Larry doesn't know anything?

I've been doing business with Larry at Critter Barn for over a year now. A certain member of this website who is local had me convinced for a bit that he knows nothing even though a part of me knew that was asinine. I've been talking to him a lot lately, great conversations about the industry and his experiences. Now I am certain that he should be well respected by all of us, and that any piece of advice that he gives freely on a daily basis should be cherished. And i'll tell you why. He is 70 something and has been keeping all kinds of reptiles and other exotics since he was a child. He has at least 50 years of experience at making a living on reptiles, birds, mammals and many other exotics. He has traveled the world. He has spent weeks at a time in countries such as South America, Brazil, Africa, and other Latin and tropical countries out in the field doing research. Learning as much as he could about anything that he could. Catching known species of snakes and other exotics as well as searching for new species. He was around before ball pythons were ever bred in captivity. He was there when everyone said that ball pythons would never breed in captivity. He proved them all wrong. He may very well be the very first person to ever breed ball pythons in captivity. At the least he was one of the very first. Taking all of this into consideration, how could anyone say that he knows nothing or that he's full of crap unless they just don't know what all he's done. How can you argue with fifty years of experience? Just because you think that using grams is of the utmost importance, doesn't mean that it's important at all. Ask Larry about grams he'll say "What the hell is a gram?" He has two-three ball pythons per tank, has been doing it that way for god knows how many years and has never had any problems or seen any stress at all from them. Tell him that ball pythons are solitary he'll say your full of crap and probably tell you about the nests of ball pythons he has found in Africa. This is not meant to offend anyone in any way. This was not meant to bring up arguments. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But I think that I would much rather believe the man who has decades of experience with ball pythons and who is probably the father of the ball python industry than any modern day belief that goes against what he says.

Not to start a big deal but how do you not think this thread is gonna start an argument? Lol good luck

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Originally Posted by evan385

He has spent weeks at a time in countries such as South America, Brazil, Africa, and other Latin and tropical countries out in the field doing research.

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Not sure who this Larry guy is, but this doesn't help your argument.

I worked at a petstore with a guy who had been keeping reptiles for about 30 years.......I would not trust him to keep a cricket alive for more than a few minutes......just saying......just because you have kept reptiles, or seen them in the wild, doesn't mean you know anything.....I don't know this guy from anyone, nor do I care to, but just pointing out the obvious flaw in your thought proces.....years of keeping experience means absolutely nothing.

Jason

People giving advice need to understand that there is more than one way to do things. Those on the receiving end on that advice need to learn to take it with a grain of salt and think for themselves..

I don't necessarily accept the general consensus that balls stress each other out when housed together. We did this for a few years and I've seen first hand how they constantly seek each other out to "cuddle". Do I think it's the best idea? Not anymore, no. I think that feedings can be problematic, and identifying those with illnesses can be difficult. If those aren't concerns that another keeper shares, then more power to him/her.

When I was lived Knoxville, I spent quiet a bit of time talking to Larry, he is an "old timer" that has experience that some only dream of. He would tell me of days that he use to keep W/C vipers in big tall pickle jars (seems like hees got a few war scars on his hands to prove it). There has been alot of evoultion in the keeping of reptiles sence the days of then. I agree with you, he does know his stuff,,,, but he does things the way he knows, and the ways that works for him. To me, he IS one of the poineers, I dont know if he has any publications, or his name in any books, but he has been there,, and done that.
Though I respect the man, I choose to do things different from the way he does. When keeping ones own reptiles, we should look at all the info, new and old, and make our own decisions as we feel best.
spooky

Another little tid bit of info for the info jar. Its been proven that animals in captivity live longer then in the wild. So just because ball pythons are huddled in termite mounds in the wild doesnt mean this is beneficial. It just means this is how they survive in the wild. We keep them in captivity to live not to hang on and survive. Jack hannah has traveled the world and has alot of knowledge but that guy is a tool. So just because some 70 year old guy whos had snakes since he was a kid doesnt make him a forefather of a thing.

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Originally Posted by Dabonus

Not sure who this Larry guy is, but this doesn't help your argument.

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Lol that was my bad xD

Mr. Spooky is the only one who gets it because he's the only one who has actually talked to him. You would have to actually sit down and have a conversation with the man to understand. Please be aware that I work third shift and haven't slept so some things may come out wrong. Also thank you to Spitzu for being open minded. You two are the only ones who didn't respond negatively, to the rest of you there's no reason for that. What works for him may not work for you and everyone has their own way of doing things. I never said that I would house multiple snakes together, I have separate tubs for all three of my snakes. As I said everyone is entitled to their own opinions. There is no need to take any of this offensively I have not once said "You need to do it this way because Larry does it this way" I have simply stated my opinions. I don't know if his name is in the books somewhere but it should be because he is definitely a pioneer to this industry.

