Need help ASAP!

So here's the deal. I'll try and keep it short so please read because I truly Need help. I've gotta baby male lavender BP. He started showing signs of a RI quite some time ago, and I quicky took him to my local vet that also does herps. She did not do a culture, and perscribed oral baytril. I bumped my heat up, perfected my husbandry, and administered the baytril in 2 day intervals for 7 applications. This resulted in no improvement at all. So back to the vet, and this time I got baytril injections, and administered the same dose same 2 day intervals for a total of 7 injections. I was able to get great penetration and administered all in the upper 1/3 "shoulder" area, and alternated sides each time. His final injection was Sunday, and his condition seems to be worsening. He has large amounts of mucus coming from his mouth, and has been sitting outside his warm hide with his head straight up I the air, and open mouth breathing. My husbandry is spot on, and tank is spotless( I have to wipe mucus off the glass daily). 95 warm side hide( elevated because I was instructed to do so) and 81 cool side hide. Both are identicle. UTH&ChE on dimmers with electronic thermos, and humidity is 53%. My question is he too far into this RI to be cured? Or is it the fact my vet did culture the bacteria and give me correct persriptions? Money is not an object, but does he still have a chance if I get him cultured and new perscription tomorrow? I really need some detailed responses. Thanks!

A culture really needs to be done.
It is only too late if he gives up.

Well, my girlfriend just informed me Mojo ( my BP) was Laying on his side, with his mouth kind of drooped open. She feared the worst and called me. I told her to pick him up to see if he was gone, and he sprung back to life tongue flickering and all? Wish I could post pics and videos from my IPhone. Was he giving up?

Find a Vet who will culture him ASAP. You can't effectively fight a condition until you have it identified.

If money is no object why are you asking if it's too late? I would go ahead an go get the culture and have them put a rush on it, if that's even possible.

I didn't mean to imply that I'm well off financially there spitzu. I was simply making it known that im not concerned about the money it costs for a culture if he's still cureable , and because I wanted to cover all details of my situation I avoid off topic replies. I've seen how people get interrogated and bashed on here. That's all. Plus is a culture instant? I'm awaiting a call back from my vet as we speak.

In my experience, a culture needs to be done asap, especially with very young animals. They have not built up immunity to various infections and a broad spectrum antibiotic might not work, it needs the infection to be identified and a more targeted antibiotic administered.
In regards to "giving up", sadly you will know when this happens as he will be dead, unfortunately reptiles aren't brilliant at letting us know how they are coping and the difference between pulling through and death is very small especially with one so young.
Get a culture done asap.

Sent from my phone, to the Internet, to your screen.

Agreed get a culture ASAP. A lot of the time they will look better right before they die. We just lost a pastel male to RI. Two diff antibiotics and he started to look better. Less mucus no bubbles . Then one day we go to check tubs and he's dead.
If baytril has not worked after two rounds then it's not going to. You need a culture to see what will work and soon.

^ I agree, two administrations of baytril, its not working. I can't believe the vet didn't do a culture? :omg:

Make sure you are quarentining your snake too, you don't want this to spread!

Thanks guys.
Kai- Believe me I'm not too confident in the vet where I'm taking him. They're def not herp experts there. It's just the only option I have in my area. I wish i had more knowledge, and would've asked for a culture. Thanks for the quarrentine advice, but this is my only snake. For now!

Update.
I spoke with my vet yesterday for quite some time. Cant get him in till thursday evening. Tell me if this sounds crazy, but her diagnosis is a GI problem not an RI problem?! His first checkup she did a fecal smear and found ghiardia and something else and treated him with ivermectin and another drug. She said he prob has a blockage, and I may need more ivermectin. He isn't a very productive pooper, but I figured it was because how young he is. He ate a large fuzzy yesterday no problem. She also told me to swim him daily. Does this make any sense?

The GI problem is completely unrelated to the RI IMO, get the culture. Two different issues. I'd also be on the look out for a better vet, even if you have to drive a little further. Good luck :please:

I'm with Leah on this one..........and please dont stress him anymore with a swim.

Yea I was thinking that prognosis sounded a little off. I def need a new vet because I had to convince her he still has a RI, and I need a culture. AnyOne familiar with a herp specialist around bucks county, Pa?

