Are pythons overrunning the Everglades?

Some experts now say no

(Reuters) - Reports that Burmese pythons are devouring almost entire populations of mammals in the Florida Everglades are premature, according to some exotic species experts and a co-author of a widely quoted study.

The idea of pythons annihilating the Everglades made headlines after a January 30 study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science said researches found severe declines in the population of small and mid-sized mammals.

The study presented data supporting its hypothesis that "Burmese pythons have severely reduced populations of several species of formerly common mammals" in the Everglades.

"Do I think we have an impending disaster? I don't think so," said Scott Hardin, exotic species coordinator for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.

"That study should have never made it to the light of day," said Florida herpetologist Shaw Heflin, known to many as host of National Geographic's "Python Hunters" show. "I don't see anything thus far to point to the fact that these pythons are causing serious harm."

The study compared sightings of animals along park roads before and after the year 2000, which is when the authors say pythons were recognized as being established in the park.

It found a 99.3 percent decrease in observed raccoons and a 98.9 percent decrease in observed opossums, the two most frequently encountered species, as well as decreased sightings of white-tailed deer, bobcats, rabbits and foxes. Sightings of rodents, coyotes and Florida panthers increased.

"The magnitude of these declines underscores the apparent incredible density of pythons in the Everglades National Park," the study concluded.

Everglades National Park spokeswoman Linda Friar said park biologists have "no hard science" demonstrating there has been a dramatic reduction in mammal populations.

Most of the 1.5 million-acre park is inaccessible wilderness.

The size of the python population is unknown with estimates ranging from a few thousand to tens of thousands, according to Friar. Many pythons are believed to have succumbed from the cold during the 2009 and 2010 winters, according to Heflin and Hardin.

Heflin criticizes the authors of the study for failing to fully investigate and dispose of other factors that could account for their observations, including a decade-long drought, cyclical population fluctuations, increased development and pollution.

"There's almost always some other factors going on and certainly in the Everglades, we know that hydrology and water levels plays a huge role in animal abundance," Hardin said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81N24120120224

I've recently been down to the everglades, and I didn't see a single burn in the 6 hours that I was there.... There can't possibly be that many there.

I really don't believe there are that many, at least nowhere near 10,000+. We all know that people like to exaggerate when it comes to big snakes and fear mongering.

As a south Florida resident I must say that there are a large number of pythons cohabiting the everglades these days... but the damages reported seem really out of proportion. Pythons fall prey to many of the species mentioned and as predators they're doing a great job removing some of the overpopulated nuisance critters who cause real problems.

The only real issue I've noted involves the occasions where pythons prey on the endangered key deer, though to be completely the species wasn't thriving all that well before anyone considered snakes as a culprit. The deer were dwindling in number for a reason...

In any case, we can only blame owner negligence. Fair? Not at all, but we're talking about an area where a lot of dog breeds have been banned because of human incapacity too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ohlacey

As a south Florida resident I must say that there are a large number of pythons cohabiting the everglades these days... but the damages reported seem really out of proportion. Pythons fall prey to many of the species mentioned and as predators they're doing a great job removing some of the overpopulated nuisance critters who cause real problems.

The only real issue I've noted involves the occasions where pythons prey on the endangered key deer, though to be completely the species wasn't thriving all that well before anyone considered snakes as a culprit. The deer were dwindling in number for a reason...

In any case, we can only blame owner negligence. Fair? Not at all, but we're talking about an area where a lot of dog breeds have been banned because of human incapacity too.

---

I sense a troll. You just joined today and your first response is to this thread. Log off and go python hunting...

My family runs a charter boat service in islamorada in the keys and i go down alot. I was there for 3 weeks in august and i went with my cousin who is a airboat tour guide in the glades and didnt see one single python and believe me i looked. The locals down there are saying the winter of 2010 wiped out alot of native species so if native species succombed to the harsh temps it had to have a huge effect on the pythons considering they havent adapted to seeking underground shelter to escape the cold. My cousin also said that fiah and game are more concerned about the over population problems with gators then pythons. If there is an over population proble of gators then it would be safe to say that they are the ones responsible for the mamals getting eaten then pythons doing it considering a gator is going to eat more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ER12

Some experts now say no

(Reuters) - Reports that Burmese pythons are devouring almost entire populations of mammals in the Florida Everglades are premature, according to some exotic species experts and a co-author of a widely quoted study.

