Uhh, I think I need help.

So these past couple weeks I've noticed something really wierd. I fed my snakes like any normal day, except for my boa, she had been off feed for a couple months. Last week I checked on my IJs and BP that fed, all three had regurged and in a couple days they died. That really freaked me out, I don't know why it happened. My temps are all good and they have paper towels for sub.
My wife gave me the idea that it might be the rats that I had fed them. I honestly didn't think anything of it since it had never happened before, but now last thursday, my boa just started feeding and today I see that she had regurged as well.
What could be happening? Could this really be the food, or is it something else unseen by the naked eye?
Please, Please, Please help if any of you know anything.

Where are these feeders from? And what type of heat source do you use?

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

Where are these feeders from? And what type of heat source do you use?

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The feeders are from the local pet store. Unfortunately it's the only store for about 80-100 miles. The feeders are frozen and I leave them to defrost for a few hours under warm/hot-ish water.
My heat source is off of individual heat pads hooked to a power source, hooked to a rheostat. I also have my in house temp at about 75-78. When I check the temp in their tubs its at around 88-91 (bottom tub is the coldest) the cool side is at 76 for the majority of the time.
Do you think I've done something wrong? Does anything seem wierd?

so here is a thought...if you are de-thawing the mice/rats under hot water for a few hours you could actually be cooking the mice/rats...if that is what happened it would explain both the re-gurge and the deaths...just a thought

Has anything changed in the room where these snakes are kept? (has something been sprayed around the snakes, have you used something new or different to clean/sanitize their enclosures, etc)?

BigJ- do you mean that however hot the water is or however long I have it under that water, it's cooking them? or do you mean to try "cooking"/microwaving it? Just trying to make sense, your post kinda confused me for a moment.

Daybreaker- no, nothing has changed as far as cleaning and maintenance goes.

If I were you I would start to buy my feeders frozen online from a place like rodent-pro. It will probably be cheaper and you will know that they are safe. Your temps seem fine and while a proportional thermostat would work better a reostat will work as well. I'm sorry I can't give you any more insight but I think that you should defiantly find a new source for your feeders.

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Originally Posted by d-monster

BigJ- do you mean that however hot the water is or however long I have it under that water, it's cooking them? or do you mean to try "cooking"/microwaving it? Just trying to make sense, your post kinda confused me for a moment.

Daybreaker- no, nothing has changed as far as cleaning and maintenance goes.

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Cooking them = bad he was saying that the hot water might be cooking them. I defrost mine in room temperature water, then heat them up with a blow dryer. This has worked great for me.

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Originally Posted by d-monster

So these past couple weeks I've noticed something really wierd. I fed my snakes like any normal day, except for my boa, she had been off feed for a couple months. Last week I checked on my IJs and BP that fed, all three had regurged and in a couple days they died. That really freaked me out, I don't know why it happened. My temps are all good and they have paper towels for sub.
My wife gave me the idea that it might be the rats that I had fed them. I honestly didn't think anything of it since it had never happened before, but now last thursday, my boa just started feeding and today I see that she had regurged as well.
What could be happening? Could this really be the food, or is it something else unseen by the naked eye?
Please, Please, Please help if any of you know anything.

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Get a necropsy done. If the last snake hasn't died, get her to a vet.

Your snakes are not going to regurge and die from a partially parboiled rodent. You already stated that your boa had been off feed for a time preceding this rash of deaths.

You can listen to people take stabs in the dark here and never know what happened, or you can spend a few bucks and either get some tests run on the remaining snake or - if it dies - get it necropsied.

I doubt it is the food. In 30 years of keeping snakes I've never had a snake die because of a "bad" rodent. Now all of a sudden, I see more and more posts where people ASSume it's a rodent because they (1) won't take their animals to the vet for a proper diagnosis or (2) won't pay for a necropsy to figure out what killed their animals.

There are a fair number of diseases, both bacterial and viral, that could be causing what you are experiencing. While I can't diagnose any of them for you with any accuracy, I can point you in the direction of someone who will - a qualified herp vet in your area.

There are nasty rats that have been coming out of one of the online supplies. A boa breeder wrote a blog on them. These snakes would regurgitate and then die. Some would regurg and then later go into a deep shed and lose all of their color. I'll try to find the link.

Search redtailboa for "toxic rats". I can link from my phone or see any signatures to get to the blog entry.

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Originally Posted by WifeOfSlasher

Search redtailboa for "toxic rats". I can link from my phone or see any signatures to get to the blog entry.