How far are you willing to drive? Dr. Stahl is about 3 hours from you, and is an excellent herp vet.

http://www.seavs.com/

My experience the culture at this point is a waste of money at this point the drugs the snake has been on will mask the results and they will be inconclusive at best. baytril is an old drug there are so many resistant bacteria to it that it is of little wonder it failed to work. I also don't think it sounds like a GI issue. I would look at other antibiotics other than baytril. Ceftazidime might be a better choice. I could be wrong about the culture /lung wash, but adding fluid to the lungs and draining it for a culture might be counter productive.

Snakes have a slow metabolism the vets in my area usually say 30 days of drugs and no change for 20. Yes it is worth it.

Something that may help a little in the meantime is bumping up the humidity a little.

My vet suggested this as it helps to keep the mucus thinner and easier to clear.

I am having serious doubts about this vet. I do however remember reading here recently that someone thought their snake had an RI, and it was really stomatitis, which is an infection of the mouth, throat or lining of the digestive tract.

I don't think swimming is going to help your snake one little bit. I do think you should do your best to find another vet, which is probably not going to be easy. I think your vet should at least attempt a culture of this mucus. When I had to deal with an RI, my vet didn't even consider Baytril, she said it's not very effective anymore. If I remember correctly, I think Dr Stahl does phone consultations, so that might be worth a shot.

I wish you and your snake all the best.

Gale

Shadera- I looked up the exact directions, and its def a little further than I'd like to travel. About 3hr45. Man I wish he were closer.
Kite- I'm not doubting your knowledge at all, and I appreciate you help, but you truly recommend not getting a culture? I understand your thought process, and believe me my knowledge is very limited, im jut surprised your the only one with that outlook.
Lady2- I've kept my humidity pretty average. Thismorning it was at 57%. Again my knowledge is obviously slim, but in researching I've found instructions that said raise it, and others say lower it to dry him out?! Thats the Internet for you. Luckily I have an appt. with a new and different Dr. At the same practice who specialized in snakes today at 5:45. I'm hoping for the best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riggamortis

Shadera- I looked up the exact directions, and its def a little further than I'd like to travel. About 3hr45. Man I wish he were closer.
Kite- I'm not doubting your knowledge at all, and I appreciate you help, but you truly recommend not getting a culture? I understand your thought process, and believe me my knowledge is very limited, im jut surprised your the only one with that outlook.
Lady2- I've kept my humidity pretty average. Thismorning it was at 57%. Again my knowledge is obviously slim, but in researching I've found instructions that said raise it, and others say lower it to dry him out?! Thats the Internet for you. Luckily I have an appt. with a new and different Dr. At the same practice who specialized in snakes today at 5:45. I'm hoping for the best.

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I think Kitedemon is simply stating that based on the state that your snake is in, and the fact that he just came off a run of Baytril, you probably don't want to wait for a culture. I'm sure Alex would be the first one to agree that cultures are necessary to properly treat an RI.

However, that decision should be up to the vet. More often than not, when your snake is this sick, a vet will culture but will also send you home with antibiotics that he feels will work. See, it takes time to get the results of a culture, so when a snake is as sick as yours, the odds are that the next vet will take note that Baytril did not work and get you started on another med while the culture is processed.

I'm confused as to why the vet prescribed Baytril for giardia. Giardia is a protozoal disease and usually the only antibiotic used to treat it is flagyl (metronidazole) which is effective on many protozoa. Fenbendazole (Panacur) is also used. Panacur is not an antibiotic.

I may be wrong but I thought that some species of giardia are actually native to the intestinal tract of snakes. :confused:

All opinions are suspect, no individuals should be taken at face value.

The culture is very effective before drugs, after, the drugs mask the results greatly. The outcome may not be conclusive and you just spent 300-500$ for a poor result. Your choice, but from my vet and the courses I have done it is effective before not after. It is a nasty procedure as well the process of feeding a tube into the lung adding saline solution and squeezing the liquid out and growing a culture is a very dramatic event. Check with your vet and see what they suggest.

Thanks Skip you beat me to it.

