price dropping

i just need to rant here...
i HATE it when i see someone selling a snake, or snakes for 2-3 hundred dollars less than what the "going rate" is.
yea,,, a few people get a few good deals,, and yea, the seller gets a little cash quicker,,,, but by doing this, it bottoms out the true value of a particular snake. before you know it, 2011 pieds are going for 4-5 hundred dollars,,, oh wait..............................................:rage:
spooky

They are going to depreciate in value anyway I don't see it as a big problem, but I personally wouldn't do it unless I couldn't sell the animal otherwise.

It is annoying though. :mad:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

They are going to depreciate in value anyway I don't see it as a big problem, but I personally wouldn't do it unless I couldn't sell the animal otherwise.

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but to depreciate $500 in one year??????

Supply and demand.

These days, your neighbor is breeding Pieds too.

One of the things which determines price is scarcity. In 2012, piebalds are not a scarce snake. They've been around a few years and like anything which can reproduce they become more common and therefore less rare and less expensive.

Everything comes down in price. Pieds, deserts, fires, lessers--all of it. The multiple gene combos are where the higher prices are going to be now, and I can't understand how some of them are so high. A fire and vanilla cross--wow, to me that is way over what the cost of the components would indicate. Watch how fast that price comes down over the next three or four years because there will be more of them. They'll be like pewters--pretty snakes but less expensive than they were.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One person's price does not dictate the market.

Who cares what one breeder sells their pieds for? It only becomes a problem if other people start setting their prices that low too. This person is only hurting themself. It only hurts everyone else if everyone else lowers their price to match.

I bought my xbox 360 two years ago for double the price. It's inevitable for every type of "product". I in no way see my snakes as product, but you know what I mean :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One person's price does not dictate the market.

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I second that fully. Pieds aren't as rare as they were a few years ago. Think about all the "cheaper" morphs like pastels and spiders....they were once a lot higher than they are now but now you can pick up a pastel for under $100 every day. Maybe he's tried to sell those at the regular 800-900 price range, but can' sell them? It might be annoying but its not going to drop the market.

Makes you wonder what those of use that paid several thousand dollars for a morph feel when we see them going for a couple of hundred..P.S. my pied is a 2006 male ;) do that math.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One person's price does not dictate the market.

Who cares what one breeder sells their pieds for? It only becomes a problem if other people start setting their prices that low too. This person is only hurting themself. It only hurts everyone else if everyone else lowers their price to match.

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one persons,,, no,,, but 2, then 3 then 8 and so on... its called trend setting.
spooky

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

one persons,,, no,,, but 2, then 3 then 8 and so on... its called trend setting.
spooky

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Not trend setting, that's hair styles and clothing options. It's market value. If it really bugs you, perhaps snake selling isn't for you. There is an entire site whose main focus is this very topic, you may want to check them boys out.

When I first started breeding calkings heavily in the early 90s I could get 150.00 for my more unusual ones. Now, I'm lucky if I can get 20.00 to 40.00 for them. If I didn't like them so much I wouldn't work with them at all. It's the nature of the business. Can't blame the other guy, that's free enterprise at work.

I often wonder why hobbyist breeders get so bent by this. After all, NONE of them breed for the money. Do they?

I anticipate the price of med-high white Pied will settle that of Albinos (350-500) depending on quality by the end of this year. Too may folks making Pieds to maintain a high price. It is a simple recessive morph so while harder to make than a co-dom, it is still being pumped out pretty regularly.

The value of Pied combos is where it will be for next few years. Basically if you are planning to rake it in on Pieds without another gene or 2 thrown in, you are behind the market.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Not trend setting, that's hair styles and clothing options. It's market value. If it really bugs you, perhaps snake selling isn't for you. There is an entire site whose main focus is this very topic, you may want to check them boys out.

When I first started breeding calkings heavily in the early 90s I could get 150.00 for my more unusual ones. Now, I'm lucky if I can get 20.00 to 40.00 for them. If I didn't like them so much I wouldn't work with them at all. It's the nature of the business. Can't blame the other guy, that's free enterprise at work.

I often wonder why hobbyist breeders get so bent by this. After all, NONE of them breed for the money. Do they?

