What is the best example of....

I have got to thinking and would like some others input. I try to get the best examples of the morphs and combos in my collection, but I see a ton of what I consider poor examples of a given morph or combo on the market (browned out Pastels or Bees, Enchis with lots of spots, etc...).

Seems a lot of other high-end bred animal breeders would try better to hold to a standard for the particular morph/breed and not breed the poor examples. Seems in the BP market, folks will breed whatever in hopes of turning a buck.

I understand the "they are beautiful in their own way" side, but that really does not cut it in other markets. There are and probably should be standards of excellence. I believe these exist in the BP world, but often are not really made clear. I am not talking about Citrus Pastel is better than Lemon is better than whatever, I am taking about the best examples within that particular morph or line.

SO.... if you read all that and are with me, please post up a pic or several from your collection (or that you have permission to post) that you think exemplifies a particular morph or combo, and WHY you think that. Of course, opinions will rule here, but it would be nice to see of there is some consensus on certain things. I think it could be a very educational exercise.

I will start with the Fire Yellow Belly I have coming from Mark Petros:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...488607x455.jpg

This guy has what I believe this combo should give. The genes work well together to highlight each other as manifested in the bright color and pretty extreme blushing (he is RINGED with it). The Fire has also contributed a very clean pattern and the Fire head stamp. I contend this is a VERY high quality example of this morph combo, and I have seen others that while they contain the genes, do not appear to me to be the best mix.

The other impetus for this was I always see people asking if a BP barely makes the cut to be a particular morph since they are trying to get a good deal on it. I am generally of the opinion that if it is not clearly a good example of that morph or combo, you should likely not be breeding it.

There are exceptions like Calico and Pied that can throw exceptional animals despite the perceived quality, but for the most part quality in = quality out.

Okay, I'll bite. I have a few that I think are great examples of a particular morph.

To start, I have this pastel female that I got from Garrick DeMeyer. She is super bright yellow with some nice blushing. This is what I look for in pastels and this is what I think makes a great pastel. When your jaw drops every time you look at it then you know you've got a good one. :P
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_2571.jpg

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_2563.jpg

Then I have a pastel yellow belly that is outstanding. He is super bright yellow at 4-5 years old with some great flames and blushing.
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_2537.jpg

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_2540.jpg

I also have a bee that is a little better than average (can you tell I like pastels :rolleyes:). She is very bright yellow, but she does have some spotting.
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_4224.jpg

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_4252.jpg

My male spotnose represents his morph really well too. His black is jet black, he has a head marking and a light coloration that just keeps getting better. He wasn't this nice when I got him. :D
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...2/IMG_4316.jpg

Both of my spiders are great examples too. My female is a high white with no spotting and my male is very golden with no spotting. The spotting is key for me with spiders, the amount of white and over all color isn't as important.
female:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...n/IMG_2224.jpg

male:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...3/IMG_2215.jpg

The rest of mine are about average or a little better than average. I've been trying to collect high quality breeding stock but I haven't been 100% successful. :P

I am sooo picky about the Morphs I had to my Collection…I only want the very best examples for breeders!

Some people just buy morphs for all the wrong reasons…Very little research, cheap prices, just rushing to get something to breed and make money…

I was lucky enough to work for Brian Sharp Reptiles when I was starting my Ball Collection…I got first pick of the clutch from everything I got from him…I have also dealt with a lot of other local breeders and 90% of the animals I have purchased were handpicked by me.…I also like to be able to see the parents in person that helps decide what babies to pick!

I do the same thing with stuff I produce…I keep the best of the best for myself!!!

On the flipside what I think may look good may not to someone else…For Example…I love busy patterned dotted up Enchis…I don’t really like reduced animals…The busier the better for me!!!

So it seems you at least agree you have standards for your morphs, so please share some. The point here is to make a bit of a library of opinions.

As for the Enchi, then the question becomes what ARE the benchmarks for a a Enchi and what are features that can be left up to personal pref.

For example, I have a Siberian Husky and any eye color or combination of eye color is acceptable by breed standard, but a Malamute would be considered at fault for having blue eyes. Other than average size, they are basically the same dog.