The idea of pythons annihilating the Everglades made headlines after a January 30 study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science said researches found severe declines in the population of small and mid-sized mammals.

The study presented data supporting its hypothesis that "Burmese pythons have severely reduced populations of several species of formerly common mammals" in the Everglades.

"Do I think we have an impending disaster? I don't think so," said Scott Hardin, exotic species coordinator for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.

"That study should have never made it to the light of day," said Florida herpetologist Shaw Heflin, known to many as host of National Geographic's "Python Hunters" show. "I don't see anything thus far to point to the fact that these pythons are causing serious harm."

The study compared sightings of animals along park roads before and after the year 2000, which is when the authors say pythons were recognized as being established in the park.

It found a 99.3 percent decrease in observed raccoons and a 98.9 percent decrease in observed opossums, the two most frequently encountered species, as well as decreased sightings of white-tailed deer, bobcats, rabbits and foxes. Sightings of rodents, coyotes and Florida panthers increased.

"The magnitude of these declines underscores the apparent incredible density of pythons in the Everglades National Park," the study concluded.

Everglades National Park spokeswoman Linda Friar said park biologists have "no hard science" demonstrating there has been a dramatic reduction in mammal populations.

Most of the 1.5 million-acre park is inaccessible wilderness.

The size of the python population is unknown with estimates ranging from a few thousand to tens of thousands, according to Friar. Many pythons are believed to have succumbed from the cold during the 2009 and 2010 winters, according to Heflin and Hardin.

Heflin criticizes the authors of the study for failing to fully investigate and dispose of other factors that could account for their observations, including a decade-long drought, cyclical population fluctuations, increased development and pollution.

"There's almost always some other factors going on and certainly in the Everglades, we know that hydrology and water levels plays a huge role in animal abundance," Hardin said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81N24120120224

---

Here we go again with the misinformation...

Huff post started this and then issued a second report due to the public outcry pointing out the lack of study and evidence.. If you read this entire thing they go on to say there are other major changes taking place also. The pythons are not the cause of any mammals disappearing.. that much is obvious.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...b_1257911.html

Now let me find the link about how no pythons have been seen since the cold snap last year with the exception if a couple sick or dying ones....

There is absolutely not an over population of pythons in the glades. When the initial numbers were created by the politicians and their scientists, they took the number of pythons that had been seen or captured in a certain area and multiplied that by the entire square milage of the glades.. Not taking into consideration that those pythons are not aquatic and most of that square milage would be uninhabitable by the pythons since it is under water.. The entire thing was very blown out of proportion from the beginning.

Common sense people... Is there no more of that anymore or are the trolls all thinking like the politicians now..

Here we go..
Where have all the pythons gone??
http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.ht...ons.vanish.cnn

And I meant to quote and reply to Ohlacey in my first post.. Sorry about that....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I sense a troll. You just joined today and your first response is to this thread. Log off and go python hunting...

---

Sorry for my input. Silly of me to think I should post a response to a topic on an Internet forum...

:confused:

Gators kill more key deer then the pythons. But the biggest killer to the key deer has been humans. As growth and developement pushes the limits around the keys it takes away their habitat pushing them deeper into areas overwhelmed with gators.

Wow... I'm really sorry, guys. I spoke only from personal experience. I haven't been out for a few months but I'd seen several pythons a week when I guided horse-back trail rides.

I really didn't mean to step on toes. Thought that was clear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Gators kill more key deer then the pythons. But the biggest killer to the key deer has been humans. As growth and developement pushes the limits around the keys it takes away their habitat pushing them deeper into areas overwhelmed with gators.

---

Cars take out even more than the gators do, annually I'm pretty sure. I only mentioned it as a thought...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ohlacey

Cars take out even more than the gators do, annually I'm pretty sure. I only mentioned it as a thought...