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and market value is set by trends:rolleyes:... it doesent really bug me,, it is what it is. i was just making an observation/rant. and no, I persionally dont breed for the money, because if i did, id need to find another hobby. there is no real money to be made here (for the hobby breeder) because after you finally get a leg up by puting an investment in a snake,, some body shoots your other foot out from under you buy hacking prices to make a few quick bucks.
spooky

$550-650 is still pretty good money...to me anyways lol. Even if you bought two pieds for $1,000 each, you would more than likely make your money back in the first clutch. Thats one reason I got a het. albino and albino, because their prices have steadied off and are very consistent so I SHOULD be safe when they are ready to breed.

its good money to me too.... i was just making a coment on how fast the value of these morphs drops.... that makes me wander why they are priced so high in the beginning,,, are they really worth the high price when we all know that in 2 years there gonna be worth half the price.
just some random thoughts
spooky

Double gene animals are the new single gene.
I agree with you though. I don't like how animals drop in value due to lowballers. Albinos are a great example. They were what pieds are worth a few years ago and now they're $350-$500. :(
It happens with every morph. And as everyone else has said, supply, demand, and a mix of rarity will determine the prices of an animal.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One person's price does not dictate the market.

Who cares what one breeder sells their pieds for? It only becomes a problem if other people start setting their prices that low too. This person is only hurting themself. It only hurts everyone else if everyone else lowers their price to match.

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This is my exact feelings on the subject as well. Well put sir.

Everywere else I have looked, pieds are still at their normal price....Maybe the guy was just feeling generous lol. I don't get why people would buy a pied (or any bp morph) for $1,000....but then again if I have something rare and people are willing to buy it at that price, why not start selling them at that price? Its kinda the same theory as selling a car, you can always come down on the price, but you can't ever go up. As much as we are in it for the love of the hobby, a lot of people out there are mainly in it for the money, and set those high prices becaues people will pay them. And if I had some morph that people were no longer willing to pay that premium price...its time to come down to where they will buy. De-valuing is a buyers market and a really sucky one for those who have invested so much originally into the morphs.

Anything and everything is only worth what someone will pay for it. Just because you want to get $1000.00 + for a pied or what ever morph it is doesn't mean people will pay that for it. So you have two options at that point keep it, feed it, house it until someone decides its worth your price or sell it for what someone is willing to pay now. You could always buy up all the one's that are too cheap in your opinion and try to resell at higher prices but I don't think that will work out for you. It also doesn't help that most people buying them plan to breed them and flood the market even more.

I was just watching an old Snake Bytes episode about the Spider ball python. Bryan said that when he bought his first spider, he spend $25,000 on it....and now look at what they're worth!

i understand that everything runs its corse,, but dont yall think that some corses might be ran a little too fast?
spooky

I think thats a fair statement to make. But honestly, I'm surprised that mostly everything has kept its value as well as it has over these rough past few years.

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Originally Posted by pigfat

I was just watching an old Snake Bytes episode about the Spider ball python. Bryan said that when he bought his first spider, he spend $25,000 on it....and now look at what they're worth!

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But...how much did he subsequently make off that spider? He was selling them each year as the price dropped. How many did he sell at $15k, $10k, $5k, etc?

I am sure BHB made his money back and then some. He got in on it early, especially with the Pinstripe. I think there is money to be made if you are one of the first few to work with a morph that becomes popular, after that it is a gamble.

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Originally Posted by pigfat

I think thats a fair statement to make. But honestly, I'm surprised that mostly everything has kept its value as well as it has over these rough past few years.

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I think that is a good point. The economy sucks and this is a business pretty much based on disposable income with the exception of professional breeders. People looking for pets have less disposable income.

Yes, I was actually pleased to see that in terms of price drop, we really only 'lost' about one year to the big crash. It could have been much worse.

Price drops on ball python morphs aren't ALWAYS predictable, but they do follow some trends.
In general, co-dominant morphs drop faster than recessive morphs.
'Popular' morphs will drop faster than less trendy ones, though less popular morphs may not be very high to start with.
(This is why spiders have come down so much).

Popular recessive morphs hold their value extremely well. In spite of being among the very first morphs discovered, look how long it's taken albinos to come down...and then look at where piebalds are STILL...it's impressive.

If every John Doe would stop breeding every pair of snakes they get JUST to give it a try, The market wouldnt get flooded. I see way too many Kids 12+ breeding, and finding it Impossible to sell them unless its to other minors.

Most Breeders/Collectors like myself will not engage with minors on sales, So they have to find someone at lower prices. And this has been getting worse year after year.

Someone New joins the hobby, gets a few normals or pastels, and in a year are breeding them with a business name under their belt. When they cant sell, guess what, the price becomes very low so they can move it.

These folks should be helped out, rather than complained about.

Pet owners rarely buy morphs. Breeders buy morphs. New breeders are customers, not competitors. It's odd, but that's the way it's working.

