Python Ban and Economic Impact

So, my understanding at present is that the reason they have listed just 4 species is that by doing so, the economic impact is under the limit that would require a Congressional vote.

This leaves them open to do the same thing with the remaining species...as separate additions, rather than adding them all at once.
A grocery cart full of food is a lot more money than just one bag of apples, even if you come back 2 hours later and buy a bag of oranges, and then 2 hours later and buy a steak....
The total comes out to the same, but it's calculated separately. This is the loophole they are using.

I think what the reptile community really needs to do is get better numbers, harder numbers, and get them very quickly. If we can prove that the economic impact from banning any one of the remaining species is high enough to warrant a vote, then we may be able to prevent them from ever listing that species.

I also think that getting better numbers may be one way to take them to court over the Burmese, provided we can legitimately get that figure high enough.

A lot of penny counting will have to be involved--from the cost of the rats fed to a snake, to the bedding, to what a shelter would have to pay for an animal abandoned because its owner had to move out of State.

Perhaps this simply isn't feasible, but it is one legitimate avenue to consider. There aren't a whole lot of options here.

I agree with you but burm breeding isn't popular enough to make breach the economic barrier. They are smart in doing this and probably why they took boas and retics off of there.

While I don't support the ban in anyway I'm starting to have doubts about the true reasoning behind which species they decided to leave off. If the whole purpose was to get under the radar of a congressional vote (which I'm sure was part of it) why didn't they leave in the other species of anaconda (2 of which I had never even heard of before) in the final rule? I believe the two I haven't even heard of before are either not currently in the US or are not widely known so I can't imagine their sale has much (if any) economic impact.

Perhaps they're 'saving' them to pair with animals that have higher economic impacts, so they're not just listing single species.
I don't know, but you can't deny they couldn't have listed all 9 without a vote, so it's absolutely a factor.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Perhaps they're 'saving' them to pair with animals that have higher economic impacts, so they're not just listing single species.
I don't know, but you can't deny they couldn't have listed all 9 without a vote, so it's absolutely a factor.

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Ya I think making it look like they only banned 4 out of the 9 makes them think the reptile community and general public will be more excepting then banning all of them. I mean look at ben siegals youtube video showing off this last albino burm. THe tone he talked about and the way he discussed it sounded like he was like "oh well not a big deal." And I feel like everyone is feeling that way and the ppl who wanted it will vote for him. I mean that white house petition has been up for a week and at the rate ppl are signing it we won't even get close to filling it out

The Burm chunk alone is a huge deficit to the industry's economy power... There are Burms now selling for thousands, and I'm sure soon to be tens of thousands once more Lucy stuff is produced! These animals will no longer be bred as regularly because of interstate regulations in the ban. The people who see it as "no big deal" are killing us! If this was the dog community, AKC would be all over it as well as most of the US! We NEED to act now, sign all the petitions, share all the links, talk to breeders and get info and share it! Call news papers, news stations, radio stations, etc! I just did a news interview last night about the ban! Stuff is real!




Jeremy T.
J and D Reptiles
www.janddreptiles.com

I think the ban is just going to cause more problems. Now, people who will be moving out of florida and all of the other southern states will have to choose between being felons, euthanizing their pets or setting them free. Ofcourse there are other options but those seem the easiest, and lets face it. People are lazy. I myself would just choose to be a felon, I could never part with my snakes. Not for anything.

So maybe if we could provide proof of how much worse this could make the situation, we may have a small chance. Its going to be super tough, but it might be able to be done. If not, I'm pretty sure its just going to open up a black market for snakes.

I think there is a side of this people arent realizing. This is a control issue. The hsus has 1 agenda. Control ownership of animals. This is just a way for that to happen. They dont want to ban everything cause that would create a black market they couldnt control. Burms have gone way down in worth. They may be worth 10s of thousands but in the grand scheme of things thats nothing. Anacondas never took off financially and rocks well they are just nasty mean animals that never had a market. No doubt they would have had a hard time banning retics and boas because of the money they represent. But the screw the federal ban the bans you need to worry about are the ones individual states are mounting. Here in va they want to ban all boas and pythons except balls, angolans and gtp. The state bans are whats gonna hurt. You can argue the fact that the other animals will be added or not but in the grand scheme of things if the govt is going to loose a truck load in taxable dollars i dont think they are going to allow that to happen. One issue you will have with people coming forward in the industry and explaining how much money they male will open up a whole other can of worms. Alot of people dont claim everything they make so im sure the threat of audits will be there. And alot of people dont want everyone knowing what they have. The best thing usark can do is get in touch with the nra and look at how they have dealt with the federal govt. Granted the nra has the 2nd ammendment behind them but still its a good place to start

