Black Throat Monitor questions

I currently have three Tegus but want to expand my collection to include a Black Throat.
I just spent the last two hours trying to find out some specific information. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of specific information out there without specifically writing to the authors of papers written about the species.
My questions include'
What is the size difference between males and females?
How long do they grow? (age)
Sexual dimorphism if any?
General ability to become tame?

There is a lot of information about range, diet in captivity, enclosure size, (6' to having their own room) and ultimate size potential. What is missing is average size in captivity, growth rate and all the above.
Can anyone out there help with this. Any information you can share will be very helpful and much appreciated.

http://www.proexotics.com/care_ionides.html

Thanks but I have read the Pro Exotics care sheet before. Unfortunately, it really doesn't answer any of the questions that I posted. Also, since their fire, they no longer keep or sell any large monitors or snakes.

If you're looking for adult information, whoever recommended a 6' cage is out of their mind.

12x6x4 minimum.

Whole food diet; fed every other day. Occasional weekly fasts if signs of obesity appear.

Chris

I don't much about them but I do know they have the jaw strength to rival an alligator and their jaws can lock and not let go if I remember correctly. So be careful. Besides niles, water and croc monitors black throats are crazy strong and can infict serious wounds to actually removing digits. Again be careful.


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Originally Posted by Dana C

Thanks but I have read the Pro Exotics care sheet before. Unfortunately, it really doesn't answer any of the questions that I posted. Also, since their fire, they no longer keep or sell any large monitors or snakes.

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There is not much size difference between males and females. Males are generally larger.

Their adult size is stated in the link I provided. 5-6 ft average but I have seen some HUGE ones. They will generally reach 2/3 their adult size in the first year.

There is no sexual sexual dimorphism

They can become very tractable but can also be terrors. Either way they are not lap pets.

PE does still have there Varanid projects, as they were kept in a separate facility than the one that was unfortunately lost in the fire.

Hope this helps, if your looking for a all inclusive caresheet your not going to find much better than the PE one. If you wanting to put the effort in PM me and I can point you in the right direction to some sites with TONS of info. You just have to put in the effort and read ( sort) through alot of posts.

What is the size difference between males and females?
I agree with the above, there's no real difference in size.

How long do they grow? (age)
They tend to grow big very fast when kept properly. 2-3 years SHOULD see your monitor at 'full adult' size, approximately 6 ft. Please understand that "6 feet" is not comparable to a 6 ft iguana, or other slimmer species of lizard. Black throats are HEFTY animals, even when they are not obese, and they are powerful creatures.

Sexual dimorphism if any?
None.

General ability to become tame?
Hmmmm. While I've heard the "MY blackthroat is dog tame" routine... normally it's a monitor kept without a proper basking spot, underfed, etc. There are a few people with fairly "tame" blackthroats. But honestly, IMO, a healthy well adjusted blackthroat would as soon tail whip you in the ear as look at you. I'm extremely pleased that mine don't generally threaten to bite me, although they do remain fond of tail whipping me in the ear every chance they get.

And they're deadly accurate at it too. I'm not certain how they reach 5 feet away with a tail that's only 2 feet long, but somehow I swear they do it.

As far as the growth and such... my Wilson(male) was rescued/given to me at 7 years old. He was about 2 1/2 feet long, fairly thin, and regarded as "very tame!" Of course, asking about his husbandry found that "Room temperature is fine!" and that a single mouse hopper ONCE A WEEK was sufficient food for him.

I'll wait while the monitor keepers stop their eyes from twitching.

Once I had him under a proper basking light, built his diet up to a healthy amount of whole prey, eggs, ground turkey, fresh fish fed to him at least every other day, dirt to dig in, a water bowl he could soak in if he wished... he turned into a complete *bleeep bleep bleeping bleep*. He went from a lethargic stuffed toy to a holy terror, constantly watching and rushing at anything. In two years, instead of being stunted by his early years, he's almost as large as my Moggie now... a respectable 6+/- feet long.

