Federal snake ban has reptile dealers fuming

http://www.eagletribune.com/newhamps...dealers-fuming

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Originally Posted by ER12

http://www.eagletribune.com/newhamps...dealers-fuming

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We all need to donate as much as we can afford to USARK! A petition, as stated by Skiploder, will do NOTHING. The only way we can hope to overturn this ban is by helping USARK to raise 150k and file a federal lawsuit against the USFWS!

Does anyone not get it? If the usark is trying to raise 150k to file a federal lawsuit against an organization like the hsus which has a net worth of over 170 million its juet not plausible to think much is going to get accomplished. All they have to do is tie it up in courts for years or until usark goes bankrupt. Just because an organization is created and taking donations doesnt mean anything is able to be done. Instead of sending donations so that one voice can be heard why not have thousands of voices be heard. Strength in numbers.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Does anyone not get it? If the usark is trying to raise 150k to file a federal lawsuit against an organization like the hsus which has a net worth of over 170 million its juet not plausible to think much is going to get accomplished. All they have to do is tie it up in courts for years or until usark goes bankrupt. Just because an organization is created and taking donations doesnt mean anything is able to be done. Instead of sending donations so that one voice can be heard why not have thousands of voices be heard. Strength in numbers.

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You have a point. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Does anyone not get it? If the usark is trying to raise 150k to file a federal lawsuit against an organization like the hsus which has a net worth of over 170 million its juet not plausible to think much is going to get accomplished. All they have to do is tie it up in courts for years or until usark goes bankrupt. Just because an organization is created and taking donations doesnt mean anything is able to be done. Instead of sending donations so that one voice can be heard why not have thousands of voices be heard. Strength in numbers.

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Again, we need to go over the facts.

If USARK decides to go ahead with a lawsuit, it will be against the Federal Government. Not the HSUS. Again, the lawsuit will be nothing more than challenging the basis for the rule change. There is nothing to "tie-up up in the courts".

The HSUS did not enact the rule change the USFWS did.

Your petitions are worthless. This was not voted on, this was not a bill. It was a unilateral rule change. It can only be overturned in two specific ways.

Those are facts. You all need to understand what you are fighting before you rush out of the barn with your pitchforks and your torches.

Will a lawsuit be successful? It better be. Go do your homework and find out what happens if you sue the Feds and lose. Is it winnable? Well, more homework for you all to do before you start sending in the kid's college funds to USARK.

BTW: 25,000 voices out of 7 million is pathetic. It is laughable and it is embarrassing. It does nothing but show the opposition what a fractured and feeble group we really are. Especially when a petition does diddly over squat in this situation.

But hey, if it makes you all feel better to make meaningless gestures, who am I to stand in the way of a your group colonic?

I understand what you are saying about it would be a lawsuit against the federal govt. If you dont think for a second that the hsus bankrolled this venture your crazy. A win in federal court would be a win against the hsus. No pitchforks here. I have been involved with the dc federal court on many lawsuits as a fraud investigator in the commercial insurance industry. I know not the same thing but i have seen my fair share of federal lawsuits and it is not an easy thing without support. In a lawsuit you can point all the fingers to facts that you want but an organization such as hsus (which is directlly involved) will have their bases covered. All im saying is its not just that easy to say im going to sue the govt because they were wrong. They are wrong more then half the time but they are the govt. We are an industry dealing with alot of peoples worst fears. Snakes are not like a dog or a cat. The hsus agenda is clear. They arent going to budge. They are in bed with peta and the usfws. It is clear what they want. They want all the big snakes banned. If they get their way you might as well kiss the reptile industry goodbye. They will never put an ownership ban nationally in place cause what would people do with the animals? Let em go? Kill em? Black market? Who knows. Here is what the stance of the hsus is in case some people dont understand exactly how radical their beliefs are. This is from their site.