---

Ohlacey.. Did you check out the 2 links I posted? The one by huff post and the CNN one?

Ohlacey. Your not steppin on toes. Oppinions, views, stances, debates, its all what the forum is. Im not attacking. Just pointin out some things. The facts about the glades pythons have been so twisted by the media. And the facts are that pet owners ate not the ones that released the amount of pythons it would take to create a problem. Was there a number of pythons in the glades? Sure there was. Was it because of owner release? No way. It was a direct result of hurricane andrew and the destruction of zoo miami and other breeding facilities. Did the pythons snack on wildlife? Sure they did. They had to eat. But they did not endanger any species in the glades. They simply competed against the gators food source. Now the most important fact. The winter of 2010 not only killed of the majority of the puthons but it also killed off alot indiginous animals as well. A fact that supporters of the python ban ignore still now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Ohlacey.. Did you check out the 2 links I posted? The one by huff post and the CNN one?

---

I didn't notice the video until you posted this, but I don't doubt a bit of it. Thanks for sharing the links, though.

Again, I was only speaking from experience. By no means do I have even a hint of a strong voice or opinion politically (though I'm sometimes ashamed to admit that).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

Ohlacey. Your not steppin on toes. Oppinions, views, stances, debates, its all what the forum is. Im not attacking. Just pointin out some things. The facts about the glades pythons have been so twisted by the media. And the facts are that pet owners ate not the ones that released the amount of pythons it would take to create a problem. Was there a number of pythons in the glades? Sure there was. Was it because of owner release? No way. It was a direct result of hurricane andrew and the destruction of zoo miami and other breeding facilities. Did the pythons snack on wildlife? Sure they did. They had to eat. But they did not endanger any species in the glades. They simply competed against the gators food source. Now the most important fact. The winter of 2010 not only killed of the majority of the puthons but it also killed off alot indiginous animals as well. A fact that supporters of the python ban ignore still now.

---

I didn't know it went so far back... I know we've had a couple odd population booms since Andrew ripped up Africa USA. In fact, my house is built next to a whole bunch of baobabs and we've seen more than a few monkeys that date back. (though most of those guys have moved south now)

And I know pythons definitely didn't contribute to the endangerment of key deer. The species has had a hard time sustaining for a long enough time period for anyone to look at the situation in a different light. (I can't cite you on that one, though)

I was definitely under the wrong impression if being released wasn't such a contributing factor in their population rise, though. I suppose I ought to check some more statistics on my own state before relying on just my own experience... Half of what you see, none of what you hear, right? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I sense a troll. You just joined today and your first response is to this thread. Log off and go python hunting...

---

:rolleyes:

You need to retune those senses a bit. :P

Trolls are pretty rare on this site as we do look for them ( and other suspicious accounts and behaviours ) I promise. ;)


dr del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ohlacey

I didn't notice the video until you posted this, but I don't doubt a bit of it. Thanks for sharing the links, though.

Again, I was only speaking from experience. By no means do I have even a hint of a strong voice or opinion politically (though I'm sometimes ashamed to admit that).

---

I don't doubt that you have seen them in the wild. Many I that area have. It's just that lately they have not been seen and there have been reports coming in from the people who have been actively hunting them that there are very few if any to be found.

It's true that the population was primarily started by the hurricane destroying a large facility that held many imports. There were genetic tests done on many of the initial Burms caught to prove this.

We can only hope that the cold spell did in fact reduce the population that much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I don't doubt that you have seen them in the wild. Many I that area have. It's just that lately they have not been seen and there have been reports coming in from the people who have been actively hunting them that there are very few if any to be found.

It's true that the population was primarily started by the hurricane destroying a large facility that held many imports. There were genetic tests done on many of the initial Burms caught to prove this.

We can only hope that the cold spell did in fact reduce the population that much.

---

Actually, it's been since October 2010 since I've seen any. I just moved back to S. FL a year ago from north central, so that makes quite a bit of sense. (insert embarrassment here)

And I had no idea. Then again... I was one when Andrew rolled through Florida.