In contrast, my Moggie(female) was bought as "captive-bred" but was almost certainly a WC import. She was about 2 feet long when I bought her, and within a year she had gained to easily 4 feet. Now she's 6+ feet and very heavy, yet not obese(I work hard to make sure they don't get obese).

Over the years, I've built an 8ft x 8ft outdoor pen(Florida weather!) and several indoor cages. I'm about to build a new outdoor enclosure since the old one lasted about 5 years. Blackthroats tend to be destructive of caging, and you should build to cage a chimp. They are extremely strong and extremely determined and single-minded and will pry open seams, tear apart wood and wire and scrape plexiglas until you want to scream at them.

All that said, I really enjoy them as monitors. I appreciate them not as "dog tame" but as wild creatures that tolerate my taking care of them. When I haul their water bin out, wash it clean, carry water to refill it and Moggie promptly takes a giant monitor-reeking dump in it and gives me that "middle-finger look".... I consider it to be just part of owning a giant lizard that would rather eat you to cuddle with you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

If you're looking for adult information, whoever recommended a 6' cage is out of their mind.

12x6x4 minimum.

Whole food diet; fed every other day. Occasional weekly fasts if signs of obesity appear.

Chris

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X2 on this one. I kept 2 adults for 4 years they need a ton of room, feeding them raw chicken and ground turkey can help cut food costs when u get a good deal on them. and Forget about how long the grow the are extremely heavy bodied animals, they can clear 35lbs in 3 years easy. as for temperment spend alot of time with them when they r small is the best advice i can give you.

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Originally Posted by AGoldReptiles

There is not much size difference between males and females. Males are generally larger.

Their adult size is stated in the link I provided. 5-6 ft average but I have seen some HUGE ones. They will generally reach 2/3 their adult size in the first year.

There is no sexual sexual dimorphism

They can become very tractable but can also be terrors. Either way they are not lap pets.

PE does still have there Varanid projects, as they were kept in a separate facility than the one that was unfortunately lost in the fire.

Hope this helps, if your looking for a all inclusive caresheet your not going to find much better than the PE one. If you wanting to put the effort in PM me and I can point you in the right direction to some sites with TONS of info. You just have to put in the effort and read ( sort) through alot of posts.

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I will PM you a little later. I am very much up to doing the research and do so regularly on all my critters and everything else that interests me. This is going to be a challenge. The girl I will have on Tuesday is a little over a year old and 2.5-3'. She tails whips but doesn't bite according to the current owner.

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Originally Posted by kevinb

I don't much about them but I do know they have the jaw strength to rival an alligator and their jaws can lock and not let go if I remember correctly. So be careful. Besides niles, water and croc monitors black throats are crazy strong and can infict serious wounds to actually removing digits. Again be careful.


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If you don't know a lot about them, why do you have anything to say? I have been doing my research and I have never read that posted by any Black Throat Monitor owner.

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Originally Posted by Dana C

If you don't know a lot about them, why do you have anything to say? I have been doing my research and I have never read that posted by any Black Throat Monitor owner.

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Thats really rude. You ask for opinions and when someone throws their 2 cents in you tell them to shutup basically?

Actually, I think it needs to be said more often. People very new to keeping reptiles have questions that need answering by knowledgeable people. All the forums have too much, "I heard that.... or A guy told me...." quasi information. There is a wealth of good information out there. I was simply trying to glean some or at least be pointed in a direction to find it. What I got was bad information from one poster who did not know, quite obviously, what he was talking about and I might add was incorrect.
I know that no one can stop a post with either good or bad information but don't you think that someone should point out bad information and coach the person sending it to have first hand experience before pontificating about a species or that species behavior.
My original post indicated that I had studied all the information I could find easily and that I had specific questions which didn't include how hard Black Throats bite but covered very specific points that I found no reliable information about.

I am sorry if you think it sounded rude. I posted it in a moment of frustration.