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Originally Posted by JTrott

I worked at a petstore with a guy who had been keeping reptiles for about 30 years.......I would not trust him to keep a cricket alive for more than a few minutes......just saying......just because you have kept reptiles, or seen them in the wild, doesn't mean you know anything.....I don't know this guy from anyone, nor do I care to, but just pointing out the obvious flaw in your thought proces.....years of keeping experience means absolutely nothing.

Jason

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I have been doing business with him for over a year. I have never once seen a single animal in his care that wasn't at the peak of health. So please think about it before you make a comment like this. You know nothing about him other than what I have stated and you have no right to compare him to your pet store failure. As I said he's made a LIVING breeding reptiles and other exotics. Obviously he's doing something right. What works for him may not work for you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

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Originally Posted by evan385

. He has spent weeks at a time in countries such as South America, Brazil, Africa, and other Latin and tropical countries out in the field doing research. Learning as much as he could about anything that he could. Catching known species of snakes and other exotics as well as searching for new species.
.

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When did South America and Africa become countries?:confused:
I'm only 22, but I've done everything stated above and more. Is he a scientist? What kind of trips were these? What research? I'm honestly curious.

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" He has two-three ball pythons per tank, has been doing it that way for god knows how many years and has never had any problems or seen any stress at all from them. Tell him that ball pythons are solitary he'll say your full of crap and probably tell you about the nests of ball pythons he has found in Africa.

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The term solitary in the animal kingdom means that they are not a group, herd, or pack animal. Ball pythons do not help each other in Africa. They don't hunt in strategic packs, nor do they protect or alert each other. They do not seem to show any form of ' affection' or similar behaviors displayed in social animal groups. This is why many have determined that snakes are not social animals. They only really come into contact during mating season.


So he's talking about multiple nests found together or multiple balls in a nest? Animals can be solitary and nest in the same area. It just means its an ideal location to lay their eggs and not that they're a community animal. Has he observed whether or not these snakes continued to live together after nesting and hatching? The snakes probably went their separate ways after, meaning they are solitary.
If they were social, wouldn't more people know about it by now?

Personally, I don't house my snakes together because I believe that they're solitary animals(because I do). I house them separately to avoid the spreading of illness and mites if some sort of outbreak did occur. It's easier to maintain and observe individual snakes who are infested or sick. If one ball was to regurgitate a small meal, you may not know which snake did it when in a group setting. And while it is not common, cannibalism does occur among snakes. So why put your snakes at risk? Even if its a minimum risk, its still a risk. While these snakes are in our care and captivity, we should be housing these snakes to the best of our ability to avoid all risks.

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I don't know the guy, so I'm not going to judge him. However, there are some things that you mentioned about him that I do not agree with.



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evan, I don't know who Larry is, and I'm sure Larry wouldn't give the square root of a rat's butt to know who I am, but I do know a few things.

1) 70+ years of doing something, doesn't mean you've been doing it right...just means you've been doing it a long time.

2) Running around catching wild snakes in countries like Africa doesn't make you an expert on their captive care...probably doesn't hurt, but doesn't make you an expert.

3) It does not take a Wile Coyote Super Genius to breed BPs in captivity...just read the Breeding Forum long enough and that will become self evident.

4) My great grandparents washed their clothes on a board in the river. Today I wash my clothes in a machine. It's easier and the clothes are cleaner and they last longer. Doesn't make what my great grandparents did wrong...doesn't make me wrong either.

5) The manner in which I keep ball pythons is based on my previous experience, my anecdotal observation, and the advise of those I trust. I can only assume Larry does the same thing. That does not mean I will ever agree that it's ok to house multiple BPs in the same enclosure, but if that's the way he does it, then he should rock on with his bad self.

5) You should take your advise from the sources you trust most. But, I'm not convinced that defending the husbandry ideas of a 70 year old guy who while certainly experienced, has clearly not kept up with modern husbandry science, or clearly does not care, advances the discussion?

In my personal experience I've noticed, "Old Timers" tend to be stuck in their ways. That's not to say they are right or wrong, they just tend to disagree with newer studies and findings. I personally try not to argue or pass judgement on someone strictly by what they say, only how they act as a person. If Larry is a great guy and he disagrees with a lot of information that the masses accept as right or wrong, so what?

When I have someone that has "50 years of experience" and offers me advice, I will accept the advice but not necessarily take it as law. I will do my research and make my best decision based on what I read/hear. Anyone that is quick to call another out and pass judgement on someone because of what they say should take a good look in the mirror.

