babies vs adults at shows

Ok so a question thats been bothering me. Why do more people buy babies at the shoes then adults? The reason i ask is at the last show i had 3 caramels on my table that were babies. Good lookin babies. Average mels. Now i also had the sire to the clutch for sale. He is a crider line smokin proven male. He didnt sell. But the babies flew. Why wait on.raising a baby when you can get the stud? The babies were priced at 400 and the breeder i had him at a bargain at 500. Only thing i can think of was he has a small spot on his head that was from an old rub from when he was a juvi and liked to rub the top of the freedom breeder but its nothing. I also had a smokin pied male breeder priced at 850 and he didnt sell but i sold a really nice pied male 250 grams for 850. Gimme your thoughts

Some people see the smaller number and jump on it without realizing they can buy the adult. But then there are others that like to raise there babies so they can know everything there is to know about them.

I like raising mine up, but in this case I definatly would have gone with the adult.

Well personally, I buy morph babies over adults because I'm "poor" (well not really but you get the idea) lol I myself am in no rush to start breeding and I like seeing my little ones grow up overtime so I don't mind starting off with babies over adults. Plus being a full time student with only a part time job (and online business on the side) I do like saving money while I'm at it.

Now if I had more disposable income and had adults ready to go for breeding purposes then I would definitely go after those adults over waiting for the babies to get up to size.

Idk i would have gone with the adults if thats what i was looking for???
Most people probably dont understand all the breeding stuff though...

SL,

I think you may be looking at it from a sucessful breeder's perspective. That breedable adult male is money in the bank for you because you don't have to feed and heat it for 6-9 months before it can produce plugs for your girls.

I'm exclusivley a collector, and I only keep males. When I pick up a new addition, I like to get them well started, but still under 250 grams if possible. With BPs of that size I've had great success getting them switched over to F/T, and I enjoy watching them grow and gain in size. It's a big part of the hobby for me.

I'm not saying I would never add an adult, but it would most likely be an exceptional circumstance like a rescue or something.

I don't like buying adults.......from personal past experience, if you are selling an adult, it is because there is somethingwrong with it......if it is a perfect animal....why sell it.....so to me, it is better to buy a younger animal because it is easier to fix feeding issues, and most other issues, in a younger animal.......just my preference......if you had babies and adults on the table at the same price, I will pick the baby everytime......

Jason

The previous couple posts say the same thing but I've already typed it out so here it goes:

With regards to breeding, I would never buy an adult female from anyone and would only buy an adult male from a breeder I have a relationship with. The caveat to this would be a collection sale which of course carries its own different sets of problems.

It most cases, it makes no financial sense for someone to sell a healthy, breedable female python. A single clutch will be worth several times over what she is worth. Why on Earth would somebody sell her...?

....because she's a poor breeder. An adult male is a different case but I still would be hesitant in case it too is a poor breeder. There is a much better answer than I can give on the Pro Exotics website as to why they do not sell (and do not recommend anyone buy) adult animals.


I'm not at all saying that you personally are selling poor breeders but as a general rule, I steer clear of adult animals because of this. In animals that aren't expensive morphs, the upkeep to get them to adult size is most likely to be more than the asking price. In this case, why the sale? On the other hand, an expensive adult morph is worth way more than the upkeep to get it to adult size but again... why is it being sold (male or female in this case) after all that hard work to get this valuable animal up to breeding size?

Of course, buying an adult strictly as a pet is a different story.

For me I buy babies because they are usually a lot cheaper than adults.

I bought a big normal & was told by the breeder that she was "mean" & to be very defensive when around her because she was a breeder, not a pet. Well, my 6yr old daughter walks around with her on her neck all the time, never seen one hint that she is mean.

Story being is maybe people think coming from a breeder that the adults are not handled much & prefer to start out early to avoid having a aggressive pet?

Or even that maybe a lot of buyers at shows are new to keeping snakes & the bigger ones intimidate them?

I buy babies because of their price tag. However, I would buy breeder sized females that are an affordable deal. I don't immediately think somethings wrong with her. Just because a breeder puts up a good breeding animal could just mean he's replacing her with something better and/or is downsizing their collection.
Like a het for a visual or something.

And I don't think I would buy a breeder sized male. Baby males grow to sexual maturity fast. Some even breed as young as a few months. Why waste space and money on a full grown adult male. You can cut down on food costs and housing space with a baby.

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Just to give people an idea on why an adult female or male may be for sale is most likely space. Lets say you have a 10 slot adult rack and you have some grow outs that are multi gene replacing the single gene adult female or male where are you going to put them? Not all of us have infinite amounts of space. To progress our collections towards higher end morphs and combinations single genes must move from time to time. That doesn't make them bad breeders but just not needed anymore for our purposes. Also to those saying "well why not breeder her because her clutch will be worth more than the sale price". That may be true but incubators don't have unlimited space either and that clutch may not be priority over another.

My only hesitation on buying larger/adult BPs is that I feed F/T. Most breeders with a reasonable number of snakes feed live, and I don't like switching adults over if I don't have to. That being said, I probably would have snagged the adult in both of the scenarios snakelab mentioned, if I was in the market for those morphs. Caramel and pied are two morphs that I see a lot of value in seeing how they retain color as they age.

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Originally Posted by HerpIsAhobby

Just to give people an idea on why an adult female or male may be for sale is most likely space. Lets say you have a 10 slot adult rack and you have some grow outs that are multi gene replacing the single gene adult female or male where are you going to put them? Not all of us have infinite amounts of space. To progress our collections towards higher end morphs and combinations single genes must move from time to time. That doesn't make them bad breeders but just not needed anymore for our purposes. Also to those saying "well why not breeder her because her clutch will be worth more than the sale price". That may be true but incubators don't have unlimited space either and that clutch may not be priority over another.

