Desert! To FAIL or not to FAil??????

Can't you get babies out of the Desert females. I love this morph, its in my top 5! But I want to know if they are going to produce or if they can.

From what ive heard it hasnt been done...yet lol.

Hasn't been done yet, but it's hard to prove a negative.. The terrible thing is that if they ARE infertile 100% of the time, we won't ever KNOW the truth.

It has been worked with alot longer then alot of people think. And it doesnt look good. I just dont understand why there is still a price tag like there is on desert females. They still hold around 1000 dollars which is nuts for an animal that cant breed

I was offered a nice 600g desert female, for a low price. I still declined. I wouldn't have a male either.
It's a shame as they make great combos.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

It has been worked with alot longer then alot of people think. And it doesnt look good. I just dont understand why there is still a price tag like there is on desert females. They still hold around 1000 dollars which is nuts for an animal that cant breed

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Boelens sell for way over that, and while they "can" breed, so far your average boelens in captivity won't successfully breed.

There is value in non-breedable animals for the sake of the enjoyment of keeping them.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Boelens sell for way over that, and while they "can" breed, so far your average boelens in captivity won't successfully breed.

There is value in non-breedable animals for the sake of the enjoyment of keeping them.

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They are my fav snake.
I think this is a unfair comparison though. There is a big difference between a snake that is infertile, and one that doesn't breed due to being in captivity. Boelens have very specific requirements which most keepers can't replicate.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Boelens sell for way over that, and while they "can" breed, so far your average boelens in captivity won't successfully breed.

There is value in non-breedable animals for the sake of the enjoyment of keeping them.

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There is a difference in a entire breed that cannot reproduce, and a color morph of a breed that generally has no problem reproducing. IMO the price of Deserts reflects folks trying to get money back on an investment in a essentially stalled/failed project. Lots of folks may disagree with that, but that is how I see it.

With a male, you will get at least one more generation, but females are hood ornaments as far as breeding goes, so you have to then decide how much is a pet worth. The rightful disparity in price is emerging, but I see females dropping way down. You can throw as many other genes in there as you like but it does not seem to help.

I was offered a desert female in a trade that was in my favor monetarily speaking, and as much as I love desert combos, I couldn't bring myself to take the offer due to what's going on with the females. Seems like deserts have been around long enough that if the females are going to breed, they would have by now.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

It has been worked with alot longer then alot of people think. And it doesnt look good. I just dont understand why there is still a price tag like there is on desert females. They still hold around 1000 dollars which is nuts for an animal that cant breed

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Most that I see listed are even above $1000. But are they selling is my question. People do buy pets for more than that all the time with no plans to ever breed them.

Maybe the flatline is a super desert?

I still think the flatline is a highly reduced killer clown combo personally but thats for another thread lol. As far as deserts go. They have been worked with for years. Pro exotics couldnt get females to reproduce and they worked with them like crazy. A male is worth his weight in gold in my oppinion. The combos using the desert is sick. Now trying to draw a parallel to the deserts and an entirely different species is like comparing a car to a truck. 2 totally different things

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I still think the flatline is a highly reduced killer clown combo personally but thats for another thread lol. As far as deserts go. They have been worked with for years. Pro exotics couldnt get females to reproduce and they worked with them like crazy. A male is worth his weight in gold in my oppinion. The combos using the desert is sick. Now trying to draw a parallel to the deserts and an entirely different species is like comparing a car to a truck. 2 totally different things

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I would expect males will soon be dropping quite a bit as well. When only 25% of the snakes the male produces are really worth anything I can't imagine people will continue to pay a high price for them. I know I personally wouldn't.

So even if you have a multi combo dessert female it still will not breed? Say 3 different genes and the desert?

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Originally Posted by snake lab

It has been worked with alot longer then alot of people think. And it doesnt look good. I just dont understand why there is still a price tag like there is on desert females. They still hold around 1000 dollars which is nuts for an animal that cant breed

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100% agree, its absurd.:O

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Originally Posted by oskyle1567

So even if you have a multi combo dessert female it still will not breed? Say 3 different genes and the desert?