My Fire - He has incredible colors, faded head, and a neat pattern.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...9/DSC00245.jpg
My Enchi - To me he has the perfect color for an enchi and has a nice reduced pattern.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...9/DSC00356.jpg
My Pastel Lesser - He has ridiculous blushing and very bright high contrasting colors.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...lime09/5-1.jpg
My Pied - He has patches of color instead of it being clumped together, which I like but there are so many variations of pieds that people like.
Also I like mid to high white pieds over low white ones. He also has a nice neck stripe!
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...lime09/4-1.jpg

I basically listed all of my male ball pythons! LOL.

I honestly can't agree that their are truely standards in the bp breeding world. At least nothing like the dog breeding world.

It is rare to have dog breeders attempting to create new morphs constantly. And when they do they are considered to be mutts for 10+ years before someone decides to accept it.

In the BP world breeders strive to create new and unique morphs. Something out of the ordinary. Something everyone will want to have. By doing this it doesn't create the same pure line breeding that you see with dogs.

So in this world Uniqueness is key, I don't see how you can not agree that even uniqueness within a certain morph cant be desired? When the final goal of the BP world is to create such uniqueness.

I can agree that in certain morphs like the pastel that one that browns out is less desirable. But with any other morph I just don't see it. Whether they are brighter, duller, busier, reduced, high or low colored, blushing, contrast. etc. That these traits make them each unique.

However I do not breed, this is just how I see it.

I'll agree with jdoug. I know there are certain "standards" of some morphs but theres also a lot of opinions on which type looks better. I would be just as happy with a pastel who may have a little more brown but crazy blushing, but that isnt consindered a good example of a pastel.

It is true that standards in the BP world are entirely subjective for the most part. I tend to like dark and busy, sometimes I like light and reduced. Sometimes I like holes, spots and dots while on other things I like clean and solid. I'll contribute a few pictures of morphs that I bought because I particularly liked those examples. You'll have to excuse my poor picture taking...

Red Axanthic from Oz of Ozzy Boids
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...J/100_0141.jpg

Pastel Butter from Jon Courtney of Cold Blooded Addiction
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...J/100_0140.jpg

Genetic Stripe from Ian of Outback Reptiles
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...J/100_0118.jpg

I see that side as well, but to make another analogy, I have been perfectly happy with many a mutt but they are not good examples of a morph or breed.

The bigger point here is for folks to post up what THEY consider to be good examples. I would not be surprised for a consensus on some morphs to emerge with enough data. Also it will make kind of a one stop shop to answer new folks questions about what makes a good morph.

Of course, there are differing opinions. But there should be aspects, as I said before, that are at least personal "standards" and other aspects that are up for debate. The more folks that make it apparent as to what they are looking for, the data will begin to show trends.

So, I guess I am asking what YOU look for in these morphs (with examples) and then we can debate whether or not we agree. I do not agree that zero consensus can be reached on some of the morphs.

A few I think are exceptional examples

This hold back female pastel lesser is my ideal of this combo...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/PICT0077.jpg

Our wild caught line of yellowbelly's is my ideal yellowbelly, dark and sexy
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1463.jpg

Bright and blushed like mad, I kind of dig this Butter female...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...tterfemale.jpg

My ideal lesser has no spots...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/IMG_9532.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pigfat

I'll agree with jdoug. I know there are certain "standards" of some morphs but theres also a lot of opinions on which type looks better. I would be just as happy with a pastel who may have a little more brown but crazy blushing, but that isnt consindered a good example of a pastel.

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I kindof agree with jdoug, but there are definitely some things that can make a certain morph more sought after than others. Blushing in pastels is something that some people go for. Others will go for high vibrant yellows and contrast. Some people will settle on not the brightest pastels, but perhaps the pattern is intriguing to them!

Spiders are a similar story. Some people like HIGH white sides! I personally do not. I prefer medium sides. Low white sides make the spider look like a woma to me, and I personally do not like womas =p. Some spiders are also REALLY dark brown where some others are high in gold. Some people like dark morphs, and some people like light morphs =p.

However, even with both examples given, as well as taking into account other people's personal opinions, I have to say that there is definitely some standard when determining the quality of morphs..

When I describe a pastel to someone, I just say it's a yellow snake that has blushing in the dark black patterns... So when you go to look for a pastel that exemplifies this, you will look for the brightest yellow pastel you can get which will most likely be the first thing that stands out to someone. THEN you look for the blushing in the pattern which a trained eye will probably look for..

When I describe a spider, I say it's a brown snake with a crazy reduced pattern! It's got a thin dorsal stripe that can sometimes be curvy, and very thin and sharp black patterning will descend from that stripe to its belly! It also has white scales from the side to the belly, and a distinguishable head pattern!

