I can see insanity from my back porch.....

So I've got a '06 Bee male from a very respected breeder who was supposed to be [at least before he came here] a mega-stud who'd 'breed anything you put him in with'.
[which I why I paid so much for him...that "guarantee" of amazing potency]

I've let him settle in.
He is calm and content in his home.
He eats well, even though he refuses to eat anything not alive.
All parameters are spot-on.
I haven't handled him much because he's never been a "pet" and doesn't seem inclined to be.

Last night I put my normal female in with him, she appeared intrigued but he not only was not interested, he went into an hysterical, wall-climbing, cork-screwing, body flinging frenzy which looked like rapid, multiple suicide attempts, culminating in him finally falling upside down on his back and basically just laying there and "playing dead" until I removed her.
[Spider genes are such fun]

Someone here wondered if my snakes were truly the sexes I bought them as so I took said normal female and put her in with my male '08 pastel breeder.

Her tail went right up, he started cruising around, wagging his tail madly [?!?]
They continued doing this perpetual motion/tail display fest until I got bored of watching.

In the mean time, this made me wonder more about the Bee.
So, I took my het Clown male and stuck him in with the Bee.
Same bargain basement histrionics.

Back out came the het Clown male.

I went to fetch hubby so he could witness this madness but put in my het Clown female in this time.

She was her usual mellow, existential self and just to make a liar out of me in front of witnesses, the still-uninterested Bee did not go into histrionics [too tired from all the Shakespearean uber-theatrics before, maybe] and simply crawled into his hide to get away from her.

Out of the 3 times I've tried to introduce females to him, every single time results in this neurotic Ophidiophobia routine.

I spent far too much money on this Bee for him to just be a very pretty, eccentric pet.

Any ideas, thoughts, suggestions, theories [no matter how wild or weird] would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salamander

Last night I put my normal female in with him, she appeared intrigued but he not only was not interested, he went into an hysterical, wall-climbing, cork-screwing, body flinging frenzy which looked like rapid, multiple suicide attempts, culminating in him finally falling upside down on his back and basically just laying there and "playing dead" until I removed her.
[Spider genes are such fun].

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I'm sorry, but this really made me laugh. :rofl: I wish you could have video taped it, but your description is still amazing.

I have no useful advice, but I wish you the best of luck.

I'd would guess that the first "female" is actually a male. Do you know for a fact that she is a she?


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Hi,

Does he do the same when you introduce him into her tub instead?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I'm sorry, but this really made me laugh. :rofl: I wish you could have video taped it, but your description is still amazing.

I have no useful advice, but I wish you the best of luck.

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If anyone ever tells you that snakes can't fly, I'm here to say they're woefully misinformed.

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

I'd would guess that the first "female" is actually a male. Do you know for a fact that she is a she?


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Since I was told by her very reputable former owner that she laid 6 eggs last year, I'm gonna go with a somewhat tentative "yes".

:oops:

Both of the het Clown females laid clutches last year, as well.

[I'm awaiting delivery of a probe set to verify for myself]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Does he do the same when you introduce him into her tub instead?


dr del

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Oh, indeed he does and the very neat and tidy ladies do not appreciate his thorough trashing of their orderly homes one bit.

He appears to simply not like snakes.

I would get the animals sexed if you cannot do it yourself. Sounds like 2 males were introduced to each other.

He is spider as well it could just be he needs a bit to calm down. Have you tried putting him in the females tub and just letting them be? The corkscrew is just a sign of stress. He may calm down after he realizes what he's got in there.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

One thing I noticed that no one has brought up yet....all this introducing of different snakes happened in ONE night? If he flipped out at the first snake...for whatever reason...I would have given him a few days to calm down before trying to do anything else with him. He's already stressed after the first encounter, whatever may have caused it...so constantly shoving new snakes into his face is NOT going to calm him down.

They're primitive wild animals. There's never an guarantees, and certainly not sex-on-demand...no matter how well he might have done with another breeder in the past.

Were I in your shoes, I'd simply give him a few days to calm down...THEN try introducing him into the female's tub, rather than the other way around. And then give him a chance to settle down in there as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JasonG

I would get the animals sexed if you cannot do it yourself. Sounds like 2 males were introduced to each other.

