Breeder Trade Gone Wrong - a doozey of a story

Guys, I'm in a really awful situation and I'm posting this because I'd appreciate your input or your support. The whole story begins with what I realize now was a risky and stupid decision on my part and I've learned my lesson.

I'll post a short version first, you can read all the details below if you want.

Not naming names; the other guy's actions weren't malicious and he doesn't deserve to be blacklisted.


short version: you do a breeder loan, use a contract, and your snake dies with the other guy. You sympathize with his bad situation and decide not to force him to pay you ALL the money he owes. He takes way too long to start paying you which violates your contract and in the meantime you're wasting money feeding his snake that you'll have to give back to him and he has nothing to give back to you. You also have to spend a fortune at the vet caring for his snake which he didn't do for your snake. You realize that on top of all that, paypal's taking 3% of the money from you. You start to feel like you should have the legal right to be compensated for more than you even originally asked for in the contract, let alone the contract amount. What do you do?

So I want to know what you guys would do in this situation.

You decide to do a breeder loan with an acquaintance. You give him one of your males, he gives you one of yours. They are of approximately equal worth.


You write up an extremely thorough contract, you make two copies of it, both parties sign it and both parties keep a copy.

You agree ahead of time on which females you'll both breed the males to. If you decide to breed more females later on, you'll have to say so in writing and both of you have to sign it before you do it.

You both promise that your snake will be in perfect health and won't infect the other's collection, and that you take responsibility for the risk of putting the other's snake in you collection.

You both promise to either quarantine the foreign snake appropriately, or to absolve the other party of liability if you quarantine improperly or not at all.

You both promise to pay for medical attention for the other's snake up to a certain amount.

You both promise that, in the case of the other's snake dying with you, you'll pay the other a certain amount of money. To try to discourage neglect etc, you set this value a little bit higher than the market value of the animal. You both promise to pay, say, $700 even though the respective animals are worth maybe $450-$500 market value.

You meet the guy and learn more about him. He has an extremely impressive collection and has extremely expensive hobbies. You get the impression that he'd be more than capable of coming up with money if he had to. The contracts get signed in the presence of two neutral 3rd parties, all is well, you trade snakes and go about your business.

Fast forward 4 months. Nobody's females have conceived, rotten luck.

Your trade buddy has been friendly and communicative so you're pretty at-ease with them.

As time passes he vents to you a couple of times about valuable snakes dying on him. You get a little bit nervous about your snakes well-being, but you figure you have the contract as a safety net.

He suddenly contacts you one day after a lull, to tell you that your male has an RI and asks if he can treat it with baytril. You say OK and ask to see the vet bills.

He's quiet for a while before admitting that he doesn't get his antibiotics from a vet. He gets it in bulk from a breeder friend, pet store owner friend, something. This freaks you out and you tell him you want a proper vet visit. He assures you that he's used the baytril before successfully and he wouldn't be reckless, after all, he would have to pay you inordinately if it died. You reluctantly give him permission.

A month goes by, your male is recovering! You relax.

Time passes. He contacts you suddenly again, this time to tell you your snake suddenly died without warning. He's so sorry. He'll pay you like he promised.

You decide to refuse to return his male until he's payed off the balance. He agrees that it's fair.

There's no sign of any money after a long time. The contracts specified the amount of time between snake death and in-full payment, which has long since passed. You get impatient and hassle him.

You discover that he'd essentially been gambling. Much of his money had come from loans and his plans hadn't all worked out, and the loans were falling through. He asks you to be patient and promises you'll get your money. He's selling his collection.

Being a considerate person, you decide to only ask him to pay a portion of the balance, say $550. He's grateful.

Almost a year has passed since you traded snakes and the loan was only supposed to be a few months long. His snake comes down with an RI and it spreads through most of your collection. You take them (10 snakes) to a reptile vet and pay for the first visit, tests, a medical-grade nebulizer and some vapor-medicine, antibiotics, a re-check appointment, and two re-fills of antibiotics. This all costs you about $700 because your reptile vet sympathizes with you.

You can't breed or sell any of your animals while they're sick. Money gone.

You're out one male and you can't use the one you have in it's place anymore because the contract expired and you want to abide by it. Money gone.

You've been feeding this guy's snake for a year, about 7 months longer than you agreed to. He only fed yours for about 5. He's going to get it back beefed-up on food he didn't pay for.

After an unnerving period of time, he promises to send you about $300 soon. You point his ass to paypal. When he gets around to it, it turns out to be near $200 and paypal takes 3%.

You then freaking LOSE YOUR JOB. You're now running on your savings.

You feel ripped-off. You feel entitled to more money, all things considered. The other person acted irresponsibly and you wound up having to pay for it. You've given them chance after chance and wound up screwed over. You have a contract with his signature on it and you could easily take him to small claims court or send it to collections, but your forgiving nature tells you to be even MORE patient. The guy's struggling.