The same logic can be passed down to the combos... When describing a bumblebee, you say it has a spider pattern with pastel colors. That is, a YELLOW snake with a reduced pattern, white sides, and a distinguished head pattern! When you look for a bumblebee, you want a CLEAN bee.. the blushing will come after since you want that color to grab people's attention. I've seen extremely yellow bees with little to no white sides, but it had that obvious spider pattern and a great amount of yellow, which is the first thing you spot when you see that morph that you're looking for..

I agree, I always try to look for quality. Even when it costs a little more. A lot of people I have come across locally just don't get it. They wanna pay the same for high quality as they would for poor quality.

Here's a few of mine...

My pewter is bright and he has great pattern (sorry he's in shed in pic
http://img.tapatalk.com/43a684c0-2786-ceab.jpg

Spider female #1, she has an amazing neon yellow dorsal stripe and high white sides.
http://img.tapatalk.com/43a684c0-2710-e519.jpg

Spider female #2, black back, her black is also more if a chocolate color than black...
http://img.tapatalk.com/43a684c0-2754-4f22.jpg

Mojave female, love how her yellow stayed on her dorsal and how she kept all her color. She is breeding my pewter now...
http://img.tapatalk.com/43a684c0-26ce-49f0.jpg

My pastel lesser is smokin with a great reduced pattern. She is my favorite.

http://img.tapatalk.com/43a684c0-24b6-7898.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

Personally, I think my juvi albino girl is pretty nice...but I may be wrong.
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i393/pigfat7/a3.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i393/pigfat7/a1.jpg

And most people will probably agree that my pastel is not the best example of a "great" pastel...
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i393/pigfat7/4.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i393/pigfat7/3.jpg

Who sets the standards? These morphs ate pretty much works of art. Whag one likes another wont. So it basically comes down to interpretation. Like jon said he likes a busy pattern and thats his standard over reduced. But others may like reduced so whos right by said standard? The breeders that care about what they are doing produce a certain look. This is their finger print on the industry that represents them and their animals so again i ask who sets the standard?

The group sets standards. Are you telling me there are zero standards?

Those are some sweet snakes! Here's my ideal Pastel YB

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...04-17_6932.jpg

And this guy has everything I wanted in a firefly nice big, bright and clean pattern.

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...n/IMG_0690.jpg

The yellow is INSANE on that Pastel YB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jinx667

The group sets standards. Are you telling me there are zero standards?

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The only standards are between the breeder and the buyer. People who consistently produce beautiful animals and have produced beautiful animals are known for that, but plenty of people make sales on what would universally be considered "less than desirable" animals.

Even with something so basic as pastels...NERD, Graziani, Ruppell, Bell, etc...all different animals, but what do you look for? The common sense answer is bright, vibrant yellow. However, plenty of people will forgive a bit of browning out for a crazy pattern, intense blacks or blushing, or something else.

My opinion on the matter is that balls haven't been selectively bred for long enough(or with enough care) to be able to sit down, discuss, and validate what sets "the standard". And with what really amounts to a 15 year breeding craze, and people breeding what they like, or just breeding with no regard for desirable traits, a standard is impossible to set. If you want a place to look for a nice example of each morph, there's World of Ball Pythons, but anything you'll find to hold to those examples will likely vary greatly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jinx667

The group sets standards. Are you telling me there are zero standards?

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So if in said group, 50% like a high white pied and 50% like a low white pied then how do you decide what the standard should be and where the bar should be set for a pied? If you want to get technical the first animal produced of each morph should be the standard of that morph. But i dont think you will ever find the standard animal of esch morph. Its all on prefrence and interpretation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

The only standards are between the breeder and the buyer. People who consistently produce beautiful animals and have produced beautiful animals are known for that, but plenty of people make sales on what would universally be considered "less than desirable" animals.

Even with something so basic as pastels...NERD, Graziani, Ruppell, Bell, etc...all different animals, but what do you look for? The common sense answer is bright, vibrant yellow. However, plenty of people will forgive a bit of browning out for a crazy pattern, intense blacks or blushing, or something else.