That's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

These folks should be helped out, rather than complained about.

Pet owners rarely buy morphs. Breeders buy morphs. New breeders are customers, not competitors. It's odd, but that's the way it's working.

That's my opinion.

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Rare for you but I sold a good 40 hatching to pet owners that had no intentions of breeding since they bought all males form me.

Most breeders bought females from me not males, unless it was a genetic powerhouse. But avg pet owner will drop 1000$ on a snake just like they do for dogs and cats.

And new breeders buying from you, does become a competitor in 1-2 years when they breed that male you sold them to every normal female they have.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

If every John Doe would stop breeding every pair of snakes they get JUST to give it a try, The market wouldnt get flooded. I see way too many Kids 12+ breeding, and finding it Impossible to sell them unless its to other minors.

Most Breeders/Collectors like myself will not engage with minors on sales, So they have to find someone at lower prices. And this has been getting worse year after year.

Someone New joins the hobby, gets a few normals or pastels, and in a year are breeding them with a business name under their belt. When they cant sell, guess what, the price becomes very low so they can move it.

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Wow! Blaming the price dropping on kid breeders. I didn't see that coming. :O

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

Wow! Blaming the price dropping on kid breeders. I didn't see that coming. :O

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Not blaming it solely on them, But its become clear more and more each year on forums younger keepers jumping into the hobby to breed thinking its money maker. Some stick around to realize its not that easy and others drop off.

I don't really worry about what I can't control...the market is the market.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Rare for you but I sold a good 40 hatching to pet owners that had no intentions of breeding since they bought all males form me.

Most breeders bought females from me not males, unless it was a genetic powerhouse. But avg pet owner will drop 1000$ on a snake just like they do for dogs and cats.

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I agree. Most of my sales were to pet owners this year. People will pay $1000 for a nice morph pet.

I do not think blaming it on hobby breeders or kids explains it. If that were the case the bigger breeders could stick the their prices and the market would hold on reputation and quality. The fact of the matter is that most everything depreciates over time, some things faster than others. It is always a gamble trying to figure where and when to get in when you want to make money.

But as has been stated repeatedly it comes down to what folks will pay. If you have a snake listed for $2000 and no one wants to buy it, it is not worth $2000. There are options there as to keeping it and putting on size/breeding, or lowering the price. There will always be folks looking to get the cheapest they can find, and that is OK. Reputable breeders have to bank on their rep and quality of the stock, and the rest will sort itself out.

In my case, I plan to breed my male to my 4 girls in a few years when they are ready. I have the capability to make some pretty decent morphs, and if that turned out to cover the costs put in to it thats great, if not that is great too. I would likely keep the higher end ones for myself anyway, but such is the prerogative of the hobby breeder. Simply, I bought morphs I like that can make other morphs that I like. I am not 12, nor am I looking to make a buck. When I go to sell my offspring I will look at the current market and sell for what I see fit based on that. Hell, I may even give away some of the base morphs to friends for free, look out market...

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I do not think blaming it on hobby breeders or kids explains it. If that were the case the bigger breeders could stick the their prices and the market would hold on reputation and quality. The fact of the matter is that most everything depreciates over time, some things faster than others. It is always a gamble trying to figure where and when to get in when you want to make money.

But as has been stated repeatedly it comes down to what folks will pay. If you have a snake listed for $2000 and no one wants to buy it, it is not worth $2000. There are options there as to keeping it and putting on size/breeding, or lowering the price. There will always be folks looking to get the cheapest they can find, and that is OK. Reputable breeders have to bank on their rep and quality of the stock, and the rest will sort itself out.

In my case, I plan to breed my male to my 4 girls in a few years when they are ready. I have the capability to make some pretty decent morphs, and if that turned out to cover the costs put in to it thats great, if not that is great too. I would likely keep the higher end ones for myself anyway, but such is the prerogative of the hobby breeder. Simply, I bought morphs I like that can make other morphs that I like. I am not 12, nor am I looking to make a buck. When I go to sell my offspring I will look at the current market and sell for what I see fit based on that. Hell, I may even give away some of the base morphs to friends for free, look out market...

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Ive been doing that for years. Giving Normals away if they wanted the extra mouth to feed. A lot took it some didnt. Those giving away snakes arent giving away expensive ones, usually its normals,spiders,pastels,or hets.

Many first time or beginning breeders, especially minors, sell to local pet stores that aren't on the professional or hobby breeders' radar. It would be nice to see reptiles, especially ball pythons, become more mainstream and we would see far less attempts to ban and restrict them as a result.