MY QUESTION IS THIS: Considering everything that's happened, would you or would you not hold them accountable for more money?
The contract holds them responsible up to $700, but there's also
- the money you spent on the vet caring for his snake AFTER the contract expired,
- the fact that you fed his while yours was dead,
-the fact that you missed out on a breeding season completely, AND
-the fact that paypal is deducting 3% of everything he gives you

You could take him to small claims court for the $700 and possibly more (due to the RIs, feeding, etc. Keep receipts and records of everything), but it would cost you money up front to do that. I would absolutely hold him accountable for the full amount agreed upon, instead of you cutting him some slack. I would recommend taking him to court over it, especially if you're not trying to save a friendship (doesn't sound like he was a friend to start with!), if you have the money to do so. Sorry things went wrong here, it sounds like plain bad luck. :( Good luck.

(PS- I am a newbie to snakes, but I have seen stuff like this countless times with dogs, horses, etc.)

I would just keep his snake and dont look back expecting money from him. The guy sounds like a real winner....Hes selling his whole collection anyways and you know youre not going to get yours back from him bc he essentially killed it through what sounds like neglect. Im assuming that the 2 snakes that were involved in the deal were worth about the same here so keep his and move on.

That sure sucks!!
The male on loan would be mine as it is the only thing of value to get out of the deal and I would just walk away. I would also make others aware or his neglect to his animals AND contractual obligation. :gj:

Is the male you have worth anywhere near the one you lost?
Would you even want to keep his?

If you want it, ask that he give you a receipt for the snake with a value on it.
If it is less, you could take him to small claims court for the difference.

I would send a bill asap, adding a reasonable "per-week/day" charge for all future care of his snake. This should help motivate this person to deal with your agreement.
(edit/add) I dont believe you can bill for past care that's not part of your contract.

Since you agreed to the lesser amount of $550, that's what you're entitled to now.

You're not entitled to any compensation for Paypal fees, especially since you pointed him to Paypal, and you should have known they charge 3%, it's part of accepted loss using their service.

Since you signed to feed and care for his snake, you cannot charge him for food or vet care, especially not for vet care for your own animals, since you agreed to whatever quarantine procedures you felt needed to protect your animals.

When your snake died, if you wanted to not pay for his male's upkeep, you should have returned him then. Of course, then you'd have no bargaining chip, so it's understandable to not return the only collateral you had.

At this point, you should decide if his male is equivalent to the $350 he still owes you. Only the original condition of the male should be considered in your value estimation, to be fair, since you're the one that's been caring for it all this time. If you felt it was the same value as your lost snake, and valuable enough to bring it into your breeding program, it must have some value, and you've gotten $200(the Paypal fee is yours to absorb, you can't deduct that fairly, by Paypal's own rules, in fact, unless previously agreed upon).

Going to small claims court isn't likely to gain you anything. If you did win, you'd have spent a ton of your time and money, and he's not any more likely to have the money to pay you then than he has it now.

Keep his snake, and if needed, sell it(as long as it's healthy)for the money he owes you(after sending him a legal letter stating you are willing to keep the snake as payment for the remaining $350). If he's selling most of his collection for money, he should be happy to not have to send you cash he apparently doesn't have.

If you're dead set on him paying you that $350, I'd tell him you will be considering posting on the BOI, and send him a legal letter stating he has XX time to repay the remaining funds.

Inform him that you are keeping his snake as payment for the one you lost. Just call it even with him and walk away with a lesson learned.

If the guy really is selling his collection, then outting him on the BOI will just cause drama for drama's sake and won't really affect him in the long run.

On the other hand, since certain people who frequent the BOI live for drama, go ahead and post the story...might spice up their Monday over there...

If he is selling a collection that's partially sick or exposed to the sick(dead) animals, perhaps the BOI would be good to attempt to warn buyers.

You had me with you just until "His snake comes down with an RI and it spreads through most of your collection." How can his snake coming down win an RI after being in your care for 7 months be his fault?

I would do as advised. File a small claims court or keep his snake but make the agreement in writing.

I would personally keep the snake of his with a letter stating that he has xx time to finish paying for the value of your lost snake and that after x time you will sell his snake and keep the moneies it makes to cove r part of what he owes you.
I agree a BOI would be wise to prevent any one from hetting a sick.dying snakes from him and possible costing them money for vets bills they really don't want or can't afford.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by womsterr

You had me with you just until "His snake comes down with an RI and it spreads through most of your collection." How can his snake coming down win an RI after being in your care for 7 months be his fault?

I would do as advised. File a small claims court or keep his snake but make the agreement in writing.

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THis was my question as well. How long was the snake with you before it got the RI?

Either way, I would try to separate the emotional part of it and look at what you are owed vs. what you have. I agree the vet bills and Paypal are likely on you per your contract. That leaves the matter of the snake on hand. If is of proper value (you never said what you lost or what the one on hand is) then talk to him about you keeping this male and cutting your losses there. Overall, the whole thing seems like a lame deal, but that happens. Best to cut your losses and move on.

Have the other person sign a document agreeing to let you keep his snake plus the money sent to your PayPal account as a final settlement and note that the original contract has been fulfilled and has ended.