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I wondered about that too until I put her in with my pastel male [I've seen his "proof"] and they got along famously.

After a night of [I assume] tail wagging square dances, I found them snuggled together in his too-small-for-both-of-them hide.

Meanwhile, the precocious 6 month old Spider male in the enclosure above them was going batty...presumably from whatever odors she was emitting within sniffing distance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

He is spider as well it could just be he needs a bit to calm down. Have you tried putting him in the females tub and just letting them be? The corkscrew is just a sign of stress. He may calm down after he realizes what he's got in there.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Yes, I have tried that.

The next morning found him still 'rambling' in stress mode and desperately wanting out.

I was told that he would instantly 'get down to business' when put in with a girl but it seems that is not the case.

My only other option is to put a 6 month old normal girl in there that I know 100% sure is a female but it's going to upset her terribly.

She knows she's too young to be around males and reacts with great stress that winds up with her not eating for weeks.

[very sensitive, that one]

I just have to wait for the probes to come, I reckon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

One thing I noticed that no one has brought up yet....all this introducing of different snakes happened in ONE night? If he flipped out at the first snake...for whatever reason...I would have given him a few days to calm down before trying to do anything else with him. He's already stressed after the first encounter, whatever may have caused it...so constantly shoving new snakes into his face is NOT going to calm him down.

They're primitive wild animals. There's never an guarantees, and certainly not sex-on-demand...no matter how well he might have done with another breeder in the past.

Were I in your shoes, I'd simply give him a few days to calm down...THEN try introducing him into the female's tub, rather than the other way around. And then give him a chance to settle down in there as well.

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Last night was a first, an exception to the usual rules and more of a "test" than anything else.

I've tried with each girl separately over a span of a month, limiting their time to 24 hours or much less if he didn't noticeably settle down...which he never has.

I have tried him in their home.
Them in his home.
Both in a "neutral territory" tub, just in case.

The results are always the same; uniformly berserk behavior on his part.

At this point, I'm not even remotely expecting 'sex on demand'.
I'd be happy if he'd simply not attempt suicide by self-bludgeoning.

The het Clown girls accept the het Clown male into their tubs with no complaints and probably no results either but they do accept him and he's quite happy to be in with them.

He apparently very much enjoys being the center of the 'cinnamon roll' they both form around him.

Why would you put a 6 month old girl with a male?

Your snakes must be horribly stressed out at this point!



Sent from my DROID BIONIC

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Why would you put a 6 month old girl with a male?

Your snakes must be horribly stressed out at this point!



Sent from my DROID BIONIC

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That was my whole point.
I wouldn't.

The postulation was a reply to questions about whether the other females were indeed females and she is the only female I have that I've seen proven female, firsthand.

Still, my other [assumed] females do not provoke crazy reactions from my other males like they do the Bee.

Actually, at the moment, nobody's stressed at all.

The girls are happily curled in their hides, as are the males, including the Bee, who is probably even more happy since he's not going to have to face any girls again, for quite some time.

Once he's alone again, he goes right back to being quite content.

Please do not turn this into a "horrible keeper" issue.

I asked a sincere question seeking an answer to an ongoing mystery and since I got these critters, pretty much every one of my waking hours is devoted to making sure their lives are perfect.

I've devoted so much time to studying every facet of husbandry that 90% of my time on the 'net is spent either here or reading other BP related info, trying to further perfect their lives.

The closest thing to "stress" they may be feeling right now is their frustration that the Boas were fed last night and they were not.
They were all out sniffing the thawed rat smells but received no food as their feeding schedules are not the same as the Boas.

Tomorrow they'll be relieved of that "stress".

I don't think this is a "horrible keeper" issue at all. I've no doubt that you care a great deal about the well being of your snakes and do your best by them. I think it's more of a "communication" issue. Your first post makes it sound very much like you tried breeding him for the first time last night and threw a bunch of different snakes in there with him with obviously no success. Only after being questioned about it did you say you'd been trying for a month. You say your "only other option" is to throw the six month girl in there with him AS IF that is an option at all. Which obviously it is not. But your post made it sound like you thought it was. That's all.