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Don't bother. It's a recent thread and has nothing to do with "toxins" but the supposed inability of certain boas to handle the supposed elevated fat content in certain rats. It's not the first time someone has mentioned "toxic rat syndrome". Nor that certain snakes like hypos or bccs are more susceptible. That people who are proponents of that "syndrome" also specifically go out of their way to claim that it affects boas only, and that pythons are not affected. It has never been proven and is at best, anecdotal.

What I've never seen is a link to where it has ever been proven. I've seen a bunch of ASSumptions regarding how boas somehow cannot handle the higher fat content of some lines of rats and this in turn leads to an overbloom of bacteria in the gut which leads to sepsis and death.

The OP is having issues with snakes that are not boas, which was preceded by his boa going off feed for an extended period of time. While toxic rat syndrome has never been proven, it is a misnomer at best. If has little to do with toxins and everything to do with fat content. None of it proven and all purported to affect only certain strains of boa. The OP has had his pythons die - not his boa.

Take the snake to a vet and have it examined by a qualified herp vet. If it dies before you can do that, have it necropsied.

There are some species of snake that have been PROVEN to have issues digesting mammalian lipids. These are long term cumulative issues that ultimately lead to a form of gastritis. They are not one and done feedings that result in an almost immediate death.

I would be hard pressed to not believe that these instances are connected directly to the food. Even if it's all a bunch of ASSumptions I will not be buying from cheap frozen distributors. Not worth the risk for our boa or ball.

Op... I hope your boa turns around. I would get to a good herp vet today.

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Originally Posted by WifeOfSlasher

I would be hard pressed to not believe that these instances are connected directly to the food. Even if it's all a bunch of ASSumptions I will not be buying from cheap frozen distributors. Not worth the risk for our boa or ball.

Op... I hope your boa turns around. I would get to a good herp vet today.

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Then you didn't read the thread thoroughly - but that was a hard thread to wade through. It took me awhile to read the salient points. A couple of people rebutted the ASSumed diagnosis fairly well, but it all got lost in the shuffle. But even before that thread ran it's course, this issue had come up several times.

Bottom line - it has nothing to do with "cheap" food - it never did. It is purported to be a link between fat content and the inability of some boas to digest it. It has nothing to do with pythons and nothing to do with the rats being "toxic" - that's a blatant misnomer.

The problem with reptile keepers in general is that we tend to not take our animals to vets when they get sick and rarely seek answers when they die. Then we tend to make ASSumptions as to the cause. Early reports of IBD in ball pythons were overblow this way - and most of these early cases were never necropsied. The ones that were later necropsied were found to be from other causes.

The situation with "toxic" rat syndrome is a perfect example. While high levels of bacteria and sepsis were purportedly found in the gut, none of these were ever positively correlated to the fat content in the rats and the "syndrome" has never been identified in pythons. In fact, pythons are often excluded from being candidates for toxic rat syndrome.

There are numerous species of snakes that have issues digesting mammalian lipids and over time, will have often fatal bouts of bacterial gastritis. What separates this actual issue with the one reported in boas is that keepers of other species have positively identified this inability to correctly digest these fats and cholesterols and the ensuing infections.

In "toxic" rat sydrome, a lot of vague assumption and anecdotal data has been drawn, ie: some locality boas, or BCCs being more prone or hypos, etc, etc. No one has ever ruled out more common and more probable causes.

Believe it or not, there are several other potential (and medically proven) causes for a snake regurging and then dying after eating one meal and none of them have to do with the fat content of the last meal. That's why that instead of spreading the myth of a parboiled rat causing this, or a disease that has not been proven to exist, keepers in general owe it to themselves and the hobby to take the required steps to correctly and accurately identify the cause of these problems.

The OP lost a ball and two IJs before the boa regurged. At this point, a vet needs to look for systemic viral and bacterial infections first. I would ASSume that a reptile vet would look at the gastric system first and look for evidence of infection there. If that was found, the vet would then determine whether there was a chronic issue going on or wheher it was a sudden onset event.

If no gastric issues are found, other avenues would then be open for exploration. The point is that the only advice at this stage should be to get the surviving animal to the vet and tested.

Herp vet, NOW.

Don't wait. Don't dawdle, don't post on the forums anymore.

Sounds like it could be IBD. I'm not just throwing that out there to scare you (well, actually, yes I am. You really need to get to a vet and find out what's going on, especially if you have friends with reptiles, or have sold/traded any recently.

By the way Ladies and Gentlemen, the supplier that has been fingered in the "toxic" rat syndrome deaths is Rodent Pro.

Not the first name that comes to most people's minds when we talk about cheap feeders - eh?