In the wild, blackthroats are supposed to crack giant land snail shells in their jaws. That takes a lot of pressure, so yes, they have very powerful jaws. I'd say probably as strong or stronger than a COMPARABLY SIZED alligator. I wouldn't say they are as powerful as a full grown 14 ft gator... but size-to-size, I'd bet they're close.

Croc monitors have removed fingers(I've seen the pictures), and blackthroats are built similar to more heavy in the jaw. I wish I could find the link to the guy who lost a finger, but since my laptop crashed, I lost all the cool links I'd accumulated.

Blackthroats WILL lock onto something and not let go. I've seen this with my own, heard stories of it from three other people. Moggie latched onto a leash and held it for nearly half an hour before turning it loose. Heard the same time line for someone's shoe. They are stubborn.

so it looks like kevin wasnt totally wrong and contributing false information...

I said I didn't know much, but I DID know that....so thanks for clearing that up. Its not my lose of digits or blood.

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We have a local petstore called the serpentarium. They have 4-5 full grown black throats at their lodi, CA facility. They are as tame as can be and are housed properly with proper temps. My 5 yr old daughter walked up to one and pet him on his head (under supervision of course). They are one of the more tame species of monitor as long as handled and what not. GL to you in finding one :)

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I found one via a Tegu forum that I contribute to. I am trading one of my three Tegu's for the Black Throat which is a 2.5-3' probable female. According to the owner, she is fairly tame. She seems to enjoy being stroked but tail whips when picked up, which is pretty normal for a juvenile lizard, monitor, or tegu. She has never bitten however.
My adult male Tegu, Gordo bit me lightly once. He wasn't being agressive at the time but more curious. It broke the skin a little but that was it. He has never given me a threat display or anything since that one time. My 9 month old female did the same.

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Originally Posted by Dana C

I found one via a Tegu forum that I contribute to. I am trading one of my three Tegu's for the Black Throat which is a 2.5-3' probable female. According to the owner, she is fairly tame. She seems to enjoy being stroked but tail whips when picked up, which is pretty normal for a juvenile lizard, monitor, or tegu. She has never bitten however.
My adult male Tegu, Gordo bit me lightly once. He wasn't being agressive at the time but more curious. It broke the skin a little but that was it. He has never given me a threat display or anything since that one time. My 9 month old female did the same.

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The thing I have noticed when picking up monitors is they don't really tail whip, its more of them trying to balance. They aren't usually specifically trying to tail whip you, they just don't feel safely planted when first being picked up. The only time i have been bit was when my hand smelled like croc chow because i didnt wash them and it was more of a test nip. In general they dont really bite unless they have to, because they really dont see you as a food source. Thats where the tail whips come in. If they want to be left alone they will take a whipping stance that you will know when you see it. Good luck with yur new girl and post pics when you get her...

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Thank you for the input. That is the kind of stuff that I want. I never thought about tail whipping in that sense before and it makes me think of Gordo, my adult male Tegu. I does it most when I first lift him out of his cage. Once he settles in on my shoulder, he is fine.

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Originally Posted by Dana C

Thank you for the input. That is the kind of stuff that I want. I never thought about tail whipping in that sense before and it makes me think of Gordo, my adult male Tegu. I does it most when I first lift him out of his cage. Once he settles in on my shoulder, he is fine.

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It seems like tail whipping because their tails are so powerful, but its more of a flailing trying to balance thing. Don't get me wrong, some will tail whip, but the more docile species and ones that have been handled more often tend to flail just trying to feel secure and balanced...

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Yah well tail whipping is no fun, I got picked by an 8 foot male croc monitor on a mid branch trying to empty a water basin, looked bad the next day felt worse, had to get stiches on my ear, split part of my lip, broke skin on my face, missed my eye by inches, my ear was swollen for a week, the doctor asked if I got slapped by a T-rex, inside joke hes a friend. I swear i was like 6feet away, freaking tail whipping sniper. apparently he was sleeping and basking, startled him. I make lots noises when I clean out cages now...lol:colbert: whip me once shame on me,...