All I can suggest is to try not to be so stressed about it. I DO understand it can be frustrating when they don't behave as we expect them to, but we have to understand that such things are going to happen. Have you tried contacting the snake's original owner and discussing your concerns with him/her? Maybe they can go over their exact routine that the snake is used to? But even if you get exact instructions...your house smells different...sounds different...feels different. Maybe this is just a very sensitive snake that you'll have to have a lot of patience with to learn what he needs to feel comfortable. It may take longer than the "norm."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

I don't think this is a "horrible keeper" issue at all. I've no doubt that you care a great deal about the well being of your snakes and do your best by them. I think it's more of a "communication" issue. Your first post makes it sound very much like you tried breeding him for the first time last night and threw a bunch of different snakes in there with him with obviously no success. Only after being questioned about it did you say you'd been trying for a month. You say your "only other option" is to throw the six month girl in there with him AS IF that is an option at all. Which obviously it is not. But your post made it sound like you thought it was. That's all.

All I can suggest is to try not to be so stressed about it. I DO understand it can be frustrating when they don't behave as we expect them to, but we have to understand that such things are going to happen. Have you tried contacting the snake's original owner and discussing your concerns with him/her? Maybe they can go over their exact routine that the snake is used to? But even if you get exact instructions...your house smells different...sounds different...feels different. Maybe this is just a very sensitive snake that you'll have to have a lot of patience with to learn what he needs to feel comfortable. It may take longer than the "norm."

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Oh, good lord, no!

My little Iggy was never in any peril of being put in with him ever.

The only reason I know precisely how horrible it would be for her is because hubby accidentally put a juvenile Fire male into her home on cleaning day, having mistaken him for her when she was already done and back in her house.

She was mortified, stressed and angry!

To get her to even settle down and go into her hides, I had to re-clean everything in her house to rid it of residual "boy stink'.

To make it worse, she didn't eat for 2 weeks after that incident and she's an absolute pig about food.

[hubby is no longer allowed to "help" with the snakes at all]

The breeder is rather busy and hard to get hold of but I will try.

Hubby just wanted to 'get my money back' but the snake is, IMO, anyway, quite beautiful and as usual, I've come to love the little jerk, warts and all so that's not even an option.

I'm sure everything smells/sounds/feels different to the snake.
He came from a large, famous breeding facility where everybody lives in racks to a home where he lives with hides, trees, people living their every day lives, etc.
The live mice he insists upon eating were even an issue, at first.
These mice are not the mice he was used to since they came from a different breeder/genetic strain of mice/other mouse food/bedding type/infinite variables, possibly.

He is extremely sensitive and not 'human socialized' at all.

This spring we intend to turn a spare room upstairs into a "snake room" where they'll all be sequestered from the 'sensory pollution' of an active household.

I had a male cinny that would do the same exact thing to the "T" he even broke open a tun one time but I would let him go through his hissy fit and within 30-45 mins he would lock up he was one of the best breeders I'd ever had even though he went crazy every time I introduced a female to him try just leaveing him in there and see what happens good luck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salamander

I'm sure everything smells/sounds/feels different to the snake.
He came from a large, famous breeding facility where everybody lives in racks to a home where he lives with hides, trees, people living their every day lives, etc.
The live mice he insists upon eating were even an issue, at first.
These mice are not the mice he was used to since they came from a different breeder/genetic strain of mice/other mouse food/bedding type/infinite variables, possibly.

He is extremely sensitive and not 'human socialized' at all.

This spring we intend to turn a spare room upstairs into a "snake room" where they'll all be sequestered from the 'sensory pollution' of an active household.

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How long did you give him to settle in and quarantine before beginning introductions? Are you keeping him in a glass tank in a high-traffic area? If his environment has changed that dramatically, it might take quite a while for him to settle down enough to see a female as anything other than another stressor.

Question:

Have you tried putting him in the females tub, instead of the other way around ? I move my males, not the females. Maybe he just can't handle the invasion of privacy into his space ?

Gale

I would just put him with a girl, and leave him there for a week. If he hasn't settled by then, then he would get the year off. A week isn't going to kill him, even if he hates it the whole time, and he just might settle down and get down to business, if given enough time to get over it.