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This thread is about breeders large enough to vend shows, not pet owners or very small hobbyist breeders with a couple snakes that want more room. It is extremely unlikely a professional or large hobbyist breeder would turn away a healthy clutch of eggs due to incubator space or sell a breedable female at a loss because they ran out of space in a 10 tub rack set up.

I 100% agree that pet owners and small time hobby breeders may give up adult females for room. Spend some time browsing the websites of breeders large enough for ad space on this site and see how many adults you find for sale. There's a reason you'll find almost none.

I understand the points made and they are all good points. For me the reason i sell adults at times is not because there is anything wrong with them. It is because they have been replaced by a combo of that gene or im bot working with them anymore. For example, i am working with black pastel pied stuff so dont need a single gene pied, im working with less caramels now then i used to so i just dont need the extra male and he was replaced by a combo. There comes a point when you just dont need the animal. and you will never see an adult female for sale at one of my tables lol.

Well even the big breeders don't have unlimited amounts of space so selling an adult that doesn't fit still applies. Look at the BHB website or a few others and you'll see a few adults for sale and that number is sure to go up at the end of this breeding season as those adults get replaced with current hold backs. Plus I was only giving one example of a reason people may see an adult for sale other than thinking they are all up because they wouldn't/haven't bred.

Also you most definitely do not need to be big to vend at shows. There are people at those shows who get tables who may have 10-20 clutches a year.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Idk i would have gone with the adults if thats what i was looking for???
Most people probably dont understand all the breeding stuff though...

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I would say that not everybody is into breeding. Or maybe they have future plans that can wait a few years.

I prefer babies as well. Why? The same reason I prefer kittens and puppies: I can see them grow over the years. And I feel some kind of pride seeing that I raised them properly. Also, I tend to have better and stronger 'bonds' with the pets that I've had since babies.

Another plus of babies is the fact that most morphs have better coloration and looks as babies. Not to mention the price!

However, most of the times, the price of the adults is way less than it would cost you to buy the baby and get it to that size (food/water/substrate/electricity).

Although I prefer babies, if it's an excellent offer, I would take an adult without thinking it twice :D




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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HerpIsAhobby

Just to give people an idea on why an adult female or male may be for sale is most likely space. Lets say you have a 10 slot adult rack and you have some grow outs that are multi gene replacing the single gene adult female or male where are you going to put them? Not all of us have infinite amounts of space. To progress our collections towards higher end morphs and combinations single genes must move from time to time. That doesn't make them bad breeders but just not needed anymore for our purposes. Also to those saying "well why not breeder her because her clutch will be worth more than the sale price". That may be true but incubators don't have unlimited space either and that clutch may not be priority over another.

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^^THIS...

I know that big breeders will retire single-gene breeders from their collections as they are replaced by dual-gene or triple-gene breeders. Just because a proven breeder is for sale does NOT mean there is something wrong with it. Case in point, my breeder male mojave. He was on the breeder's table listed for $150 where his offspring were on the same table for $125. I asked the breeder why the breeder male was only $25 more than his male offspring. He said it was because he was replaced with a super-mojave male who was up to breeding weight and the single gene no longer fit into his breeding plans. I picked up up at 650ish grams in August, and he's up to 1100+ and has locked my female 7 or 8 times since November.

To OP, I can only speak for myself but I have 2 BP. One 22yr old female that I have had since she was very small, probably 100g or so when I got her, and one 2 month old albino I just bought at a show (125g). I like to watch them grow, that's part of the fun for me. I guess like someone above said, kind of the same concept as a puppy or kitten.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

Why on Earth would somebody sell her...?

....because she's a poor breeder.

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Though I normally buy babies, I would greatly disagree with this point. Maybe a few years ago this would have been more relevant, but this hobby/industry has blown up and is still growing. Not all breeders and hobbyists(I would argue most, in this case) have an endless amount of room to keep breeders, hold backs, and newer purchases...so when your hold backs and newer purchases are ready to breed, who are you going to let go? The proven breeder, even if he/she was an excellent breeder, to keep space for replacements that either carry an extra gene, or are a nice example, etc... Again, I have mostly purchased babies, but with the near breeders or proven breeders that I have purchased, my experience has been excellent.

If i can i will always buy a baby. This way I can learn its behavior and feeding better than an adult that has established its self in another collection.

Here is what I can think of

The pet owners: They want to see their animal grow, with many morphs becoming more and more affordable (<$1000) many people chose to have them as a pet and want to see their pet grow.

The breeders: For people looking into breeding the thought process when they see an adult is what is the problem with it.

Adult being available for sale make some people wonder, they wonder if there is something wrong with the snake, lazy male, female having issues etc, some those people don't realize that people who breed "upgrade" their collection as they go, letting go of proven breeders normal, single gene etc to replace them by multiple gene animals.

All points where very good, its depends on what ones plans are now or in future. A lot of onfo here today


thanks

OK I just started breeding but have had snakes for a long time. I usually dont buy adults of anything but recently bought a couple adults from people I knew and people I had checked out before hand. The reason I usually buy younger snakes that I am planning to breed is that I want to be a led to handle them for awhile before they breed. I really don't feel like putting my hand near a ticked off mom that has eggs and that I don't know. If I have handled the female for a year or two I know her body movement and after she has the eggs if something isn't quite right.