females as they could and the offspring picked up traits the pairing be it clean or dirty, browner or yellower, etc...

All Lessers come from Ralph's original lesser and butters were different lines brought in from Africa that looked different until they were all proven compatable.

I say its a slight color difference :D

If they are the same then why are the combos they produce different? Besides the super forms of both of course. I agree that they are similar alleles and are on the same loci or whatever but I think they have a subtle mutation that makes them two separate genes. I think they are just different genetic variations of the same gene.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

If they are the same then why are the combos they produce different?

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I don't think their combos are that different. And if there was a difference its due to the unique line traits or to the other parent morph's trait... I've seen pastel butters and pastel Lessers that look identical.

You never see pastels that are exactly the same. More blushing with one line or a brighter yellow with another...

Has anyone bred a Lesser Butter BEL? Can you tell whether the offspring is a butter or lesser?

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Rabernet, are you going to tell us??? :D

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I don't think their combos are that different. And if there was a difference its due to the unique line traits or to the other parent morph's trait... I've seen pastel butters and pastel Lessers that look identical.

You never see pastels that are exactly the same. More blushing with one line or a brighter yellow with another...

Has anyone bred a Lesser Butter BEL? Can you tell whether the offspring is a butter or lesser?

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Thats just with pastels, I'm talking about other more obvious morphs, pastels when mixed with anything that are light colored or washed out would be hard to tell the difference. Google a bunch of lesser/butter combos and the differences are light and day. Also yes I agree that there are large variances in colors and patterns within any gene. I have one lesser that is very faded out and light and one that is very bright with a solid pattern, I also have pastels that are very different from eachother.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

If they are the same then why are the combos they produce different? Besides the super forms of both of course. I agree that they are similar alleles and are on the same loci or whatever but I think they have a subtle mutation that makes them two separate genes. I think they are just different genetic variations of the same gene.

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to continue with my pastel analogy:

Do you think that these 2 snakes will make identical looking bees if I paired them with the same spider?

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...rchant/003.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...t/Pastel-7.jpg

Of course they wouldn't, the lemon line pastels color would be more apparent in the bee offspring, and the Graziani's blushing would be more apparent in its offspring.

2 different lines of the same morph with different looking combos

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

to continue with my pastel analogy:

Do you think that these 2 snakes will make identical looking bees if I paired them with the same spider?

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...rchant/003.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...t/Pastel-7.jpg

Of course they wouldn't, the lemon line pastels color would be more apparent in the bee offspring, and the Graziani's blushing would be more apparent in its offspring.

2 different lines of the same morph yet different looking combos

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Lol, I know, I get it. I like to play a little devil's advocate at times.

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

Rabernet, are you going to tell us??? :D

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Yes! LOL - they are both lessers from two different reputable breeders.

I personally could not pick out the butters from the lessers if they were all put into a bucket and I was asked to separate them. It's my OPINION that they are the same mutation.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

Thats just with pastels, I'm talking about other more obvious morphs, pastels when mixed with anything that are light colored or washed out would be hard to tell the difference. Google a bunch of lesser/butter combos and the differences are light and day. Also yes I agree that there are large variances in colors and patterns within any gene. I have one lesser that is very faded out and light and one that is very bright with a solid pattern, I also have pastels that are very different from eachother.

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because its not the lesser/butter allele making the snake look different than the other, its the possible multi-thousand alleles that vary in every snake, it's why we get differences in pastels and everything else.

heres was a thread i made with the intent of putting this to bed
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nd-lesser-vote

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

because its not the lesser/butter allele making the snake look different than the other, its the possible multi-thousand alleles that vary in every snake, it's why we get differences in pastels and everything else.

heres was a thread i made with the intent of putting this to bed
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nd-lesser-vote

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Yep:banana: