Lets ALL be responsible

Over the past few months I have been noticing a lot of posts about people just getting their first ball python. There is a lot of "I have my baby ball python in a 40 gallon tank, with a heat lamp, and a UTH and my ball is outside the hide all the time". When caring members on here ask about the setup, the new owner doesn't know the temps, humidity, theres no thermostat, and the enclosure is much too large while only having one hide.

It really kills me that people get a snake and havent researched how to care for it. Its just a pet peeve of mine now. I know that rush of getting a snake and getting into it before you have everything, I think a lot of us have been there. Its SOOO hard to wait to get one. Before I got my first ball, I did my research on here, and had my tank set up about 3 days before I got my ball. Now, I know I asked a lot of beginner questions about certain things, mainly on keeping humidity up without misting 500 times a day. But I think I was fairly well prepared for my snake.

So here is the reason I'm writing this post. I am planning on breeding my bp's in the future. I am doing it because I love my snakes and enjoy it, and it never hurts to make a little money from doing something you love. But I think there should be an even greater responsibility to breeders and future breeders. I ask that you be responsible enough to not make money your number one priority. I am going to make it my policy, that to buy a snake from me, you have to provide details of your enclosure, humidity, temps, heating types and if its regulated/unregulated. I know that none of us would keep our own snakes in an enclosure without any of these, so why would we sell an animal that we love to someone who doesnt have the proper setup? If we sell to someone that we know doesnt have a proper setup, we are no more responsible than the person we sold it to. It might not be the best thing to do, but I think its the RIGHT thing to do.

I'm glad I stumbled on this website before I got my BP, even though I had a pretty good idea about temperature/humidity requirements before hand.

It's sad that even the employee at the local "reptile store" (they only sell reptiles) told me that I don't really need a thermostat, and humidity isn't really a big deal if I just have one ball python that is a cheaper morph. I didn't even ask him if the UTH I bought from them could burn my snake because I knew I would get some ridiculous answer.

I thought I was unprepared with a UTH, overhead lamp, tinfoiled lid, dimmer on the UTH as a temp until my Herpstat arrived, a digital hygrometer and two digital thermometers until I sourced an accurite in Canada.

You make some good points. have never been asked about my husbandry or keeping conditions. That may be related to buying morphs and folks assume you know what is up by that point. I would never be offended if someone did ask though before selling me an animal.

Pet stores generally only ask about set-ups to try to sell you more stuff, not out of concern for the animal.

Generally when a very obviously new person buys from me I ask for proof of setup. They can either bring the set up to me or send pics etc. I do whatever possible to help them tweak the setup or set things up right etc. I normally only see very new people with the normals I have for sale in my local surrounding area which makes it easy for me to help. Many other folks that buy from me are breeders themselves or people that have kept balls for awhile.
Even so i am always at their disposal for qs or concerns. Normally I have a conversation with all potential buyers and I can feel them out a bit. I feel it is my responsiblity as the animals breeder. If I feel like the people are unwilling or unable to do what's best for the snake then I don't mind losing a sale. Obviously you can't control everything but I do my darnedest.


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I'm going to be honest here... I see your point BUT assuming that people don't do their research is not fair. The problem is that there is sooooo much inconsistent information out there. We did tons of research before getting our ball. I read most every care sheet out there, asked our reptile guy questions, etc, etc, etc. until joining forums I had no idea the small details we were missing. Hell, I find inconsistencies between forums :/ I have Also discovered that forums can lead one to be unsure of everything they are doing and not doing. Is this right? Is that right? I think it's important that people are told that if their animal is healthy, content, and thriving that what one is doing is fine if temps/humidity are where they should be. ALSO... Not everyone is able to buy multiple enclosures. For the regular everyday person fish tanks are the option they know about and are readily available. Reading that a bp needs to be provided a small enclosure to begin with and upping as needed equals a HUGE expenditure. Long term dictates buying that 40 gal right away. Tub setups are not widely known and even then you'll have to upsize your uth along with the tub. Idk... After joining forums I feel like a first time snake owner even though our bp has been healthy and thriving for 1 1/2 years.

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Originally Posted by UpNorth

It's sad that even the employee at the local "reptile store" (they only sell reptiles) told me that I don't really need a thermostat, and humidity isn't really a big deal if I just have one ball python that is a cheaper morph.

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Cheaper morph!? Rrrr... :mad: My normal will always get the best care that I can provide, regardless of how much my other snakes cost me. They all will, and they all get equal care. That is just infuriating...

I didn't do a whole lot of research before getting Jackson, and I do regret that I didn't. Jacks had to put up with a lot of tweaking before I got anything right. I just assumed that the guy at the pet store knew what he was talking about, and I am trusting to a fault. (Some would call it naive...) I would have done a lot of stuff differently if I had found this site before I got him. And I certainly would have appreciated if I had been given proper instruction on how to set up his enclosure by the person I got him from- it even would have saved me lots of money. The guy at the store convinced me that they were really cheap animals to care for. I spent lots trying to figure out what actually works, and they're not really too expensive as long as you get the right stuff to start with... Thankfully for Jacks, I am the type who cares enough to say "oops" and make an effort to get it right. There are tons more people who would rather allow their pet to live in bad conditions or try to get rid of it rather than fix their mistakes.

There should be a sense of responsibility from both the seller and the buyer. It is important to be a responsible pet owner and do your own research before buying any pet. (<--Not a mistake I will make again.) It's also a good idea for the seller to know how to answer any questions they might be addressed with concerning the care of the animals they offer. This site has helped sooo much. I am glad you care enough about your animals to make an effort to educate potential buyers. :D

"Cheap" *snort* lol. That's funny.