Haha! They are sneaky buggers aren't they!?

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Originally Posted by IceColdCuban

Yah well tail whipping is no fun, I got picked by an 8 foot male croc monitor on a mid branch trying to empty a water basin, looked bad the next day felt worse, had to get stiches on my ear, split part of my lip, broke skin on my face, missed my eye by inches, my ear was swollen for a week, the doctor asked if I got slapped by a T-rex, inside joke hes a friend. I swear i was like 6feet away, freaking tail whipping sniper. apparently he was sleeping and basking, startled him. I make lots noises when I clean out cages now...lol:colbert: whip me once shame on me,...

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Whipping sniper, that's great. Tail whips suck, that's for sure...

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Well, I got my girl today. I let her get out of the bag inside her set up. The trader, told me she would eat right out of the box and he was right. She ate an impossible amout of ground turkey, beef, liver and calcium supplements. She is about 30" long as near as I can guess.
I left her alone after that for a few hours. I went to her cage and she puffed up and hissed like a cobra. When I opened the sliding door, she stood up puffed up and was generally not liking me at first. She came to my hand licked a few times and backed off. I put my hand further in and got tail whipped for my effort. I put my hand in again and this time the tail whip was sort of whimpy. I waited with my hand in her enclosure for few minutes and slowly, while talking to her softly, stroked her head and jowls. She also let me stroke the underside of her chin. She actually closed her eyes at one point which I thought was a major thing. I have been in her room a couple more times today and she stands up and huffs, puffs and hisses but after a minute or two she calms down and approaches my hand. At one point, she came to my hand and lifted her head up so I assumed she wanted a under the neck rub which she did.

So far so good. I am totally smitten by her. Based upon the amount of food she is able to consume, she will be 18' in a few days. HAHAHA

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Originally Posted by Dana C

Well, I got my girl today. I let her get out of the bag inside her set up. The trader, told me she would eat right out of the box and he was right. She ate an impossible amout of ground turkey, beef, liver and calcium supplements. She is about 30" long as near as I can guess.
I left her alone after that for a few hours. I went to her cage and she puffed up and hissed like a cobra. When I opened the sliding door, she stood up puffed up and was generally not liking me at first. She came to my hand licked a few times and backed off. I put my hand further in and got tail whipped for my effort. I put my hand in again and this time the tail whip was sort of whimpy. I waited with my hand in her enclosure for few minutes and slowly, while talking to her softly, stroked her head and jowls. She also let me stroke the underside of her chin. She actually closed her eyes at one point which I thought was a major thing. I have been in her room a couple more times today and she stands up and huffs, puffs and hisses but after a minute or two she calms down and approaches my hand. At one point, she came to my hand and lifted her head up so I assumed she wanted a under the neck rub which she did.

So far so good. I am totally smitten by her. Based upon the amount of food she is able to consume, she will be 18' in a few days. HAHAHA

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Glad you got her, let her settle in with as little stress as possible and I'm sure she will calm down even more :D good luck and where r the pics?

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I have read much of what is available about BT's from Pro Exotics and other sources.
Here is something which wasn't covered. I traded a Tegu for what the seller thought was a female BT. I noticed that when he/she was first put into her set up, that I thought I saw a hemi penis as it marked its new home. I saw it again when I gave him or her it's first bath today. It marked the bathroom, and me.
I think I read somewhere that females have hemiclitoral apendidges. Do they or do I have a male. It is ok either way. I just want to know for naming purposes and behavioral observations.