I was born and raised in Florida, lived there for 20+ years, and never saw a python in the wild :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

:rolleyes:

You need to retune those senses a bit. :P

Trolls are pretty rare on this site as we do look for them ( and other suspicious accounts and behaviours ) I promise. ;)


dr del

---

Hey Del,

Had you been the first one to see the post, you would have been "looking". For a "reptile owner" to come to reptile forum and state a bunch of uneducated remarks about a very fresh and sensitive subject in the reptile community, it sure raised my brow. Still does to be honest.

I adore my snakes. I know everyone here does as well but I know more than a few people here who own pythons because they're not hard to obtain in the area. To me they seem the sort who would just release them if they didn't have the means to care for them properly.

My op was purely experience related. I guided horseback trail rides out of Davie, Florida to an airboat ramp. My job was to spot and point out various wildlife to our guests on the way. In the area there are a lot of species that you really wouldn't expect... due to nuclear power plants cooling canals (though I could be wrong about this, too?) we even have a thriving population of crocs down here. I don't, nor did I intend to state, that the ban or any related matter was appropriate or that the statistics were accurate. I did say I thought it was incredibly out of proportion. I was out there every day, though, and pre 2010 I did see pythons.

I apologize for my apparent lack of clarity, but I didn't quote, cite or reference any sources. It was only a personal excerpt. After watching, reading and researching the facts are clear, I don't question that. I was just trying to give some unique insight as a Florida resident.

Quote:

---

As a south Florida resident I must say that there are a large number of pythons cohabiting the everglades these days...

---

Quote:

---

In any case, we can only blame owner negligence. Fair? Not at all, but we're talking about an area where a lot of dog breeds have been banned because of human incapacity too.

---

Quote:

---

I adore my snakes. I know everyone here does as well but I know more than a few people here who own pythons because they're not hard to obtain in the area. To me they seem the sort who would just release them if they didn't have the means to care for them properly.

---

Quote:

---

I was definitely under the wrong impression if being released wasn't such a contributing factor in their population rise, though. I suppose I ought to check some more statistics on my own state before relying on just my own experience... Half of what you see, none of what you hear, right?

---

So you've seen quite a number of people releasing pythons or are these just more people who "seem the sort who would just release them if they didn't have the means to care for them properly"? Just trying to figure out the basis of your personal experience and corresponding deductions. I am glad you're starting to read actual facts and realizing not all presumptions are true(especially when based on the personal experiences of a single, casual observer), all the misinformation spreading like wildfire can be extremely frustrating to the advocates of reptile keeping.

I've never seen anyone release a snake, but I have seen them in the glades. I shouldn't have said 'these days'. My experience is outdated by over a year and I didn't expect such a rapid change - as I was living in north central FL when we had the cold snap that I now see seemed to obliterate the population.

Again, though I've never seen a release I used to volunteer with a private equine rescue in south FL, and there was a surprising number of negligent people/abandoned properties that also had pythons. I have a few acquaintances here who own pythons because there are a lot of inexpensive sources. I've helped rehome two, and the alternative was release. (I don't associate with said persons, and haven't since). Because of my experience and from what I'd seen and heard, I thought that had come to be a norm in this area. I didn't ever research it, and tried to do what I could on a personal level. (by the way, thanks to those who took the opportunity to shed some light on the situation here!) The last bit you quoted emphasizes that thanks.

Basically, I'm a naive twenty year old veterinary -go- ag student who has lived in Florida for fifteen years. I felt well versed because many of the people I've encountered down here know little to nothing about how our state functions as an ecosystem, so I tried to convey that. From several years worth of experience, my knowledge was that; A - I saw pythons in the Glades, B - People here are often irresponsible with animals.

With a minuscule amount of influence from a news source several years ago (A picture of a python with an alligator exploding out of it) it made sense that they were in the area because people released them.

Key word naive...

Not trying to be a malicious troll, really. :)

Ohlacey, its just hard for some of us to actually believe your legit. You being very new here, coming to this thread and commenting how you have, with the screen name " Ohlacey", just seems a bit coincidental.