My opinion on the matter is that balls haven't been selectively bred for long enough(or with enough care) to be able to sit down, discuss, and validate what sets "the standard". And with what really amounts to a 15 year breeding craze, and people breeding what they like, or just breeding with no regard for desirable traits, a standard is impossible to set. If you want a place to look for a nice example of each morph, there's World of Ball Pythons, but anything you'll find to hold to those examples will likely vary greatly.

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I agree with this. Short of culling, it is hard for a breeder to control the line once the less than ideal ones sell. And, I do not condone culling.

As far as WOBP, there are good examples there, and they are a good start. I wanted to see what the group here had to say about various morphs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jinx667

The yellow is INSANE on that Pastel YB

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Thanks! Shes getting better and better with each shed. I got her from Justin Smith-Crimson Constrictors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Who sets the standards? These morphs ate pretty much works of art. Whag one likes another wont. So it basically comes down to interpretation. Like jon said he likes a busy pattern and thats his standard over reduced. But others may like reduced so whos right by said standard? The breeders that care about what they are doing produce a certain look. This is their finger print on the industry that represents them and their animals so again i ask who sets the standard?

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There is definitely a standard. That's why some people would rather spend more money on a better example of a morph than one that isn't. If someone rather get a blushed out pastel than a bright yellow pastel with jet black blacks, then that's their opinion. That's they're personal choice. They will appeal to a much smaller group of individuals who prefer a blushed out pastel over a bright yellow one. I'm willing to bet that if you posted a poll of whether people liked bright yellows or insane blushing, the majority will vote for bright yellows. I see more people say they like high white sides on a spider than low white.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snake lab

So if in said group, 50% like a high white pied and 50% like a low white pied then how do you decide what the standard should be and where the bar should be set for a pied? If you want to get technical the first animal produced of each morph should be the standard of that morph. But i dont think you will ever find the standard animal of esch morph. Its all on prefrence and interpretation

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I agree level of white in a Pied or a Calico is personal preference. It is fine if you do not believe there are any standards to adhere to, we all have out opinions on the matter. I just think when it comes to some morphs, there are fairly universally undesirable traits, and when those animals are used to breed they pass that on to combos.

As for the first one produced being the standard, I do not prescribe to that. Line breeding has been shown to improve morphs over time. That improvement is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Either way I thin this is good conversation to see where folks stand on the matter.

Your point that all standards are not standards has been clearly made.

I would still like to see some examples of what people believe to be superior examples of a morph, preferably with an explanation as to why.

Oh please guys dont get me wrong. Im just wondering who sets the standard. For example what single pastel are we supposed to hold up as the example the pastel? And what mojave? And on and on. If every albino doesnt look like the first ever found then are they not up to standards?

Here are a couple snakes that I consider to be great examples of their morph.

This is my male Black Pastel:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...3/100_4574.jpg
He has the classic squiggle marks and great color!


Here is my male Spinner:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...abaldec142.jpg
Love the lines going down the side with the white and salmon colors.

This is my holdback female Pastel:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...hevadec142.jpg
Love the amount of yellow and lots of blushing. She is getting better with each shed.

thanks for looking,

Dave

I am not saying there is ONE snake that is THE example. I just think that if the the question is asked and people answer honestly, over time a data set can be collected and consensus on a series of traits may be able to be ascertained. For many the data may wind up not statistically significant, but I really do not think that would be the case for all morphs.

That is also why I asked for folks to explain why they think the morph is a good example (or a bad one). Just putting up a pic is cool but really does not verbalize what one is looking for.

You keep asking who sets the standard, and my answer is that we all as a group set them.

I applaud what your trying to do. And sounds great on paper but nomatter how much data you collect you will never get a consensus on anything lol. Its not like we are a bunch of tire makers all making round black tires. But good luck. I do have to say that ak has a smokin pastel yb. Smokin

Interesting stuff. I'd really, personally like to see a set of ideals put into place.

I mean, even among dog breeding clubs, there are different standards, so it could be no different. For one club to say that (completely made-up) a rainbow ball python should have indigo, and for the other club to say no indigo, just blue and purple. It wouldn't be un-like any other club, is what I'm trying to say. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by h00blah

There is definitely a standard. That's why some people would rather spend more money on a better example of a morph than one that isn't. If someone rather get a blushed out pastel than a bright yellow pastel with jet black blacks, then that's their opinion. That's they're personal choice. They will appeal to a much smaller group of individuals who prefer a blushed out pastel over a bright yellow one. I'm willing to bet that if you posted a poll of whether people liked bright yellows or insane blushing, the majority will vote for bright yellows. I see more people say they like high white sides on a spider than low white.