Saying it's about money is not speculation. I read somewhere where they specifically said boas were left out due to economic impact. I agree though, the state bans seem to really be mounting quickly. This is much more difficult to address too. When you write to a state that you are not a citizen of, they are going to likely ignore you. We are facing an uphill battle especially with the species that don't represent as large of a section of the economy. The big issue here are a lot of breeders seem very guarded about releasing economic data which ultimately could be our undoing.

I have to laugh every time I read about the Snake "Black Market."

Who is going to raise up a collection of snakes, breed them, incubate them, and then look for buyers on a "Black Market?"
Where are they going to purchase their feeders and supplies, and what Vet are they going to take their illegal animals to when they need medical attention?

If one customer gets caught, and turns in the breeder in exchange for a plea bargain, or no charges to themselves, the authorities will have probable cause to investigate, and make a raid on the breeder.
If you have 20 animals in your collection, that is 20 separate State and Federal felony charges of possession, with the intent to breed and sell, plus the initial sale charge that started it all.

The animals will be euthanized, while snake racks, incubators, and other supplies will be taken and charged as paraphernalia.

I would say if you don't currently run a Marijuana grow house, Meth Lab, Black Market Adoption Agency, or good ole' fashion Whore House, you are probably not going to run a "Black Market" snake breeding facility, as it will probably carry similar consequences.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

I have to laugh every time I read about the Snake "Black Market."

Who is going to raise up a collection of snakes, breed them, incubate them, and then look for buyers on a "Black Market?"
Where are they going to purchase their feeders and supplies, and what Vet are they going to take their illegal animals to when they need medical attention?

If one customer gets caught, and turns in the breeder in exchange for a plea bargain, or no charges to themselves, the authorities will have probable cause to investigate, and make a raid on the breeder.
If you have 20 animals in your collection, that is 20 separate State and Federal felony charges of possession, with the intent to breed and sell, plus the initial sale charge that started it all.

The animals will be euthanized, while snake racks, incubators, and other supplies will be taken and charged as paraphernalia.

I would say if you don't currently run a Marijuana grow house, Meth Lab, Black Market Adoption Agency, or good ole' fashion Whore House, you are probably not going to run a "Black Market" snake breeding facility, as it will probably carry similar consequences.

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You must be under the assumption that the united states is the only market for snakes. You also must be under the assumption that a breeder cant take care of a sick snake without a vet. Plus the ban doesnt stop ownership so you can still take them to the vet. They will NOT ban ownership for the same reason we are in this mess. The fear of releasing animals. Think about it for a second. This is all about control. This has been brewing for alot longer then a couple years. There was talks 15 years ago about trying to control big snakes. The only reason they are able to do it now is because of the florida issue in the glades. And like i said in another post this is our industry as reptile owners, breeders, enthusiasts therefore we need to take responsibillity for thos in our industry that released animals and the ones that didnt take precautions when the hurricane was coming to protect their facilities. These pythons didnt crawl to the glades on their own. Like it or hate it the facts are the facts. We need to take responsibillity. Invasive species is a serious threat and one that wildlife organizations dont take lying down. The snakehead for example was a result of releasing into the wild and now they can not be controlled. We catch em here in the potomac with ease.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

You must be under the assumption that the united states is the only market for snakes. You also must be under the assumption that a breeder cant take care of a sick snake without a vet. Plus the ban doesnt stop ownership so you can still take them to the vet. They will NOT ban ownership for the same reason we are in this mess. The fear of releasing animals. Think about it for a second. This is all about control. This has been brewing for alot longer then a couple years. There was talks 15 years ago about trying to control big snakes. The only reason they are able to do it now is because of the florida issue in the glades. And like i said in another post this is our industry as reptile owners, breeders, enthusiasts therefore we need to take responsibillity for thos in our industry that released animals and the ones that didnt take precautions when the hurricane was coming to protect their facilities. These pythons didnt crawl to the glades on their own. Like it or hate it the facts are the facts. We need to take responsibillity. Invasive species is a serious threat and one that wildlife organizations dont take lying down. The snakehead for example was a result of releasing into the wild and now they can not be controlled. We catch em here in the potomac with ease.