Well she did make an intro thread. Maybe if we just give her a chance. I doubt she would have continued the conversation as politely as she did if she had ulterior motives..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heathers*bps

Ohlacey, its just hard for some of us to actually believe your legit. You being very new here, coming to this thread and commenting how you have, with the screen name " Ohlacey", just seems a bit coincidental.

---

What does her username have to do with it? The Lacey Act? That's like saying someone named Amber commenting on a police site has something to do with Amber Alert. :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpartaDog

What does her username have to do with it? The Lacey Act? That's like saying someone named Amber commenting on a police site has something to do with Amber Alert. :/

---

Ok, I guess its just me :confuzd:

What would a python ban supporter have to achieve by lurking a reptile forum anyway? That makes no sense.. At the very most it would be beneficial to us because it would educate them and fill in the gaps of misinformation that is running rampant out there. We do have all the facts, info, and supporting links proving all that has happened and been skewed over the last 5 years..

In fact, I think it would be very beneficial if we started going through all that old info and collecting it for a sticky. All the info from the hurricane and the destroyed facilities, to the 2 snakes that were released by HSUS officials (or was it PETA? I don't remember the details of that one) in south Carolina trying to further their agenda but someone came forward and turned them in.. To all the false "science" etc etc..

Everything that has been dug up over the last 5 years proving that's it's all been in the name of politics, money, and the HSUS "no pets at all" agenda.

Then we'd have a thread sticky dedicated to nothing but educating people on these things, and THIS amazing article right here is an excellent place to start.....

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163515

My name is Gillian Lacey. I usually don't shoot it around the web, but circumstances provided...

In any case, thanks again for the information. I really do appreciate it. All of the articles, and the video, were really informative. I definitely needed a bit of reforming for some ill conceived notions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ER12

Some experts now say no

(Reuters) - Reports that Burmese pythons are devouring almost entire populations of mammals in the Florida Everglades are premature, according to some exotic species experts and a co-author of a widely quoted study.

The idea of pythons annihilating the Everglades made headlines after a January 30 study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science said researches found severe declines in the population of small and mid-sized mammals.

The study presented data supporting its hypothesis that "Burmese pythons have severely reduced populations of several species of formerly common mammals" in the Everglades.

"Do I think we have an impending disaster? I don't think so," said Scott Hardin, exotic species coordinator for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.

"That study should have never made it to the light of day," said Florida herpetologist Shaw Heflin, known to many as host of National Geographic's "Python Hunters" show. "I don't see anything thus far to point to the fact that these pythons are causing serious harm."

The study compared sightings of animals along park roads before and after the year 2000, which is when the authors say pythons were recognized as being established in the park.

It found a 99.3 percent decrease in observed raccoons and a 98.9 percent decrease in observed opossums, the two most frequently encountered species, as well as decreased sightings of white-tailed deer, bobcats, rabbits and foxes. Sightings of rodents, coyotes and Florida panthers increased.

"The magnitude of these declines underscores the apparent incredible density of pythons in the Everglades National Park," the study concluded.

Everglades National Park spokeswoman Linda Friar said park biologists have "no hard science" demonstrating there has been a dramatic reduction in mammal populations.

Most of the 1.5 million-acre park is inaccessible wilderness.

The size of the python population is unknown with estimates ranging from a few thousand to tens of thousands, according to Friar. Many pythons are believed to have succumbed from the cold during the 2009 and 2010 winters, according to Heflin and Hardin.

Heflin criticizes the authors of the study for failing to fully investigate and dispose of other factors that could account for their observations, including a decade-long drought, cyclical population fluctuations, increased development and pollution.

"There's almost always some other factors going on and certainly in the Everglades, we know that hydrology and water levels plays a huge role in animal abundance," Hardin said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81N24120120224

---

So here's one of several major flaws in this ridiculously poorly conducted study. It is not a hard science study so they are going to be looking for correlations to prove their point. Unfortunately for the authors, one can't just pick and choose which data supports your theory and which doesn't. This is my favorite:

Quote:

---

Sightings of rodents, coyotes and Florida panthers increased.