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Short answer is no...this has been posted around in a few forums, and this post by Nick Mutton sums up what you're asking.

"Originally Posted by Nick Mutton View Post
Adding more genes wont help, I dont understand why this gets brought up so often.

All morphs are essentially defective genes, we may like the visual results but they are caused by broken genes that are not doing their job(s) properly.

If a gene is broken in such a way as to interfere with female fertility, how on earth is adding even more defective genes going to help? Thats just not a realistic possibility.

Morphs dont fix other morphs, its that simple.

The reality of breeding exclusively for morphs is that some have baggage. Genes do multiple and often seemingly unrelated jobs. So when a gene is not doing its color/pattern job correctly, its likely not doing any of its other jobs correctly either. While most often this may be benign, on occasion this disruption in the genes other responsibilities may have unfortunate consequences.

Just think about what all of us are actually doing. We are engaged in a what amounts to a race. A race to create animals with as many defective genes as possible!!!

Why then is anyone surprised when some of these animals have problems or issues?

I enjoy morphs myself and have pile so of them but the desert is not the first morph with possible issues and it certainly wont be the last.

Nick"

If the desert mutation makes females infertile, then it doesn't matter what you add to it, no.

As for whether I would have one...maybe. 25% of what you produce will be infertile, but it will still be alive, and a good pet. Basically, all of the females come 'pre-spayed'... ;)

That means deserts will be more rare than other morphs, which may mean their value will be higher. What you perceive as a flaw may actually wind up making them more valuable in the long run. If a morph were produced that, for unknown reasons, reproduced itself only 25% of the time instead of half the time when paired with a normal, would you say that it wasn't worth working with?
I doubt it.
This issue all depends on your perspective.

I would imagine eyes will be turning back now to the almost-forgotten desert ghost.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I would imagine eyes will be turning back now to the almost-forgotten desert ghost.

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Where does the desert ghost come in play...you're talking a dominant gene vs. a recessive, really no relation at all as to which is popular and why.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Short answer is no...this has been posted around in a few forums, and this post by Nick Mutton sums up what you're asking.

"Originally Posted by Nick Mutton View Post
Adding more genes wont help, I dont understand why this gets brought up so often.

All morphs are essentially defective genes, we may like the visual results but they are caused by broken genes that are not doing their job(s) properly.

If a gene is broken in such a way as to interfere with female fertility, how on earth is adding even more defective genes going to help? Thats just not a realistic possibility.

Morphs dont fix other morphs, its that simple.

The reality of breeding exclusively for morphs is that some have baggage. Genes do multiple and often seemingly unrelated jobs. So when a gene is not doing its color/pattern job correctly, its likely not doing any of its other jobs correctly either. While most often this may be benign, on occasion this disruption in the genes other responsibilities may have unfortunate consequences.

Just think about what all of us are actually doing. We are engaged in a what amounts to a race. A race to create animals with as many defective genes as possible!!!

Why then is anyone surprised when some of these animals have problems or issues?

I enjoy morphs myself and have pile so of them but the desert is not the first morph with possible issues and it certainly wont be the last.

Nick"

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This is not true. Morphs are mutations. Mutations can be defective but they can also be extremely beneficial... think X-Men ;). In all seriousness though, mutations are what drive evolution, can be beneficial or defective, and viewing them as a race to defectiveness is a poor way of viewing incredible morphs.

It is extremely unlikely but it is not impossible that adding a second mutation can cancel out the harmful effects of the first. Two ways that come to mind:

1) The Desert gene mutation creates a Stop codon which ends translation and causes infertility. Adding a second gene creates a mutation that changes the stop codon to a different, harmless codon that does not affect fertility.