First time and only time breeders most likely will not make their money back but they are providing a useful service in supplying cheap normals and in the process, increasing the number of potential future serious morph buyers who get hooked after buying a locally produced normal. Even if not, in the light of the python bans and my own state's looming "virtually all exotic animals ban", I would greatly encourage minors to get hooked on reptile pets and one day help stop ridiculous legislation like this. New breeders are by definition this hobby's future and lower prices encourages more to get involved as well as give established breeders the opportunity to sell more "proven quality" animals.

i dont have half, or even a quarter of the time invested as alot of yall do, but when adding up ALL of my cost, i have quiet a bit of money invested (to me anyway). iv had balls for about 4 years, all were bought as young snakes, and i have yet made enough to cover food costs.. LOL i have yet to make a penny:rolleyes:. one day, i just hope to cover food cost.
spooky

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

i dont have half, or even a quarter of the time invested as alot of yall do, but when adding up ALL of my cost, i have quiet a bit of money invested (to me anyway). iv had balls for about 4 years, all were bought as young snakes, and i have yet made enough to cover food costs.. LOL i have yet to make a penny:rolleyes:. one day, i just hope to cover food cost.
spooky

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Thats what I hope to do by breeding albinos. I want to try at breeding with those two first, and see if its worth it to me, or if I should just keep them as pets and not try to breed. I know I wouldn't make a lot of money off them, but if I could cover some food costs OR just get back what I paid for the pair :D Thats why I chose to go with albinos too because its a simple recessive morph but they are still one of my favorites!

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I don't really worry about what I can't control...the market is the market.

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I completely agree. I'm not a business major but I'll give my :2cent:. First and foremost I would like to say I'm just discussing and brainstorming, please do not take to offense anything I'm saying.

I don't think there should be a set price for any particular morph. I think there is a ball park suggested value for a particular animal, but no set market value. Determining the price is based off of a couple of trend graphs. The first being the Supply and Demand graph which we should all be familiar with. The second is the Price vs Quality. And lastly, the market value is in fact controlled by the large scale breeders; this is true if you look at oil and gas companies. Gas prices typically go up during the summer because people travel. Some could be doing it because they are trying to get out, or trying to sell it cheap so they can get quick cash. Now I'm not saying that selling an animal under suggested market value is a good idea, but it happens.

On the other hand I bring to question the market value an animal. For example the market value for a clown is $1500, but the individual sells it for $1100. Who's to say the market value is the correct value? There is no standardized price for specific morphs. Which brings me to the next question who sets the market values? The market values for morphs are set by the large scale breeders. IMO they base these prices on a few things (I'm going to try and make this as clear as possible). For example, I'm going to assume the parents cost $1000 each, they produce 4 eggs, food cost $300 per year, husbandry cost $550 (includes electricity), medical cost $150 per year, and lets say time spent is worth $400. Therefore theoretically an offspring's value is ($1000 + $1000 + $300 + $550 + $150 + 400)/4 = $850. You still need to make profit so you bump the price up 20% at minimum = $1020. There's always an X factor; how much do I think this morph is worth and what are the capabilities of it genetically? The X factor could 2x, 3x, 1.5x, etc... from the initial value.

In conclusion I think that there shouldn't be a justified market value. Everyone has in their own right to sell things how they see fit. I prefer buying quality things and don't mind paying for it. Sorry for the long post.

If you breed quality you will sell snakes at a fair price.

Too many people are breeding "average at best" quality stuff and then they complain they have a problem selling their stuff at the "normal" market price :rolleye2:
I believe If your not looking to buy the best example of the morph to breed then you just shouldn't be breeding.
I consistently see people buying the cheapest snake they can find, wanting to breed it to any ole normal they already have, just to make babies.

It seems that many to most people who jump into breeding do so with little or no clue what selective breeding entails, so they end up with snakes that don't create a high demand due to their mediocrity.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

If you breed quality you will sell snakes at a fair price.

Too many people are breeding "average at best" quality stuff and then they complain they have a problem selling their stuff at the "normal" market price :rolleye2:
I believe If your not looking to buy the best example of the morph to breed then you just shouldn't be breeding.
I consistently see people buying the cheapest snake they can find, wanting to breed it to any ole normal they already have, just to make babies.

It seems that many to most people who jump into breeding do so with little or no clue what selective breeding entails, so they end up with snakes that don't create a high demand due to their mediocrity.

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And, I'm sorry to say, this is not limited to ball python breeding but happens with other animals as well.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

If you breed quality you will sell snakes at a fair price.