The HSUS Recognizes a Step Forward on Exotic Snakes Rule, But Criticizes Obama Administration for Failing to Ban Commerce in Reticulated Pythons and Other Large Constricting Snakes That Dominate Trade

Without Follow-Up Action, Trade Will Shift to Other Species

Interior Secretary Salazar’s announcement banning trade in Burmese pythons is a welcome move, but The Humane Society of the United States is disappointed that the Obama administration dramatically weakened an Interior Department proposal to list nine species of large constrictor snakes as “injurious” under the Lacey Act, which would prohibit importation and interstate movement of these deadly non-native snakes as pets.

Though the original proposal, issued in March 2010, called for a ban in trade of nine species, the administration moved ahead with a trade ban for just four of them – the Indian python (including Burmese python), Northern African python, Southern African python and yellow anaconda. These four species represent only 30 percent of imports of the nine species identified as posing a significant risk to the environment by the U.S. Geological Survey. After dragging its feet for 22 months, the Obama administration ultimately failed to include in its rule reticulated pythons, which have killed more U.S. citizens than any other constrictor snake, boa constrictors, green anaconda, DeSchauensee's anaconda and Beni anaconda.

“This rule was swallowed up in the federal bureaucracy for 22 months, and put through a political meat grinder, leaving us with a severely diminished final action,” said Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of The HSUS, which was one of dozens of groups pushing for the enactment of the original proposal. “We expect trade to shift to the species omitted from the trade ban, and we can only hope that the Interior Department takes a careful look and revisits the issue.”

Large constrictor snakes have been released or escaped into the environment and have colonized Everglades National Park and other portions of south Florida. The United States has already spent billions of dollars to restore the Everglades, including protection efforts for endangered species, such as the Florida panther. The U.S. Department of Interior expected to spend $100 million in 2011 controlling invasive species, including the pythons breeding wild in Florida.

This original rule proposed by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, and supported by a bipartisan group of congressional leaders, as well as nearly all major Florida newspapers, would have closed a major pathway of introduction and helped prevent the spread of these animals to new areas and the establishment of additional species in areas where constrictor snakes already pose a problem. The HSUS has long advocated for policies to restrict the trade in dangerous wild animals as pets.

Wild animals kept as pets can injure and kill, can spread disease, and the average pet owner cannot provide the sophisticated care needed to maintain these animals in a humane and healthy manner. Though often marketed as low maintenance pets, constrictor snakes can suffer from starvation, dehydration and other symptoms of neglect.

This important rule had been delayed and weakened by the very industry that peddles high-maintenance dangerous predators to unqualified people at flea markets, swap meets and over the Internet. Constrictor snakes have killed 15 people in the United States, including seven children.

According to the U.S. Geological Survey report, imports of large constrictor snakes from 1977 to 2007 were more than 1.1 million, including the following species: • P. sebae - African rock pythons: 32,738 – 2.9 percent • P. molurus - Burmese python: 297,443 – 26.8 percent • B. reticulatus - Reticulated python: 147,485 – 13.3 percent • E. notaeus - Yellow anaconda: 1,968 – 0.2 percent • E. murinus - Green Anaconda: 13,262 – 1.2 percent • B. constrictor - Boa constrictor: 618,872 – 55.7 percent

The White House’s final rule addresses just 30 percent of the problem, while leaving 70 percent unchecked—including reticulated pythons and boa constrictors which represent more than two-thirds of large constrictor snakes in the U.S. trade. The U.S. Geological Survey report also noted that all nine species present ecological risk, concluding the following (emphasis added):

"High-risk species are Burmese pythons, northern and southern African pythons, boa constrictors, and yellow anacondas. High-risk species, if established in this country, put larger portions of the U.S. mainland at risk, constitute a greater ecological threat, or are more common in trade and commerce. Medium-risk species were reticulated python, DeSchauensee’s anaconda, green anaconda, and Beni anaconda. These species constitute lesser threats in these areas, but still are potentially serious threats. Because all nine species share characteristics associated with greater risks, none was found to be low-risk."