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For this.
I will use a mouse breeding example.
Variegated mice should be white, with small black 'pepper' like specks all over their entire body.

A poor example of the show standard, is a mouse which is mostly black, and will often have a white stripe on it's head.

I like the black ones with the white stripes! And I'm free to like them, and breed them, and sell them, etc. BUT, I would never show them because for every mouse club's standards, they would not do well.


It doesn't prevent people from breeding, owning, selling, and liking the non-standard version of the gene. It just sets a standard for THAT specific club. :)


Clubs pop up all the time for every fancy there is.
And even for each category (like normal BPs) there would be several sub categories for showing and competing (reduced pattern, medium pattern, busy pattern)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I applaud what your trying to do. And sounds great on paper but nomatter how much data you collect you will never get a consensus on anything lol. Its not like we are a bunch of tire makers all making round black tires. But good luck. I do have to say that ak has a smokin pastel yb. Smokin

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The only way this can be proven is if people post pictures of their BPs and have people vote =]. Or what could be really fun is if at a reptile expo, they can have snakes on display and people vote which one is nicer ^_^

I guarantee that it won't be a 50% vote LOL. Some traits are more sought after than others which answers a lot of questions. When people ask "what should i look for when buying a pastel?" You can reply "most people prefer X... but I prefer X..." but at least you can say most people will agree on a certain trait of a named morph...

Gosh sorry I keep posting on top of myself. . .

I just don't think people realize how UN-official clubs truly are. :P
Anyone can start a club, and if people don't like it, and don't like the standards, then they won't join it, and they won't show in it! It's as simple as that. The standards would reflect what people generally consider to be attractive on the snakes that are categorized.

A normal BP would not be shown as a 'Light coloured python with tan spots', even if the gene is capable of producing that morph. A normal would be shown as a 'Brown python with dark brown or black markings evenly spread over the body in a pattern which pleases the eye' (I'm sure it would be more specific than this, I'm just using this as a very crude example, so don't criticize the descriptions! :P) or something like that.



Even within clubs, different judges will say that one animal is better than the next. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I like the black ones with the white stripes! And I'm free to like them, and breed them, and sell them, etc. BUT, I would never show them because for every mouse club's standards, they would not do well.


It doesn't prevent people from breeding, owning, selling, and liking the non-standard version of the gene. It just sets a standard for THAT specific club. :)

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AGREED! This is what I'm saying! haha :P

I like some busy patterned and some reduced. For pinstripes, I prefer busy pattern! I prefer structure and PATTERN! Not random lines everywhere with the coloration of a pin so that you can tell it's a pin haha. I like butters/lessers with a uniform pattern and great coloration. The first thing I will notice is the pattern though! I believe most people will want the best color they can find first! At least that's how I hear people describe good looking butters/lessers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saber2th

Here are a couple snakes that I consider to be great examples of their morph.

This is my male Black Pastel:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...3/100_4574.jpg
He has the classic squiggle marks and great color!

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That Black Pastel is awesome. Very dark. I need a female het Hypo like that....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by h00blah

The only way this can be proven is if people post pictures of their BPs and have people vote =]. Or what could be really fun is if at a reptile expo, they can have snakes on display and people vote which one is nicer ^_^

I guarantee that it won't be a 50% vote LOL. Some traits are more sought after than others which answers a lot of questions. When people ask "what should i look for when buying a pastel?" You can reply "most people prefer X... but I prefer X..." but at least you can say most people will agree on a certain trait of a named morph...

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The voting this is probably way out of the question. Like I said in one of my other posts, the standards are completely up to the club itself, and anyone can start their own club and write their own standards.

(I AM SPEAKING AS SOMEONE WHO OWNS AND OPERATES A MOUSE BREEDING CLUB AND JUDGES SHOWS. ;) )


BUT. Any good club worth a penny would know that the standards need to meet a general idea of appealing. If my club decides that normals should be 'tan' and not 'brown' then nobody is going to be interested in showing, because that is just not the image of a normal that people want to see, and want to look up to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by h00blah

AGREED! This is what I'm saying! haha :P

I like some busy patterned and some reduced. For pinstripes, I prefer busy pattern! I prefer structure and PATTERN! Not random lines everywhere with the coloration of a pin so that you can tell it's a pin haha. .