2) Some amino acids have several different codons that code for them. The desert gene mutates a single nucleotide in females that creates a codon that causes infertility. The second mutation changes another nucleotide in the same codon to either create an original pre-desert amino acid or a new one that doesn't affect fertility...

Both of these scenarios are extremely unlikely but it is possible for another mutation to fix a mutation. I don't think this is the case for the desert morph and hadn't planned on jumping in but I couldn't let the morph = defectives comment go.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

mutations are what drive evolution, can be beneficial or defective

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While I'm in no position to argue genetics, I've always been under the impression that adaptation drives evolution, not mutation.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

While I'm in no position to argue genetics, I've always been under the impression that adaptation drives evolution, not mutation.

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Both will drive evolution and can go hand in hand. Without mutation, many know species wouldn't be alive today. Because of their ancestor's mutation, they were selected to survive just as they can be selected to die if that mutation wasn't advantageous.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Yes and no. Everything you see around you (every living species) is the result of millions upon millions of years of mutations. Mutations are completely random and have zero to do with the environment (barring radiation, etc). However, sometimes the mutation is beneficial in relation to its environment and allows an organism to produce more offspring to reproduction age than its competitors. The adaptation is pure chance but is happily taken advantage of. There are many mutations present that go unnoticed that are neither beneficial nor harmful.

A good example is the finches in the Galapagos island. If we take the finch with a thicker beak (good for cracking seeds) it was a mutation that originally gave it the thicker beak. It found a new food source (seeds) and was able to reproduce offspring with thicker beaks. The offspring with even thicker beaks were able to eat even more and thus grow quicker and reproduce earlier and more often and so on and so on, skewing the population towards thicker beaks. The thicker beak is now being positively selected for but it's initial introduction came from a mutation.

On re-reading, I apologize if I'm being too long winded. I occasionally instruct science and sometimes have trouble letting go when I get home.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

While I'm in no position to argue genetics, I've always been under the impression that adaptation drives evolution, not mutation.

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adaptations are caused by mutations and vice versa, evolution is one big game of random mutation.

I think the desert combos are gorgeous, and I hope to maybe work with the gene some day ... However, there are a couple of factors that make me nervous about the potential female infertility issue.

Foremost is the fact that, from the handful of accounts I've read, it seems that females tend to get eggbound and are at an increased risk of pregnancy complications rather than just being infertile. (If this is incorrect, I'd love to be corrected.) I could see this as a potential animal welfare issue if desert females fall into the hands of those who don't realize their reproductive problems, or don't realize the extent, and breed the female, putting her life at risk.

The other issue does center around that of combo desert females. I saw some 5-gene female for sale for a few grand, and desert was one of those genes. It occurred to me that if you breed a multi-gene male to any female, and hit on a 6-gene female who happens to carry desert, the desert gene would effectively "ruin" that female for your breeding program. That could get really upsetting if she was an otherwise stellar animal with that much genetic potential!

So, I dunno. There are some gorgeous desert morphs out there, and I most likely would use a desert combo male in my breeding program ... But the female issue is pretty problematic IMO.

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

I would expect males will soon be dropping quite a bit as well. When only 25% of the snakes the male produces are really worth anything I can't imagine people will continue to pay a high price for them. I know I personally wouldn't.

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I agree with John 100% males will soon be worth alot less, while the desert gene is not dead it will no longer be an investment animal in my IMHO. I'm definitely gonna get a male when they come down to a reasonable price though. Love the combos females will be pets til proven otherwise.

When did all of this talk come about? I just bought 20 females!:mad: JK...In all reality, I buy my animals to breed. I will be staying far away from the Desert project to be honest. Yes my animals are pets. On the other hand, it is not a smart investment on my part to buy another animal to feed that will not produce for me. Others will obviously have different feelings, to each his own. Not to mention, a lot of people are working with this gene and the animals (unless priced as normals) will end up sitting in their racks. Why should we be creating animals that will not be bought due to infertility issues and rendered useless by the ones who invest as a business aspect? After all, the business men are the ones who are going to spend the high dollar that is placed on these animals at this point. For those of you who say that these snakes are animals and should not be looked at like dollar signs...Forget you read my post. I do love my animals, they are not just dollar signs. This post was written for those of us who choose look at things in economical light.