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I understand what you are saying about it would be a lawsuit against the federal govt. If you dont think for a second that the hsus bankrolled this venture your crazy. A win in federal court would be a win against the hsus. No pitchforks here. I have been involved with the dc federal court on many lawsuits as a fraud investigator in the commercial insurance industry. I know not the same thing but i have seen my fair share of federal lawsuits and it is not an easy thing without support. In a lawsuit you can point all the fingers to facts that you want but an organization such as hsus (which is directlly involved) will have their bases covered. All im saying is its not just that easy to say im going to sue the govt because they were wrong. They are wrong more then half the time but they are the govt. We are an industry dealing with alot of peoples worst fears. Snakes are not like a dog or a cat. The hsus agenda is clear. They arent going to budge. They are in bed with peta and the usfws. It is clear what they want. They want all the big snakes banned. If they get their way you might as well kiss the reptile industry goodbye. They will never put an ownership ban nationally in place cause what would people do with the animals? Let em go? Kill em? Black market? Who knows. Here is what the stance of the hsus is in case some people dont understand exactly how radical their beliefs are. This is from their site.

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Well, first, despite what is being rumored, the other 5 species will be hit by a future rule change.

A petition still won't change that..........and HSUS still won't be the agency that bankrolls the Feds. The challenge to the rule change will NOT be levied against HSUS but against the USFWS.

The "law suit" will come down to a challenge of the validity of the data that was the basis of the rule change and the procedures followed by the USFWS.

Nothing more, nothing less.

All the rest of this is a waste of energy.

Everyone needs to educate themselves on what happened and what happens when you challenge an amendment or rule change to the Lacey Act.

Between the multiple worthless petition threads, the misinformation being spread about the "ban" and how to challenge it, and the ridiculous claims of some sort of partial victory, our little group looks really, really messed up.

It's possible that a lawsuit won't even be necessary because President Obama could reverse it based on the fact that it was put in place based on faulty statistics, such restrictions are bad for the economy, breeding and selling snakes are a big industry and bring in badly needed revenue, and that the rule won't solve the stated problem in the Everglades.

He said in his State of the Union Address tonight that he doesn't support such government regulation that can be handled by the citizens themselves. He also stated that he supports "American ingenuity". I think snake breeding would fall into that category.

The cost of enforcing such a rule would cost alot of money and have no real benefit, and I really don't think he wants to be associated with something that will hurt this country on so many levels.

This is a Florida issue that got blown way out of proportion, and he'll probably end up pulling the plug on it before any more of the proposed species are added.

I wouldn't count on the president doing the right thing in this case. Thinking he'll "probably end up pulling the plug on it" is dangerous as it might lead you and others who read this into a false sense of security.

Essentially, if we don't put up a fight, the general population won't know about the problem and it won't matter what Obama does or does not do.

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Originally Posted by Giftbearer

It's possible that a lawsuit won't even be necessary because President Obama could reverse it based on the fact that it was put in place based on faulty statistics, such restrictions are bad for the economy, breeding and selling snakes are a big industry and bring in badly needed revenue, and that the rule won't solve the stated problem in the Everglades.

He said in his State of the Union Address tonight that he doesn't support such government regulation that can be handled by the citizens themselves. He also stated that he supports "American ingenuity". I think snake breeding would fall into that category.

The cost of enforcing such a rule would cost alot of money and have no real benefit, and I really don't think he wants to be associated with something that will hurt this country on so many levels.

This is a Florida issue that got blown way out of proportion, and he'll probably end up pulling the plug on it before any more of the proposed species are added.

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As it was said below.. I highly doubt this... Obama IMO is the worst president ever elected, everyone keeps saying "well Congress won't let him" no, it's not true. He has seen all of these bills that have gone through recently and even this addition to the Lacey act, and can easily do stuff, but sits by, why? He's trying to please the.masses to get another four years...like said.. dictatorship here we come..

The only.thing we can do is educate people on the ban, and spread around the true facts. People need to see the.media lies.. it's all for the ratings..

And remember support the USARK.

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Originally Posted by Giftbearer

He said in his State of the Union Address tonight that he doesn't support such government regulation that can be handled by the citizens themselves.



This is a Florida issue that got blown way out of proportion.

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Wonder what he meant by "he doesn't support such government regulation that can be handled by the citizens themselves"? I don't watch media or pay attention to politics much, heck I don't even watch or own a TV. I don't see how this whole Everglades situation or snake ban can be handled by citizens.