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So for pins, (coming from someone who really knows nothing about BP genetics, so excuse some of my mistakes) the standards would first be colour a pin should be entered as a recognized colour, then it can be entered as a recognized patern. Say one pattern is 'one stripe' and another pattern is 'busy stripes' and each is judged separately from the other.

Pins are a good example. I like a unbroken stripe on my Pins and Pin combos.

Here is my Jigsaw girl:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...WHISKEYWM1.jpg

I like that her stripe is not broken (but could be more perfect), and there is a decided color difference with the gold of the stripe and the brown/white on the sides.

So for pins, hypothetically there could be a standard that says the stripe should go un-broken, and be as contrasting as possible to the standardized base colour pattern.


And there should be another standard for 'broken stripe pins' where the stripe should be clean and broken into as even sections as possible, while remaining appealing to the eye, and un-cluttered. Stripes to contrast the base pattern strongly.



:confuzd:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

So for pins, hypothetically there could be a standard that says the stripe should go un-broken, and be as contrasting as possible to the standardized base colour pattern.


And there should be another standard for 'broken stripe pins' where the stripe should be clean and broken into as even sections as possible, while remaining appealing to the eye, and un-cluttered. Stripes to contrast the base pattern strongly.



:confuzd:

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haha I believe a standard example of a GOOD pinstripe is one with 2 unbroken stripes down their backs, and a nice row of stripes down the sides with the hint of speckling within the would-be "alien heads". When I think of pinstripe colors, I think of a dark brown almost milk chocolate color. The reduced pins will have few side stripes and speckling, and will sometimes STILL have 2 full stripes! Now THOSE are sexy pins, even though I'm personally not into reduced patterned pins =p. Jinx has an AMAZING jigsaw <3 :bow:

Thanks for specifying, like I said I haven't got a clue about BP morphs, I'm just trying to help from the standpoint of someone who has done this all before, just with another species! :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Red Axanthic from Oz of Ozzy Boids
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...J/100_0141.jpg

Pastel Butter from Jon Courtney of Cold Blooded Addiction
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...J/100_0140.jpg

Genetic Stripe from Ian of Outback Reptiles
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...J/100_0118.jpg

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Back to your question as to why I like these particular examples. The red axanthic has great coloration, a nice blushed black back, nice uniform doughnut pattern 1/2-2/3 of the way down with the doughnuts then mashing up into each other, nice smudging within the doughnuts(not too much), and though you can't see it, a crazy belly pattern. The broken pattern at the base of the head is also trademark of het reds/red axanthics.

As for the pastel butter, the white combined with flash really washed him out, but this guy is really yellow. His head is very faded, and the blushing is pretty intense. I like how the pattern bleeds into the white 2/3 the way down. I also love the irregular, mashed up alien heads. The more I look at BEL stuff, the less I like uniformity of pattern.

And with the g-stripe, it's pretty obvious. Full bright stripe, nicely balanced on the spine, dark outline of the stripe, and super reduced sides.

Even with just these 3 examples, I'm all over the map. I like the uniformity and perfectness of the g-stripe as much as I like the irregularity of the pastel butter.

I am more concerned that the center stripe is not broken in a Pin. If you get both a unbroken center and unbroken sides, then even better.

Hey jinx. That jig is killer. Love it

I think it is fun to see what other people see as their ideals. Sometimes it helps me see beauty where I didn't appreciate it before. There have been some amazing morphs discovered by breeders seeing something beautiful where others saw nothing. If we set standards, I'm afraid it could discourage that kind of independent creativity, and make us blind to new ways of appreciating these morphs.

So, with that disclaimer, I'll share some of my favorites. My ideals always seem to have clean or reduced patterns and bright colors.

This Super Pastel Male (from Garrick DeMeyer) seemed so perfect to me, that I bought him even though I'd been looking for a female. I love his reduced pattern, his blushing and his clean yellow color.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/IMG_1851.jpg

This Matrix Blonde Pastel female, unrelated to the male above, is the nicest one I produced for her clean bright color. While there are many different qualities to like or not like about a pastel, I think the most important one is that clean yellow color.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/IMG_3784.jpg

This Hypo Male is one of my favorite snakes with his cool reduced pattern and super clean color. He is my ideal hypo.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...IMG_3767-2.jpg

I love all the colors of a nice calico. Thick bright gold/orange highlights the chocolate brown, which contrasts with the brilliant white of a nice specimen. This female from Dan Wolfe started my love affair with this morph.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/IMG_3882.jpg