All that matters is, I treat my animals the way I see fit. You can treat your animals how you see fit. I have nothing to say about it.

[QUOTE/3) It does not take a Wile Coyote Super Genius to breed BPs in captivity...just read the Breeding Forum long enough and that will become self evident.[/QUOTE]

LMAO :p

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I agree with Satomi and Slim

Just want to re-state the fact that just because someone's been doing something for a long time, it doesn't automatically make them an expert. Slim's 4th point is an important one. The way he's been doing things was fine back in his day, but our methods have evolved since then to be MORE beneficial to the animal.

x2 this ---v

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Personally, I don't house my snakes together because I believe that they're solitary animals(because I do). I house them separately to avoid the spreading of illness and mites if some sort of outbreak did occur. It's easier to maintain and observe individual snakes who are infested or sick. If one ball was to regurgitate a small meal, you may not know which snake did it when in a group setting. And while it is not common, cannibalism does occur among snakes. So why put your snakes at risk? Even if its a minimum risk, its still a risk. While these snakes are in our care and captivity, we should be housing these snakes to the best of our ability to avoid all risks.

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Sometimes when people have been doing something a certain way for so long its hard for them to change their idea of it. Or to listen to those with less time invested. Not saying that's what he is doing by any means. Animal husbandry changes all the time. It evolves with the animal to create ideal living conditions. 20 years ago I saw some crazy things the way reptiles were kept by their owners, today it would be inaccurate to house them in such ways. We are constantly improving our husbandry skills to allow the animal to live a longer and as much of a stress free life as possible. If you knowing modern practices, have seen the way he does things currently and believe he knows what he's doing then I'm sure he does.

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See evan i told you it would start an argument lol

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Originally Posted by Slim

but if that's the way he does it, then he should rock on with his bad self.

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Nicely put. X2

If he does all this and it works for him, awesome! It's good to have multiple sources of information and insight, you can usually learn a thing or two. However, just because one guy does something that works for him like housing multiple BPs together, does not mean that it's a free card to show to newer keepers to say it's alright. Just like there are some more experienced reptile folk who don't have hot spots and instead keep the room at a constant ambient temp, I really wouldn't recommend it as a practice to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

There's no need to get defensive about members disagreeing with this guy's practices. The simple part of the matter is that there are more pros (mostly in record keeping and preventing diseases) when keeping BPs singly. If you or others wish to do differently, no one is going to stop you. We don't have any right or ability to. I just get worried when issues like this come up because I can see a person newer to BPs looking at multiple housing being ok with an older experienced guy, and rather than putting the health of the animal first they decide to get multiple snakes for one enclosure just to save space. Without the experience to tell if the snake is stressed or not it could be disastrous.

I suppose my whole point is that most of animal keeping, snakes or others, is finding out what works for the animal and you. Naturalistic enclosures, racks, rubbermaid tubs on shelves, the list goes on. There isn't a right or wrong. Personally, I think it's easier to keep my BPs apart. I can keep track of who's doing what. Since I've only been keeping snakes for about 2 years I think it's beneficial that I can tell what snake had a runny stool or other such issues and there aren't any questions as to what snake.

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Originally Posted by Valentine Pirate

If he does all this and it works for him, awesome! It's good to have multiple sources of information and insight, you can usually learn a thing or two. However, just because one guy does something that works for him like housing multiple BPs together, does not mean that it's a free card to show to newer keepers to say it's alright. Just like there are some more experienced reptile folk who don't have hot spots and instead keep the room at a constant ambient temp, I really wouldn't recommend it as a practice to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

There's no need to get defensive about members disagreeing with this guy's practices. The simple part of the matter is that there are more pros (mostly in record keeping and preventing diseases) when keeping BPs singly. If you or others wish to do differently, no one is going to stop you. We don't have any right or ability to. I just get worried when issues like this come up because I can see a person newer to BPs looking at multiple housing being ok with an older experienced guy, and rather than putting the health of the animal first they decide to get multiple snakes for one enclosure just to save space. Without the experience to tell if the snake is stressed or not it could be disastrous.

I suppose my whole point is that most of animal keeping, snakes or others, is finding out what works for the animal and you. Naturalistic enclosures, racks, rubbermaid tubs on shelves, the list goes on. There isn't a right or wrong. Personally, I think it's easier to keep my BPs apart. I can keep track of who's doing what. Since I've only been keeping snakes for about 2 years I think it's beneficial that I can tell what snake had a runny stool or other such issues and there aren't any questions as to what snake.