I have yet to start my first breeding season, and I'm doing it for fun rather than money (due to the fact I didn't have much to start with, haha). When I first started looking into BPs I fell in love with the deserts on PE's pages, but now with everything that has come up the last year or so it makes it harder for me to justify getting another "pet" BP for so much money when there are plenty of morphs to invest in that are only going to have the normal BP issues at most (barring other complications of course). If/when the prices do go down I'd be happy to pick up a female as a display, but with the budget I have now I can't afford it for a hobby expense.

Theres a risk with any morph. The risk of market dropping etc. Now as we know so far the females cant reproduce. But what happens when someone figures out a combo that does work? If its such a dead morph in many peoples oppinions on here then why are breeders still working with them? Why are males still as high as they are? Why are females still as high as they are? Could mean a couple reasons. 1 it could be people working with them are trying to sell while they can, or 2 could mean people are close to figurin things out or already have. Either way when they do figure it out that morph will go through the roof and those working with them now will make a ton of money. I hear so often on this site how people arent in it for the money and just in it for pets. Thats great but having a hobby that pays for itself is alot better then a hobby with no return. For me i breed because i love the entire package. I love working with a number of different morphs, being able to put 2 things together and produce something totally different. But i could not afford to do it on the scale i am without making money off of it.

The speculation that someone has "figured it out" is all that really keeps this project afloat.

I do not see how, if someone has, that keeping it secret is helping them or anyone else. Unless keeping an air of mystery helps bolster up the price for the short term until the bottom truly falls out.

Just the way I see it.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

The speculation that someone has "figured it out" is all that really keeps this project afloat.

I do not see how, if someone has, that keeping it secret is helping them or anyone else. Unless keeping an air of mystery helps bolster up the price for the short term until the bottom truly falls out.

Just the way I see it.

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I agree. And i am only speculating. Im not saying someone has figured it out. I have a desert male hangin around just incase someone does lol

I think Desert females should be safe so long as their owners don't try to breed them. They should probably be sold with a certificate to that effect, or something. (I am one of those who thinks their infertility is a done deal at this point, and no amount of skewing temperatures or whatever is going to fix it).

The reason i think people will be revisiting the desert ghost is because the two morphs have a lot of similarities in appearance, so they may make combos that likewise are similar in appearance. The type of gene involved is less relevant to that. (Actually, using a recessive gene keeps the value higher).

can someone explain any further whats the deal with desert females? they won't lock up, ovulate, or what?

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Originally Posted by hypersomniacjoo

can someone explain any further whats the deal with desert females? they won't lock up, ovulate, or what?

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There are literally hundreds of pages between this board and others about the Desert females. I would get a cup of coffee and start to reading.

X1000000

i got some reading done...man people get annnnnnngry on those pages....hahaha!

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Originally Posted by hypersomniacjoo

i got some reading done...man people get annnnnnngry on those pages....hahaha!

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You prolly would be too if you have several thousand dollars invested in the project.

But some video by ralph and kevin
And kevin said himself that there's nothing wrong with the desert girls.

I'm getting one.
I can't not have one and not test for myself.
I also plan on getting a lady caramel for the same reason.

I'll also be making sure to wait till they are over 2 years old and more than (fingers crossed) 2000grams.

I know, wishful thinking but hey.
Gotta dream.

I would not pass up a desert.
Not for a great price and especially for a great example of the gene.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by sookieball

And kevin said himself that there's nothing wrong with the desert girls.

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Where did you see this??

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Originally Posted by sookieball

I would not pass up a desert.
Not for a great price and especially for a great example of the gene.