This not great pic of my lemon pastel lesser platinum was taken when she was older, but you can still appreciate her color and pattern. I like the broad blushed bands in her pattern.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/IMG_3769.jpg
For pure pastel lesser platinum beauty, though, I like this citrus pastel lesser with her classic pattern and really clear yellow.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...IMG_2219-1.jpg

I'm going to finish with a departure from the norm for me. I'm usually not partial to busy patterns, but this citrus pastel yellowbelly (from Amir) is too bright to believe and displays the best traits of both morphs making her my ideal.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...IMG_1773-1.jpg

i think variety is what makes bp's so attractive.
If u set standards then everyone will be striving for that standard and some where down the line everyones bp's will start looking the same.
I for one look for uniqueness in my bp's i dont want a bp that looks like everyone elses.

For example i personally have never seen a black pastel that i liked,so i have never considered purchasing any,been to quiet a few shows and in my opinion(my opinion)i have never seen a very unique looking black pastel,even the mojarity of photos on this site most black pastels look the same(most seem dark as babies and just regular as they grow.

And another thing what would the standard be set upon,Adult versions or juvi versions,because from what i see most juvies(that catch peoples eye)do not look the same when they get older(some look better and some look worse)and i dont think alot of us cant predict how most juvies will turn out as they grow,we hope they get better but we cant be 100% sure they will.

just my 2 cents:D

I think there is a misconception here that having a morph standard does not allow for variety in the morph. That is just not true. It would just establish MINIMUM guidelines for a good example of the morph.

In the end this could actually help breeders better cater to what the customer base is looking for. In addition, we already see that exceptional examples command higher prices and if you consistently put out exceptional examples, well you get where that is going.

To me, an excellent Woma has a bright, rich, light orange/tan color overall, with bold stripey markings and minimal dots.

(I do think this is an excellent woma):

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...092711-6sm.jpg

His only 'flaws' are a dot by his tail, and one small tiny freckle. I look for color more than pattern, as I think that finding excellent color in womas is less common than finding decent patterns.

On the other hand, when looking at 'excellent examples of the morph', would animals carrying additional genes be excluded? This woma is het for orange ghost, and while hets don't have definitive markers, there are trends, and the orange ghost gene COULD be influencing color, pattern, or both.

I think that some hets definitely improve the overall appearance of a given morph.

For carriers/hets

A Mouse which is blue, can carry yellow. This sometimes causes the blue to be dull, but not always. This mouse is held to the standards of the other blue mice. It should be dark, even, and richly coloured.

;)

My collection has built very slowly, because I look for MY standard of the best example there is of any given morph. It took me 2 years to find my lesser and my cinnamon, since my ideal enchi was stolen from the seller before she shipped to me, I'm still searching for anything that comes close to her. My POG is amazing, as are my two fires.

Here are just a few examples of MY personal standard for morphs in my collection:

Pastels:

DeMeyer Pastel

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...l/IMG_6980.jpg

Lemon Pastel - produced here

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...s/DSC_0160.jpg

Enchi - the one I'm trying to find one that compares

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...i/IMG_5229.jpg

Lesser male - produced by John Vandegrift

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/Paxton4.jpg

Lesser female - produced by Louis Kirkland

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_6191.jpg

Cinnamon male - produced by Tim Bailey

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ny122209_1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...n/DSC_0151.jpg

Fire male - produced by Justin Kobylka

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...s/IMG_6900.jpg

Fire female - produced by ? Not sure - purchased at Repticon Myrtle Beach
Need to get more pictures of my only MOUSER in my collection! LOL She's much more yellow now:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_6870.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_6873.jpg

POG - produced by Deborah Stewart on a breeding loan with my het hypo female - thanks again Deb! Need new pictures of this handsome boy!

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...1/IMG_6765.jpg

Spider - produced by Ed Duepree - perfect head marking for me!

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...o/IMG_6005.jpg

Clown - almost perfect -would prefer completely reduced - produced here from het to het breeding.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_6861.jpg

And don't forget the normals that you work with - they really will impact the quality of your offspring. Take the same care when chosing them as you do your morphs.

This girl with my cinnamon produced black back cinnies and black back normals

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...PretJune17.jpg

Here she is as an itty bitty baby! LOL

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...b/PretzelA.jpg