Then walk away and never look back.

What a mess. At least you have the 200 and a live snake I guess.
Since he's going to probably just sell the bp maybe yall could agree on you doing it could for him then just give him what's left over from what he owes you after the sale. Might be waiting long time for another paypal payment otherwise. GL

The actual validity of the contract would be more suspect than anything should you choose to take legal recourse. As far as his snake becoming ill after the contract had expired, and infecting your snakes...it was still in your possession and became ill while in your possession, so that's a dead issue. Keeping his snake and calling it a wash is probably the way to go, and let it be a tough lesson learned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slim

If the guy really is selling his collection, then outting him on the BOI will just cause drama for drama's sake and won't really affect him in the long run.

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Slim, a lot of people get out of this hobby just to get back in.

Firstly, sorry for resurrecting this thread. After posting it I was suddenly inundated with work and I only got the chance to address it now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by womsterr

You had me with you just until "His snake comes down with an RI and it spreads through most of your collection." How can his snake coming down win an RI after being in your care for 7 months be his fault?

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Sorry, I realize I wasn't very clear. I did keep his snake in quarantine for about 3 weeks just to feel reassured. During that time I noticed clicking and hissing noises and notified the other guy. He said he hadn't noticed it and it might be skin stuck in the nostrils, and after the next shed it went away. After that I let it near my collection.

A little while later the clicking appeared in other members of my collection. The whole process took months and escalated extremely slowly.

Basically, I know it came from his snake, but I realize there's no way to prove it and even if I could, it wouldn't matter considering I accepted that risk in the first place. I only mentioned it because it makes me angry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Since you agreed to the lesser amount of $550, that's what you're entitled to now.

You're not entitled to any compensation for Paypal fees, especially since you pointed him to Paypal, and you should have known they charge 3%, it's part of accepted loss using their service.

Since you signed to feed and care for his snake, you cannot charge him for food or vet care...

When your snake died, if you wanted to not pay for his male's upkeep, you should have returned him then. Of course, then you'd have no bargaining chip, so it's understandable to not return the only collateral you had.

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I agree with you about the paypal charges. When I originally made this thread I was pretty steamed, but I'm willing to admit now that I should absorb those charges myself.

However, I’m not sure about the amount I’m entitled to. I agreed to the reduced amount of $550 over an instant messenger, and since that time, many other issues have come up. Firstly, a lot of time passed since I settled for less, meaning I spent a lot of money on the upkeep of his animal beyond the time I agreed to. Secondly, I only agreed to look after his snake given the fact that he was looking after mine. For a considerable amount of time, I’ve been pouring money into his animal while mine no longer exists.
Are you saying I have to accept the $550 because that’s what the law says, or just from an ethical standpoint? He signed a piece of paper saying he’d be liable for $700. I feel that that alone means he owes me $700, bottom line.
I’m really in the dark here and I just want this situation to end as fairly as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by womsterr

You had me with you just until "His snake comes down with an RI and it spreads through most of your collection." How can his snake coming down win an RI after being in your care for 7 months be his fault?

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VERY VERY EASILY--if the RIs are due to a virus and NOT a bacterial infection. I've had snakes with RIs. They do not generally spread, because a snake has to be slightly immunocompromised to develop a bacterial respiratory infection. I had one or two snakes come down with an RI each year when i was cooling to breed. Since I stopped doing so...I haven't had any snakes come down with one. I never had snakes appear to pass it to each other, and never removed the ones who had it from their spot in the rack. If your grandma has pneumonia, it's ok to give her a hug. If she has a cold, or the flu, it's a different story.

When you start getting snakes coming down with an RI one after another, and nothing weird has happened (like a power outage and cold temperatures), you should wisk them into quarantine, and get a vet to treat them aggressively. Most viral illnesses in snakes are not easily diagnosed. What happens is, they'll be given antibiotics, and they will either live, or they will die. The antibiotics will only prevent a secondary infection, they won't make the animal well--the illness will run its course on its own.
This is exactly what happens in humans who have Influenza.
Yes, the vet will be able to culture SOMETHING from them, but that doesn't mean that the bacteria they culture are the root cause of their infection.

If you have a snake on loan from someone, and they start saying they have snakes DYING from Ri....get that snake away from your animals, and quarantine everything it's touched...for a YEAR, because some of these viruses can incubate for over TEN MONTHS.

THAT is how he could be responsible for the snakes in her collection getting sick after she'd had his snake for 7 months.

Is that what happened? I don't know, but I do know that if I ever did a breeding loan, every animal I bred to the loaner male would go into quarantine with him, and they would not come out again for 12 months.

I think the contract was a bit ill-advised, as there should have been some plan for what would happen if either party defaulted on their responsibility.

I also think he should have been held to the full amount.
The contract should have included a clause for you to keep his animal if he was unable to pay you.

I think small claims court is a possible solution, but if he's gambled himself into debt, he may simply not have the money to pay you, anyhow.