Question about Python Ban

My question is. I live in Spokane Wa. which is extremely close to Idaho and I keep Burmese Pythons as well as breed them I have a gravid female right now as a matter of fact. When I go to sell the babies I know for a fact that there will be a lot of people from Idaho that are going to be interested in the babies. What is going to happen with those sales? Do I have to check I.D. to see if they are from Washington or what? Any thoughts on this would be great.

Thanks
Tom

If YOU ship across state lines, it will be illegal, plain and simple. Idk about if you sell yo someone with an idaho id though, I think it will just be their fault for transporting it back to their state

I'd like to note that Im not saying you should purposely sell to someone that you know will be trasnsporting it to another state

I'm not 100% sure but I believe they cannot cross state lines. I'm not too sure how they can enforce this so you may still be able to sell em but u may have to drive or get them to come pick them up from you. Im guessing shipping them wont be an option. The newest snake bytes show talks about this. Just go to world of ball pythons and click the media tab and under videos you should be able to find the snake bytes series. Hope this helps, even though I'm from Canada. Lol.

Well in the situation I have there would be no shipping. I am just wondering if there would be any repercussions for me selling to someone knowingly that they are going to cross state lines. I would not be the one crossing the line but I would know about it. I think I will just play it safe and not sell them to anyone that is not from Washington.

Of you sell them within your state you should be fine. If someone you sell to decides to take it across state lines its on them at that point.

There's no question that it's on them. Make it clear up front that you don't want to know where they're bringing the snake. Even if they're from the state, it's not your obligation to figure out where it's headed after the sale. In the extremely unlikely event that they get busted, you can definitely have plausible deniability in court. You wouldn't go to court though because the buyer is the one breaking the law.

I don't think that the ban will be in effect until the end of the year anyway, but I do think that you would get in a lot of trouble if you sold a burmese to someone across state lines. That would be interstate commerce and is subject to federal regulation.

i kinda gotta disagree with everyone... by selling these to an out of state buyer, you might be consitered an acessory to the crime. kinda like the middle man in stolen merchindise,,, you might not be the thief, or the buyer, but your part of the crime.... just my thoughts
spo0oky

Now what would happen if you took your snake outside for some fresh air and the phone rang and you had to run inside to answer it. When you came back out the snake was gone. :confuzd:

This is a touchy one... But even pet stores will be in this same boat if the sell Burms... If they come to you and DON'T say they are from another state, but the sale is in your state, it's technically not on you, it would be on the purchaser, IMO.... But if they tell you they are from out of state and you go through with the sale it would be on you as well as the purchaser...


Jeremy T.
J and D Reptiles
www.janddreptiles.com

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I don't think that the ban will be in effect until the end of the year anyway, but I do think that you would get in a lot of trouble if you sold a burmese to someone across state lines. That would be interstate commerce and is subject to federal regulation.

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The ban goes into full effect March 26!


Jeremy T.
J and D Reptiles
www.janddreptiles.com

I am not a lawyer, but I would imagine you'd be legally covered if you required all customers to sign a statement that they understand that transporting a burmese across state lines is a federal felony under the Lacey act and that they don't intend to commit that crime with the snake they're buying from you. If, when questioned, you produce that signed statement, it should be pretty good evidence that you're not party to a crime. Kinda like how gun shops have to keep records of every firearm sale proving that they did the required background checks and followed all regulations, etc.

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Originally Posted by JandDReptiles

This is a touchy one... But even pet stores will be in this same boat if the sell Burms... If they come to you and DON'T say they are from another state, but the sale is in your state, it's technically not on you, it would be on the purchaser, IMO.... But if they tell you they are from out of state and you go through with the sale it would be on you as well as the purchaser...


Jeremy T.
J and D Reptiles
www.janddreptiles.com

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But do you really think that the government is going to just let that work? only they get do do things like this. They will insist that ignorance is not a way out. For example if you are speeding and a cop pulls you over it doesn't matter if you never saw a speed limit sign or not, they won't care... you are getting the ticket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I don't think that the ban will be in effect until the end of the year anyway, but I do think that you would get in a lot of trouble if you sold a burmese to someone across state lines. That would be interstate commerce and is subject to federal regulation.

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The ban goes into effect March 23rd.

I can tell ya everyone is feelin it. Ive already had 3 pet stores i sell to tell me no big snakes and 1 of them doesnt want anything except corns and geckos now

I would imagine it would be the same case as other banned animals. The stores/breeders aren't responsible for what happens to the animals after they leave their care so why would they be prosecuted at all? What if someone living in WA buys a python from you and moves into one of the "illegal" states a year or two down the line? You're going to jail? Methinks no.