Sorry kitedemon. Honestly I wasnt trying to come off rude there, and now I completely understand why you don't recommend a culture at this stage. Thank you guys very much. Skip. Wow your knowledge is ridiculously impressive. You seriously just named every medicine my vet contimplated administering. I left out a lot o details from my original vet visit. She did not prescribe baytril for the giardia, but she gave him an injection of ivermectin? And oral metronidazole. Also at the end of my baytril prescription I gave him another dose of oral metronidazole. On the Phone yesterday she said maybe she would try panacure. Man I wish you could be my vet!👍

*facepalm*
Why would you use Panacur for giardia?
Metronidazole, yes, but Panacur? Panacur is for worms.
And none of that has anything to do with an RI.

Book a hotel room that accepts pets, and go see the doc who's 4 hours away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

*facepalm*
Why would you use Panacur for giardia?
Metronidazole, yes, but Panacur? Panacur is for worms.
And none of that has anything to do with an RI.

Book a hotel room that accepts pets, and go see the doc who's 4 hours away.

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Panacur works fine for Giardia, Donna.

I've had it prescribed in the past and have used it with success. Our dog had a bout of giardia last year and was treated successfully with Panacur under care of a vet.

Panacur is fine for flagellates.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/171411.htm

OK, I know with each passing day you get more worried but try to relax some. The one thing I would do with your set up is bump the humidity up as well. That is the first thing I would do. Next would be to order some needles here.
http://www.gpzservices.com/items/pro...eedle/list.htm
They are the 3 CC Syringe with Needle, 25 G X 1.5" (B-D)
Then I would order some tylan. It is cheap and it works. You can get it here.
http://www.amazon.com/Vedco-Inc-Tyla...0847455&sr=8-1

I can find the does you need to give based on the weight. You can order this online with out a prescription.

Most times, vets are guessing on what to do even after a culture. Vets will milk you dry when it comes to money. Tylan is 25.00 and the needles will cost you about 6.00 I believe. This is the first thing I would do. Give injections every 3 days for a total of 2 weeks. Check on the snake and give about 2 weeks with out injections. The RI might be too far along to help but I would try this. Baytril did not work or it helped maybe a little. Tylan might be the answer here. Amakacin is the other drug vets use and you need to get it fromt he vet as well. Be careful however as they will charge you for each visit, meds and on and on. You have seen this vet now and they should be able to just give you meds for Amakacin...well you buy it from them. Amakacin will dehydrate your snake so you must soak and keep humidity very high. Before I spent too much more money at the vet however, I would try tylan. You snake might be too far along for anything to help but atleast 25.00 is not another 300.00 at the vet. If by the time your tylan shots do not work, you could always ask the vet for Amakacin.

Keep use posted and know you will get through this.

I am in SE PA, and I found a Vet that is good with reptiles- may not be the best like dr. stahl, but he is honest and knowledgeable about reptiles. I had an issue with RI with a snake and took the snake to him.

Ask for an appointment with Dr. Brian Novak- hes the one who handles the reptiles. I know he has certian days off, but explain that the snake is in serious situation due to bad choices by vet, maybe they can get you in very soon.
http://www.mypetdoc.com/

I have used Trooper animal hospital as well. I initially took the snake with an RI to them first- they prescribed bayrtil, and gave me an option of injections or oral- i chose oral first- but realized its so much easier and more efficient to give the snake a shot. I do prefer Dr Novak tho, and the two places are only about 20-30 minutes apart, so if you drive to this area, I would recommend the other vet first. These are honest as well- i took a beardie in and they say they can see it, but if something is wrong with it that is out or their league they will have to send us to a specialist. They were able to help the beardie tho.
http://www.troopervet.com/

What I really like about Dr. Novak is he doesn't discredit keepers opinions. He is the first to admit reptile medicine is like cat and dog medicine was several years back. I asked him a whole bunch of questions because I always get mixed reviews about raising and lowering humidity. He never said that just because keepers of the reptiles for 20+ years don't know squat b/c they aren't vets. He will talk to you until you understand whats going on and he just is an awesome vet. He actually took in a sample of mystery jellies on short notice b/c i noticed them in a snake cage- and brought me back to say it was slugs that didnt go further since she was never paired. He took time to answer all my questions and made sure i understood.

Their vet charges are a little high- 55 dollars a visit. As far as culture results- I dont know- I didnt get a second culture done because the baytril was working. But I took fecals in and got results later that afternoon( that person was in that day tho)

Good luck. if you have any more questions about the vets i recommended- just ask!
Janet