WifeofSlasher- I know some people may not be able to afford growing enclosures and may opt for a larger one right away, but I would discuss how they need to have multiple of hides throughout the enclosure instead of just one. There IS a lot of mis-information out there, thats why I was saying to generally ask them about their enclosure. You can generally tell who knows what they are doing and those that are newer to the hobby. But I just think its a good idea to know who you're selling to.

That I do agree with. Maybe it would be a good idea for every breeder to have a care sheet of some kind on their website with links to further information. I ran across one that shocked me from a retailer. It had an awesome diagram for how to setup and enclosure. Specifically a tank. I know that fish tanks are for fish but maybe some great info on this would be super helpful for those like myself that had no clue about tub setups in the beginning or those like my husband that really want to be able to see their snake when they decide to come out for the evening.

With the ban I have thought about this somewhat too: I believe a lot of people will be rushing in to buy a certain snake that is already on the ban list or might soon become on the ban list without truely being ready to take care of the animal - they want to get it NOW in case they won't be able to later.

I suppose all I could hope for is that if someone is new and HAD done their homework to just come and ask any and all questions they can. They won't be pointed in the right direction if they don't speak up and ask for help. It peeves me more to see people not want to LISTEN to good advice and continue doing things in a "wrong" or not as good way.

I will admit, when someone buys a morph from me, and doesn't tell me it's their first snake, I do tend to assume they know how to care for it. Perhaps I should take more care with that, as well.

I do inquire about the setup, and offer free care sheets, whenever someone buys a normal, or tells me that the snake is their first.

It's great that you put so much time and effort into getting everything setup ahead of time, but I don't think it's far to say that people with bad/basic setups didn't do their research ahead of time. I also don't believe that rheostats and thermostats are necessary.

It took me a while to get my first ball python setup in a good enclosure and I finally settled on using a rack (which I do believe you have to have a thermostat for) but I didn't use dimmers or thermostats when I used tanks. Yeah my tank was less than perfect but my snake was fine. I still don't use a rheostat in my boa's cage because her temps are fine without one. Most animals are fairly hearty and can survive ignorant owners (and there is a difference between an ignorant owner and an abusive/neglectful owner).

I'm not trying to say that an animal wouldn't be happier with an owner who can provide the perfect setup, but if the animal is healthy and care for I think that is fine. With all of the information on the internet it can be extremely overwhelming to a new owner or potential owner. My local herp society president has helped me see that basic care sheets are really the way to go with new owners and children. The first time I heard him describe a setup to someone I was shocked by how basic it was, but I can now see the logic behind it. You don't want to bombard new owners with information, they can learn slowly as long as they have that basic setup.

If you start listing of all of things you think a new owner has to have and then stop to think about how much of that is truly necessary you'll realize that a ball python can do just as well in a fish tank with a UTH, bedding, 2 hides and a water dish as it will in an elaborate setup. If you use bedding and not news paper or paper towels on top of the UTH there is little chance your snake is going to get burnt from it. Technology has come a long way and most of these devices will fail off now instead of on making them safer. UTHs also only get so hot. I have a thermometer on top of the UTH and below the bedding in my boa's cage and that maxes out at 105 degrees. Yes that is hot, but it's hot because the bedding is trapping in the heat.

Thanks just my opinion and I'm sure most will disagree with me, but such is the case when you are going against the grain.

I feel quite strongly on this one. I applaude the setiment and I think it will work most of the time. Personally I don't believe a rack, tank, tub, homebuilt or purchased enclosure makes much difference at all. The difference come from the person setting it up. Caring trumps passing interest everytime. The problem partially is that some people don't understand and or make the commitment for the long term. A person could be very interested and enthusiastic and have everything proper and 10 months later be uninterested and lazy and start making short cuts. I have been involved with a number of rescues (in the true sence animals either abandoned by the owner or seized from the owner due to neglect and or abuse) It is heart breaking to see a pair of animals adopted out to a 'good' 'forever' home to be called to go and get them because 'personal probles' to find the two well balanced enclosure they were adopted with both snakes are now in one and the other is standing in the corner. The UTH broken on the one in use (other is fine) this is the beginning of a rant so you get the picture no reason just no comitment to the well being of the snakes at all.

I don't think you can make someone else have this comitment. The thing I see won't work but I think normals are FAR too cheap no animal should be sold for less than 100$ and even that might be to low. All that would happen is that you as a breeder will end up with all kinds of animals you can't use and can't sell.

I understand the frustration, but I think that we should extend the utmost patience and understanding to people who have made even a small effort to research (for instance, even providing ONE hide is better than nothing). Many people also believe that pet store employees always know what they are talking about, and can give them all the advice they need to care for their new pet. I mean, in a perfect world it would make sense for them to be the experts.

The people who infuriate me are the ones who see a snake as a "cool" pet that they want to impress other people, or because they're curious but have no real interest in caring for it. People who also fall into this category are the snake flippers on craigslist, and "breeders" who think that snakes are a quick way to make money.

If somebody has good intentions but a lack of knowledge, that is easily remedied. A person who doesn't have good intentions....well, let's just say they're lucky I don't know where they live.

With all that said, my first snake was a corn snake, which is good because I made a TON of mistakes with him and he still survived me. :D

I woul think that most people who don't do their research don't even buy from breeders. Probably get their first from their local pet store. But that's just a thought. I know that from that 1 pole on was your first bp a normal and like 85% said yes I wonder how many of those normals actually came from a breeder. Just a thought though.

Correction its 70% of first bps were normals.

I know that we can't control what pet stores say and stuff, but as for us, I hope we would be sure to help push people in the right direction. My first was a normal het. albino but I actually bought him from Will Bird, but I know most probably bought from a big store.


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