I guess all those pet shops and breeders in Nevada have a lot to answer for with the booming ferret population in California.../sarcasm

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Originally Posted by RuthlessReptiles

What if someone living in WA buys a python from you and moves into one of the "illegal" states a year or two down the line? You're going to jail? Methinks no.

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i cant see that causing problems, but, if a guy came up from oregan (however you spell that), bought a burm from me, went back that day, got pulled over, i wouldnt even want the possibility of that guy giving my name as the seller. i havent read the whole act or anything, but im sure they have/ will have some kind of regulations for all sales, it is the government, and they LOVE regulating things:rolleyes:

I can tell you, although I don't have any Burmese, I don't ask customers where they are from when they come to pick up animals locally. Why would I?

I like the signed paper idea. That way, if someone chooses to smuggle an animal across State lines, there's no question that they 'didn't know better'. That protects the seller.

I personally wouldn't sell to someone who TOLD me they were going to take an animal into an area where it's illegal, because that's just irresponsible, and what happens to the animal if it's seized? Of course, it would be killed.

I do hope that there will be a breeder or two to continue in each State, so the folks who live there will have the opportunity to acquire these animals if they want them. I also hope that rescues will coordinate to help folks who have to move find new homes for their animals, and possibly adopt new ones in their new State.

Most of all, I hope that USARK wins the lawsuit, rendering that all unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by cmack91

i cant see that causing problems, but, if a guy came up from oregan (however you spell that), bought a burm from me, went back that day, got pulled over, i wouldnt even want the possibility of that guy giving my name as the seller. i havent read the whole act or anything, but im sure they have/ will have some kind of regulations for all sales, it is the government, and they LOVE regulating things:rolleyes:

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Truueee but I've also never heard of a pet shop/breeder in Nevada selling ferrets to California citizens and getting in trouble because of it.

I guess I sort of view the repercussions of such a deal as all on the buyer because they know that what they are doing is illegal and the seller isn't responsible to learn the life story of the buyer.

It's kind of like when you walk into a tobacco shop and see all the pipes and bongs. The seller doesn't ask what they are going to be putting in the bong, they just sell them the bong. It's the responsibility of the buyer if they decide to break the law or not. I know inanimate objects are a poor comparison but I hope I illustrate my view well enough.

Now, the seller WOULD be liable if s/he shipped the animal to another state themselves, but not if someone else drove it across state lines.

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Originally Posted by olstyn

I am not a lawyer, but I would imagine you'd be legally covered if you required all customers to sign a statement that they understand that transporting a burmese across state lines is a federal felony under the Lacey act and that they don't intend to commit that crime with the snake they're buying from you. If, when questioned, you produce that signed statement, it should be pretty good evidence that you're not party to a crime. Kinda like how gun shops have to keep records of every firearm sale proving that they did the required background checks and followed all regulations, etc.

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This. Pay 50 - 100 bucks for a 1 hour consult with a lawyer and have them help you draft this up. I'd imagine a LOT of people are going to do that, and there may even end up being some kind of 'official' form for it.

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Originally Posted by RuthlessReptiles

It's kind of like when you walk into a tobacco shop and see all the pipes and bongs. The seller doesn't ask what they are going to be putting in the bong, they just sell them the bong. It's the responsibility of the buyer if they decide to break the law or not. I know inanimate objects are a poor comparison but I hope I illustrate my view well enough.

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This is actually a really good point. In all of the head shops I've been to, they all require you to use the word 'water pipe' instead of 'bong' and if you even say a slang word for marijuana or any similar, they kick you straight out of the store and refuse your business. So maybe breeders will have to set similar rules into effect to be legally safe. "Man, the drive back to X state is going to be long..."

"Sir, you're going to have to leave."

Maybe pet shops will start to be more like bong shops.

I support this.

I don't see this being on the seller at all...sellers are responsible for following the laws of their state/county/municipality, NOT making sure that buyers are doing the same. Venomous snakes are illegal to possess, own, or transport over state lines in New Jersey...if someone is found to own a venomous snake, they are dealt with accordingly, and as long as the snake didn't come from Jersey, nobody cares who it came from.

I think a paper the buyer signs that states that transporting across state lines is illegal would work fine.

If the buyer SAYS "Oh I'm taking it to *insert other state*" then yes, you'd be an accessory. If they buy it, and sign a paper stating they understand it would be illegal for them to transport it across state lines, then I think you'd be covered.

We might ask USARK or the Burmese Python Initiative about a 'legal form' for sellers/breeders to use for in-state sales. Or if someone wants to get a lawyer to do so on their own to share with the reptile community?