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:gj:

Look bottom line is that big breeders have been working with the deserts for years trying to get them to reproduce. No success. What makes you think youll be able to do it. Big waste of money

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Look bottom line is that big breeders have been working with the deserts for years trying to get them to reproduce. No success. What makes you think youll be able to do it. Big waste of money

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:groinkick :rainon: :tears:

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That means deserts will be more rare than other morphs, which may mean their value will be higher. What you perceive as a flaw may actually wind up making them more valuable in the long run.

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The males are breedable and the combos look cool so they will continue to be produced in high numbers. There are a lot of people that spent a lot of money on them and will continue to breed them to try and recoup some of that money.

So far there really haven't been a lot of adult desert females for sale. When that starts happening the price on deserts will really start to fall. If I had to guess I would say they will get down to the $100-150 range and then stay around there.

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Originally Posted by JayCee

The males are breedable and the combos look cool so they will continue to be produced in high numbers. There are a lot of people that spent a lot of money on them and will continue to breed them to try and recoup some of that money.

So far there really haven't been a lot of adult desert females for sale. When that starts happening the price on deserts will really start to fall. If I had to guess I would say they will get down to the $100-150 range and then stay around there.

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I don't think their price will drop that much and most likely it will only be the females. I can see the females in the $200-300 range.
The males should hold their value better because the only way you can get some of the insane Desert combos is with a male.

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Originally Posted by sookieball

But some video by ralph and kevin
And kevin said himself that there's nothing wrong with the desert girls.

I'm getting one.
I can't not have one and not test for myself.
I also plan on getting a lady caramel for the same reason.

I'll also be making sure to wait till they are over 2 years old and more than (fingers crossed) 2000grams.

I know, wishful thinking but hey.
Gotta dream.

I would not pass up a desert.
Not for a great price and especially for a great example of the gene.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Where did you see this??





:gj:

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I also would like to know where you saw this. Kevin brings up Desert females at about 7:30 on the second Lethal Combos video. He certainly does not say there's nothing wrong with them. He, like everyone else that has doubts, just wants to see a single video or pic proving females can successfully breed.

If there's a different video where there's more information known, please post the link or youtube title.

I'm amazed at how many people say infertile when speaking of the desert gene.
It's not a fertility issue at all as far as I understand.

More like failure to lay viable eggs. Slugs / egg binding etc from how I understand it.

I can see how that translates over to infertility though. Has there ever been a fertile egg removed from a desert female? (IE an egg bound fertile egg?) Or has it always been slugs?

I love deserts and the way they come out. If you are going to breed them. Just remember you may very well be sitting on the females. If you love the morph though I don't think it's a problem. I think I'd love to have one female just as a pet. They are gorgeous animals. Now the only thing that would have to come down is the price. I'd love a female Mojave desert. Or a female pin desert. But they'd have to be at the right price before I pick one up as a pet.


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If they can produce viable eggs but cannot lay them it might be possible to "deliver" the eggs by C-section like they do for bulldogs.

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Originally Posted by Theodore Tibbitts

If they can produce viable eggs but cannot lay them it might be possible to "deliver" the eggs by C-section like they do for bulldogs.

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How many C-sections can you give a ball python before it becomes unbreedable???

I'm sure Vet bills would shoot the price up on an already fail morph

The desert gene is very beautiful and has so much potential. I love the Tiger morph that can be made. That being said, ProExotics has been working with them for years as well as Nerd and BHB. No success so far. I am sure that eventually someone will figure out what is going on and be able to produce viable eggs. I recently saw an adult Desert female for only $400, it killed me to walk away.

Not sure, I'm not a vet. I'm just saying other artificially selected animals have had similiar problems, and solutions have been found. Unless the females cannot be fertilized at all it seems likely that some procedure could be developed eventually which allows breeding. Whether such would be "worth it" is another question.

So combos with deserts are pointless wouldn't y'all agree?