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Thank you! I agree with this post completely. Now, i've been up for twenty four hours and I am extremely exhausted. I did not want an argument and was not suggesting that anyone change the way they do things. I also never said that I would change the way I do things (what i've learned here) just because of what he says. And again the "countries" was my bad, I work third shift and i'm tired! Can we all agree that everyone has something that works for them and call it a day? Who am I kidding? This is BP.net and people will continue to post regardless. Either way i'm done with this thread.

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Originally Posted by evan385

Who am I kidding? This is BP.net and people will continue to post regardless.

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By Jove! I think he's got it! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by evan385

I did not want an argument and was not suggesting that anyone change the way they do things. I also never said that I would change the way I do things (what i've learned here) just because of what he says.

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Which leaves me scratching my head and wondering why this thread was started in the first place????? To defend a guy who nobody attacked in the first place? Hell...I only saw one person respond who even knows who Larry is. :confuzd: :confuse:

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Originally Posted by evan385

I have been doing business with him for over a year. I have never once seen a single animal in his care that wasn't at the peak of health. So please think about it before you make a comment like this. You know nothing about him other than what I have stated and you have no right to compare him to your pet store failure. As I said he's made a LIVING breeding reptiles and other exotics. Obviously he's doing something right. What works for him may not work for you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

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I find it funny, that in your previous post, you are downing people for talking negativley about your post, but there you are doing the same think......pot....this is kettle.......he's black.

As you have said, everyone is entitled to his/her opinions, and I posted mine, but yet, you posted the above, which I have made bold, just to make sure you don't miss it, saying that 'i have no right'....really......make up your mind.....we are either gonna have a discussion, or we are all going to agree on something.....which I am not gonna do in this case....sounds like you are a little sensitive, and not very receptive of other opinions.......

I will no longer post on this topic. Obviously, if you don't agree with the OP, you are wrong.......since I don't agree, I will quietly walk out the door, and say Good Day.

Jason

It's kind of funny that OP said he didn't want an argument, yet he was the one who got super defensive and MADE it an argument. No one had an attitude before he commented back. I thought they were very neutral posts, if only a little wary/skeptical.

Most of my other opinions have already been mentioned, so I'll leave it with this: Just because he did it for 50 years doesn't mean he did it right for 50 years. Not saying he's wrong, just something to consider.

Going back to the basics... definitions of the word "forum":
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=forum

By starting a thread in a forum, your actions would indicate by definition of the word forum, that you are agreeing to enter into an open discussion of opinions and practices. If you are in fact just posting to state a one sided comment, I suggest you look into MySpace or blogpost, and journal your opinions.

I have said throughout that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I never once said this is the way you should do it because this is the way he does it. Also what don't you understand about working third shift and having been up for 24 hours? Wouldn't you agree that human thought processes are impaired under extreme exhaustion? To be perfectly honest I have learned the most and have learned the best methods on this website. You guys are awesome. If you didn't care then you wouldn't post saying "Well that doesn't make it right just because he's done it for so long" you would all just say "Well it's not my problem if you wanna listen to an old timer who's stuck in his ways." But you don't do that. You give great advise and tell it how it is because you care. Thank you. And as far as nobody attacked him, it was a member here who said that he's an idiot and has no idea what he's doing. I did go a little too far with this and some people took it the wrong way but the main thing I was getting at is that he does what has worked for him for 50+ years and even though he hasn't kept up with modern husbandry it doesn't necessarily make him wrong. If you got anything else from that such as you're doing it wrong and you should do it this way or he's done it so long so he must be right and you should just ignore what you know then I apologize because that is not what was intended at all.

Personally I don't know the guy, don't much care.

But when you post a thread, you shouldn't expect for people to only agree or it's "negative" posts. Discussing something, or dare I say, disagreeing with you is not "negative posting" just because people don't agree. If there was ONE person who said the guy is an idiot, why is that person not entitled to their opinion of him? Furthermore, why post a long diatribe as if all of BP.net are totally against the guy... just because one person said he's an idiot? Why not respond via PM (or email or whatever) with the person you disagree with?

You can think he's the bee's knees all day long. I'll still think he's doing things wrong, but he's entitled to do things however works for him. You're entitled to do things the way you want to, you're also entitled to think he's doing things right.

People used to keep dogs almost strictly out in the yard, no bathing, just throwing them the scraps leftover after the people ate, let them run loose all over with no vaccines. If someone did that now, would it be okay, if the dogs were pretty healthy? Most people would say no. The people doing it would say yes. Just because you do something for 50 years doesn't mean it's the right way, the easiest way or the safe way.