---

This is the exact opposite of what would be expected if the python population was out of control. Rodents, the ideal prey for most sizes of python, should rapidly be decreasing in such a scenario. Likewise, as near or actual apex predators, Coyotes and Florida Panther populations should also be declining if Pythons were responsible for the decimation of most other prey species. There is no way possible for populations of other top predators to increase if pythons were single-handedly wiping out their food sources.

I read several parts of the report used to justify the recent nationwide banning the interstate transport of several snake species. If the "science" behind it wasn't so scary, it would laughable. One supportive reason for the ban was due to Global Warming... Washington state and New Hampshire will soon become sub tropical climates and capable of supporting wild Burmese pythons...seriously :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think if Washington and New Hampshire ever become sub-tropical or tropical, we are going to have much much bigger things to worry about than a few wild pythons minding their business in the woods.

It's interesting you mention those things since this new report I'm posting has come out... The planets temperature hasn't risen in 15 years and none of the "global warming" projections have been met.. It's actually cooled slightly...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...ing-again.html

"The supposed consensus on man-made global warming is facing an inconvenient challenge after the release of new temperature data showing the planet has not warmed for the past 15 years."

"Based on readings from more than 30,000 measuring stations, the data was issued last week without fanfare by the Met Office and the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit. It confirms that the rising trend in world temperatures ended in 1997."

"CO2 levels have continued to rise without interruption and, in 2007, the Met Office claimed that global warming was about to ‘come roaring back’. It said that between 2004 and 2014 there would be an overall increase of 0.3C. In 2009, it predicted that at least three of the years 2009 to 2014 would break the previous temperature record set in 1998. So far there is no sign of any of this happening. But yesterday a Met Office spokesman insisted its models were still valid."

"Dr Nicola Scafetta, of Duke University in North Carolina, is the author of several papers that argue the Met Office climate models show there should have been steady warming from 2000 until now’.

‘If temperatures continue to stay flat or start to cool again, the divergence between the models and recorded data will eventually become so great that the whole scientific community will question the current theories, he said.

He believes that as the Met Office model attaches much greater significance to CO2 than to the sun, it was bound to conclude that there would not be cooling. The real issue is whether the model itself is accurate, Dr Scafetta said. Meanwhile, one of America’s most eminent climate experts, Professor Judith Curry of the Georgia Institute of Technology, said she found the Met Office’s confident prediction of a negligible’ impact difficult to understand.

The responsible thing to do would be to accept the fact that the models may have severe shortcomings when it comes to the influence of the sun, said Professor Curry. As for the warming pause, she said that many scientists are not surprised’."

"She argued it is becoming evident that factors other than CO2 play an important role in rising or falling warmth, such as the 60-year water temperature cycles in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans.

They have insufficiently been appreciated in terms of global climate, said Prof Curry. When both oceans were cold in the past, such as from 1940 to 1970, the climate cooled. The Pacific cycle flipped back from warm to cold mode in 2008 and the Atlantic is also thought likely to flip in the next few years .

Pal Brekke, senior adviser at the Norwegian Space Centre, said some scientists found the importance of water cycles difficult to accept, because doing so means admitting that the oceans – not CO2 – caused much of the global warming between 1970 and 1997.

The same goes for the impact of the sun – which was highly active for much of the 20th Century.

‘Nature is about to carry out a very interesting experiment, he said. Ten or 15 years from now, we will be able to determine much better whether the warming of the late 20th Century really was caused by man-made CO2, or by natural variability.’

Meanwhile, since the end of last year, world temperatures have fallen by more than half a degree, as the cold La Nina effect has re-emerged in the South Pacific.

We’re now well into the second decade of the pause, said Benny Peiser, director of the Global Warming Policy Foundation. If we don’t see convincing evidence of global warming by 2015, it will start to become clear whether the models are bunk. And, if they are, the implications for some scientists could be very serious."