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You are correct, I had not even considered the Black Market in foreign Countries.
:rofl::8::rofl::8::rofl:

"We" don't need to take responsibility for anything that "we" had no part in.
Not one of my animals is loose in the Glades.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

You are correct, I had not even considered the Black Market in foreign Countries.
:rofl::8::rofl::8::rofl:

"We" don't need to take responsibility for anything that "we" had no part in.
Not one of my animals is loose in the Glades.

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...Really? Enough said after what you quoted was said...

One thing I have been criticized for on other topics was being insistent on breeders acting like a business, there are so many whom seem to run like a underground business no address, no insurance, no record of any employees and perhaps no registration or tax information. That means they simply do not exist as far as the government is concerned. This is where it is going to bite back with no business records on file there is no income and the economic impact is reduced. I was told that each snake can bring in 30,000 a year. I am still skeptical of this big time but if even 1/3 of this the number is right.The numbers of boa breeders makes this a huge economy IF they have been registered and paid taxes on the income if not... they simply don't matter. What I believe to be the worth of the boa breeding and what can be proven by hard fact may be a huge difference. Perhaps monumental. I can't say for sure but it sure seems like this is likely the case from my perspective. It is a shame as this pseudo business practices may actually do more harm than anyone could ever have foreseen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjk890

You are correct, I had not even considered the Black Market in foreign Countries.
:rofl::8::rofl::8::rofl:

"We" don't need to take responsibility for anything that "we" had no part in.
Not one of my animals is loose in the Glades.

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As either a snake owner or a breeder you are a part of the industry therefore as part of it you do have to accept what goes on. The attitude of, it wasnt my sbakes that got out or i didnt do it, only fractures us even more. If we are going to get anything accomplished it has to be done as the industry against the govt not a bunch of people going in all different directions. There is a huge overseas market. Dont think for a second people wouldnt take the chance on getting animals out of the country. There is a black market created whenever something becomes illegal. As long as there is money involved it will happen.

http://www.deviantconstrictors.com/b...e-other-5.html

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Originally Posted by rjk890

You are correct, I had not even considered the Black Market in foreign Countries.
:rofl::8::rofl::8::rofl:

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You know, it's not actually illegal to EXPORT them...correct me if I'm wrong. So, any black markets in foreign countries would be irrelevant.

I think there are serious issues with enforcing this Lacey Act ruling, which will knock out shipping, but will not prevent someone from driving to pick up an animal. The breeder does nothing wrong by producing and selling the animals, and it's on the customer's head to smuggle it across State lines if that is their intent. It's foolish to believe that will not be done, particularly when rare morphs are involved.

I have trouble seeing many, if any, people getting caught for it.

The problem is, that behavior, if it IS detected, is just going to make the reptile nation look bad.

It is not illegal to breed them or to have them treated by a vet, just for them to cross state lines. And I really doubt the police are going to pull someone over on suspicion of burmese pythons. Also, it is unlikely that fedex would open a package with a burm in it if it was marked as something else.
It's pretty crappy that the Lacey Act won't even let breeders ship to each other.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

You know, it's not actually illegal to EXPORT them...correct me if I'm wrong. So, any black markets in foreign countries would be irrelevant.

I think there are serious issues with enforcing this Lacey Act ruling, which will knock out shipping, but will not prevent someone from driving to pick up an animal. The breeder does nothing wrong by producing and selling the animals, and it's on the customer's head to smuggle it across State lines if that is their intent. It's foolish to believe that will not be done, particularly when rare morphs are involved.

I have trouble seeing many, if any, people getting caught for it.

The problem is, that behavior, if it IS detected, is just going to make the reptile nation look bad.

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If it is legal to keep, breed, and sell them, then it is not a "Black Market," and is not what I was talking about.

I was talking about those that do not care one way or the other about fighting the legislation or bans, and say that when snakes are outlawed, they will be business as usual and sell on the "Black Market."

There are always going to be a few of those, but they don't do the hobby any good, and we should probably largely ignore comments like that, when they can't be discouraged.

This entire ban is about industry control. They would not be banning. If it was just a hobby. This is about controlling an industry that has gotten huge. The reason the other snakes were not added isnt because it was the only way for them to do this without a vote. Its because the other species represent alot of money. there are many that believe this is just a way for the govt to keep their thumb on the industry.

Then we will just have to get bigger, and fight even harder.