I don't just think this is just a Florida issue at all. The Everglades support life from all over the world. Over 200 non-native species of birds migrate to Everglades. If the Everglades are threatened so are the natives and migratory animals.

Why would anyone release their Exotic Snake into the Everglades!! GRR!

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Everyone needs to educate themselves on what happened and what happens when you challenge an amendment or rule change to the Lacey Act.

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I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here? Do you have an article or something that you could link us to...I'm not even sure what to search here. Sorry if I seem ignorant on this.

Thank you,

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Originally Posted by Logic_is_me_sv

Wonder what he meant by "he doesn't support such government regulation that can be handled by the citizens themselves"? I don't watch media or pay attention to politics much, heck I don't even watch or own a TV. I don't see how this whole Everglades situation or snake ban can be handled by citizens.

I don't just think this is just a Florida issue at all. The Everglades support life from all over the world. Over 200 non-native species of birds migrate to Everglades. If the Everglades are threatened so are the natives and migratory animals.

Why would anyone release their Exotic Snake into the Everglades!! GRR!

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I wouldnt follow much obama says. He hasnt kept any promises. The state of the union address was just a speech so he could poke out his chest and beat on it a bit to say look at me im trying but congress is against me. Hes just campaigning. As far as the glades go this is a south florida problem only. These snakes cant survive above south florida. Not to mention the 2010 winter did so much damage to most of the invasive pythons and killed the majority of them off. The usgs surveys are so flawed. And the problem wasnt created from people releasing pythons although im sure some people did release some. The real problem stemmed from when hurricane andrew ripped through there destroying reptile breeding facilities and blowing thousands of snakes into the glades. A bit of information the usgs, fwc and ushs didnt make public in their findings. This ban stinks to high heaven.

Reading the comments, I knew this was going to happen. I watched as people suggested we have big breeders come out and speak against the bill, that's the opposite of what we need. There is no better villain than someone who makes money off of the lives of animals. So easy to turn this into a situation of greed and abuse to those who don't know better. People never want to support the guy who's going to lose money. We need more pet owners who aren't losing any money off this ban to speak up--those who spend their money giving the snake the right enclosure, taking perfect care of it, and who treat it and can talk about it like another pet. It's harder to make a responsible pet owner a villain than it is to make a breeder a villain. Just the word breeder sets most dog owners into a fury. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

And the problem wasnt created from people releasing pythons although im sure some people did release some. The real problem stemmed from when hurricane andrew ripped through there destroying reptile breeding facilities and blowing thousands of snakes into the glades. .

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If wether conditions can destroy breeding facilities/homes with snakes causing their release then having Exotic Snakes is a obvious threat. The snake ban sucks but having thousands of Exptic Snakes roam and populate the Everglades sucks even more.

If what you're saying about Hurricane Andrew is true. Then all it takes is 1 time for them to be released and populate. Who's to say it won't ever happen again. This reason alone is stronger then blaming it on people that released their pets.

There not much anyone can say to someone when they say " these large constrictors are being banned because of people releasing them and also wether conditions like hurricanes/wildfires/earthquakes/ect destroy their facilities and free them".

Yes your right but another part of this glades situation was not talked about. The winter of 2010 killed off a devestating number of these pythons. Proving even more that they cant survive very long even in south florida. And to purplemuffin. This is an industry therefore there is worth that needs to be shown. If you dont show the govt how much tax money they are going to loose then why would they care that you should be allowed to own and sell snakes? Its always about money. Its one thing to post up on a soap box and campaign to be able to own these snakes as an owner but its alot more effective to show this as an industry in danger of being shut down and alot of tax dollars lost if this continues. And back to logic. What your saying about weather is true to som extent but bad weather and acts of god has also caused oil tankers to run aground and leak tons of oil into the ecosystems of this world. Does that mean we should ban oil too. I know its not the same thing but acts of god are acts of god. Bottom line is this is a south florida issue that the weather caused and actually with the frosts from 2010 the weather has also taken care of it. The whole truth of the situation needs to come out. Not just some insufficient surveys.