Global warming isnt real? Damn that al gore. :rage:

Interesting article I was forwarded the other day in relation to cyclic warming. It's horse related, but pertains to the subject matter.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223142634.htm

" As scientists continue developing climate change projection models, paleontologists studying an extreme short-term global warming event have discovered direct evidence about how mammals respond to rising temperatures. "

That is interesting but I noticed how they mentioned the thermal maximum of 1989, and then nothing about how the temperatures have dropped slightly since then. If this is true, and my article proves true over the next 15 years like those scientists are claiming it very well may, then horses, and other mammals, are going to get bigger due to the colder climate.

That would also mean the snakes they have banned and the others they want to ban don't stand a chance anywhere in the united states.

When I read the original post I didn't interpret that the original poster was saying she bought the flawed science, but that she was finding that many of the claims in it weren't true because other experts were finding that the first study jumped the gun.

Additionally I read the last part to say that the assumption that most of the Burms loose in the Everglades were due to being released by irresponsible owners was not true.

However; Gillian, I think one of the statements people were reacting to negatively/suspiciously was that you said that people you knew who owned pythons were the type to let them go once they grew too big for them to deal with.

I realize that people who own snakes can be as biased as those who don't by the exposure to all the propaganda flying around in the state of Florida, but making such assumptions about your neighbors really doesn't help the hobby.

As snake lovers we all should assume the best of people rather than the worst. Those people may make just fine snake owners. You can't pre-judge.

There are enough "snake police" out and about with all the banning going on. We don't need to do it to each other.

On the topic of climate/environmental changes; there are many things which could change the numbers of prey animals and other predators. The encroachment of humans into natural habitat is a big factor; not only in Florida, but in other places.

I live in Georgia, and in recent years there have been more Copperheads in rsidential areas and new Coyotes in parts that never used to see any at all.

It is very possible that as more people populate Florida the populations of all types of animals increase and decrease as everybody shifts around trying to adapt and find territory. This could possibly have nothing to do with Pythons at all.

Meaning being; there could be no correlation whatsoever and it could be that whatever pythons there are out there might have existed coincidentally alongside other changes in habitat.

It is odd how feral cats are never mentioned when talking about the decrease in population of raccoons, rabbits and other small animals. The feral cat population in Florida really is out of control, but you don't see that on the news much.

Welcome to "global dimming" - let the flim flam and chickanery commence. :P

@ Foschi - I noticed that the temperature drop was unincluded as well, but it seems unquestionable to me. In a state like Florida it's been pretty obvious... even now when, a decade ago, February days averaged in the high 80s to high 90s, we're sitting in the 70s. This past winter I had to break the ice off of thoroughbred water troughs every morning before sunrise. :O

@ Gift - In reference to my post, I agree. I'm so used to the world of horses where the only issues (and there are MANY) are absolutely caused by human hand. In the equine world, more oft than not dealing with racing TBs, people are dishonest and unaccountable. I guess I've been a bit wrongfully conditioned. Though my bests interests lay with the animals, I'm quick to assume guilt falls on the shoulders of those who keep them. A bit hypocritical, really... I'm thankful for the opportunity to step back and see a community of snake and reptile owners who stand by their word and their animals. :)

The feral cats here are terrible. Boca and the surrounding areas (Pompano Beach, Boynton Beach, Deerfield Beach) actually acknowledge several "registered feral communities". -_-'

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Global warming isnt real? Damn that al gore. :rage:

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Lol Oh it's real, but only on a natural level. It happens in cycles. CO2 levels. The temperature. It's all normal. The planet is doing what it does. I've always believed that humans (and cattle) have a much lower impact if any on these things considering a planet that is billions of years old that has done this many times before.

We as a species have been here such a short period of time yet we think we know everything. Everything we do know, which has been "proven" by our science, is continuously proven wrong and the "facts" are always changing.

That's hard for many people because humans hear one thing and that's that. They refuse to believe anything else but new evidence is always proving old facts wrong.

Just like the reptiles we keep. All the many reports that don't jive. They either don't make sense, or they completely contradict other reports coming out at the same time. It's like no one is doing any real research. I'm glad people come here and put it all out there for everyone to see and teach others. It helps open more eyes and make more people open minded about it.