Too many people are breeding "average at best" quality stuff and then they complain they have a problem selling their stuff at the "normal" market price :rolleye2:
I believe If your not looking to buy the best example of the morph to breed then you just shouldn't be breeding.
I consistently see people buying the cheapest snake they can find, wanting to breed it to any ole normal they already have, just to make babies.

It seems that many to most people who jump into breeding do so with little or no clue what selective breeding entails, so they end up with snakes that don't create a high demand due to their mediocrity.

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You make a very good point. Which is why I'm going to sell my female red blood python once I get her up to breeding size instead of breeding her. And get me a quality female from Kara, Tim, Tracey/ David, or Keith. I'd really like to buy a blood python from David and Tracy, but I don't have that kind of money yet.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Makes you wonder what those of use that paid several thousand dollars for a morph feel when we see them going for a couple of hundred..P.S. my pied is a 2006 male ;) do that math.

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Just guesstimating.. about 5 grand for that guy back in the day, right?

I've been trying to track "market prices" of morphs since 2000, and the best trend I can find is that any particular morph or any particular combo seems to drop in price by half every 2 years... again, "roughly", from the numbers I've looked at.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Just guesstimating.. about 5 grand for that guy back in the day, right?

I've been trying to track "market prices" of morphs since 2000, and the best trend I can find is that any particular morph or any particular combo seems to drop in price by half every 2 years... again, "roughly", from the numbers I've looked at.

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Thanks for sharing. Wish I had those trends for blood python morphs :D. But I presume it's relatively close, maybe not half because the blood python market isn't very big IMO.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

If you breed quality you will sell snakes at a fair price.

Too many people are breeding "average at best" quality stuff and then they complain they have a problem selling their stuff at the "normal" market price :rolleye2:
I believe If your not looking to buy the best example of the morph to breed then you just shouldn't be breeding.
I consistently see people buying the cheapest snake they can find, wanting to breed it to any ole normal they already have, just to make babies.

It seems that many to most people who jump into breeding do so with little or no clue what selective breeding entails, so they end up with snakes that don't create a high demand due to their mediocrity.

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Without those people though, the hobby would be very expensive and very exclusive as nobody could afford BP. If all BP were several thousand dollars because they were the "best example of the morph" this forum would be alot smaller and you likely wouldn't have any snakes.

I think there is a difference between pride and elitism, but sometimes it can be a very fine line. Pride keeps quality in the hobby, but elitism will alienate the base buyers.

High end breeders cannot perpetuate each other. Got to have the kid that wants a Normal or the guy who wants a pet Mojave (or whatever) and is not looking for the cleanest example of the morph to keep business aloft.

I would be interested to know the general limit for a pet BP. I would say maybe $1200 (just off the top of my head). May be a few outliers that want an especially trophy pet. So, then most anything over $1200 is probably being sold to another breeder, or someone who intends to breed it.

As a pet owner, and I do plan to pick up a second snake sometime. I currently have no intentions of breeding, my limit is $400. For certain morphs I would certainly take an average quality example of a certain morph if its what I really wanted.

I think more than anything young keepers are very important to this hobby. You have to have a base and foundation somewhere. I can tell you, when I started in this hobby at that age I could hold my ground with the best of them.

slacking off somewhere using tapatalk

I keep hearing people saying that guys that spend so much on an animal got screwed cause they are worth a fraction of the value now. So let me respond from experience as one of those guys. I bought my very first spider in like 2003 for close to 20k from rob at spiderballs.net. that spider was 500 grams. By breeding season i got him up to 850 grams. I bred to 5 females. 3 out of the 5 took. Out of those 3 i got 6.4 spiders. I sold all the males for 15k each and the girls for 18k each. You do the math. Enough said. Look what people have to understand coming into the hobby where combo and triple morphs are common place is that we didnt use to have it like that. The spider when it came out to the public was the big killer morph. This was a time when the holt grail white snake hadnt been produced yet and pieds were over 10k and we didnt have nearly what you see now. We all knew spiders were a single codom morph and knew it would soon start dropping. The key with any animal is get in at the infancy and milk it for all its worth. As soon as everyone gets their hands on an animal the prices drop. It just is what it is. No one should be surprised how quick the spiders dropped. Thos of us working with them at the time knew they would and if you look at todays trends the same is happening on alot of animals. Look at mojaves, caramels, pieds, albinos etc. All dropping. Look at combos like lemon blasts, bumble bees, sterlings etc. All dropping. It doesnt matter what ya do or what ya like they will always drop as long as their is more supply then demand.