Also, he wasn't sold to me as "tame". According to the seller he is about a year or a year and half old and is currently about 32". However, I noticed that he really responded to my voice talking to him softly. After getting tail whipped a couple of times, he as never tried it again except for a couple half hearted muted whips. He comes to my hand and puts his head into or under my hand to be stroked. He closes his eyes and seems to really enjoy it.
In the bathroom, (I got him on Tuesday by the way), he didn't fight being picked up at all and seemed to enjoy his bath. After the bath he explored and climbed on me and marked the bathroom and me as well. He explored some more and climbed onto my leg, (I sit on the floor), up my shirt onto my shoulder pancaked and promptly fell asleep. I can hardly believe how much he trusts me and seems to want my company. Is this normal? Don't get me wrong, I am totally smitten by him or her and blown away by the temperament. I was expecting something much more aggressive. The basking area is around 110f and the cool end is mid to high 80's by the way. I am just lucky or is he / she special or will it turn into a Japanese three headed monster terror later on?

Is it a male based upon what I told you?

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Originally Posted by Dana C

I have read much of what is available about BT's from Pro Exotics and other sources.
Here is something which wasn't covered. I traded a Tegu for what the seller thought was a female BT. I noticed that when he/she was first put into her set up, that I thought I saw a hemi penis as it marked its new home. I saw it again when I gave him or her it's first bath today. It marked the bathroom, and me.
I think I read somewhere that females have hemiclitoral apendidges. Do they or do I have a male. It is ok either way. I just want to know for naming purposes and behavioral observations.

Also, he wasn't sold to me as "tame". According to the seller he is about a year or a year and half old and is currently about 32". However, I noticed that he really responded to my voice talking to him softly. After getting tail whipped a couple of times, he as never tried it again except for a couple half hearted muted whips. He comes to my hand and puts his head into or under my hand to be stroked. He closes his eyes and seems to really enjoy it.
In the bathroom, (I got him on Tuesday by the way), he didn't fight being picked up at all and seemed to enjoy his bath. After the bath he explored and climbed on me and marked the bathroom and me as well. He explored some more and climbed onto my leg, (I sit on the floor), up my shirt onto my shoulder pancaked and promptly fell asleep. I can hardly believe how much he trusts me and seems to want my company. Is this normal? Don't get me wrong, I am totally smitten by him or her and blown away by the temperament. I was expecting something much more aggressive. The basking area is around 110f and the cool end is mid to high 80's by the way. I am just lucky or is he / she special or will it turn into a Japanese three headed monster terror later on?

Is it a male based upon what I told you?

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Females will invert their scent glands when defecating and what not. They will look different than hemipenes. The hemipenes will be long tubes that "flower" at the tip, female scent glands are tapered and shorter with no "flower" at the end. As far as temps go, my Asian has a basking of 130° which is about the standard, but I am unsure if the BTs need less or more. They usually only tame as they get older, so as long as your handeling and everything she/he will continue to tame as they get older.

Watch this to see the "flower" that I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cV21...e_gdata_player

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Based upon what you said and some more reading I am sure that she is a he....now for a good African name...:D

Ok here are some names. These are all male Bantu male baby names. Bantu is the predominate tribe in Tanzania which includes the Massi and a 120 others. Most of their names have some reference to God or character in one way or the other.

Take your pick and reply. Have fun! The boy needs a name!

AZIZI - Precious One
BARAKE - Gods Blessing
BAICARI - Promise
BELAY - Superior
CHIAMAKA - God is spendid
CHIMELU - Make of God
DEMBE - Peace
JABULANI - Happy
JABARI - Brave
KENDI - The loved one
KHAIRI - Kingly
KINABO - Gift from God
MAHDI - The Expected One
NAEEM - Benevolent One
RAFILA - Friend

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Originally Posted by Dana C

I am totally smitten by him or her and blown away by the temperament. I was expecting something much more aggressive. The basking area is around 110f and the cool end is mid to high 80's by the way. I am just lucky or is he / she special or will it turn into a Japanese three headed monster terror later on?

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Blackthroats are typically very tractable animals and have great personality. One of the best captive lizards, if you can handle the size of the animal and caging.

110F is quite low for basking, get it at least over 120F, 130F is a good target. And remember that the basking spot should encompass the ENTIRE animal, not just a spot on the animal. With larger lizards, we typically use 2-3 of the Halogen 50 watt Flood bulbs to create a large enough area for the lizard to properly bask.