So who keeps paperwork....

....on visuals?

This year Ive had multiple people ask about paperwork on animals like pastels, cinnys, pewters... Im honestly not sure what they want. I mean, I completely understand when it's a het or if you want to show you bought it from some big name; but why would you want a piece of paper that says "yes, this is a pastel"?

Am I missing something here? Anyone ask for and keep paperwork on all their visuals? Im not talking receipts, Im talking complete paperwork (picture, genetics, breeders signature...).

:rofl:

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

:rofl:

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Apparently stupid question :(

I think the laughing was more aimed at the "awesome" people asking for the paperwork, not the question.

Not at all...just funny, and I find it odd as well. I understand the point of full genetic documentation with photo ID and such when it comes to hets...

I think it's inexperienced keepers just mimicking what they've seen or heard without really knowing what they are asking for.

Ok. Honestly I thought it was ridiculous the first time someone asked too, but after the third or forth I was starting to wonder if I had missed something. Between this and the person telling me my cinny was a normal I was starting to feel like a was losing my mind a tiny bit. Glad to know its the other people who are nuts.

I do not think it that horrible of an idea, especially to to put the parents on there. Some morphs while visual, are hard to distinguish (mystic v. phantom, lesser v. butter, etc...).

Either way, if someone is paying you hundreds or thousands of dollars for a snake, I would give them whatever paperwork they desire.

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Ok. Honestly I thought it was ridiculous the first time someone asked too, but after the third or forth I was starting to wonder if I had missed something. Between this and the person telling me my cinny was a normal I was starting to feel like a was losing my mind a tiny bit. Glad to know its the other people who are nuts.

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Yes i thought you were the same person with that post saying someone was questioning your cinny lol! Maybe you just have some bad luck with dealing with customers.
I agree with what jinx said though as far as the paperwork. I would just give them a paper with:
A pic of each of the parents listing what they are and what they weigh.
Say what the baby weighed when it was born. Each date it ate/shed. Maybe what else came out of the clutch like 1.1 normals 2.1 pastels etc.
Just my 2 cents of some quick questions I might ask as a customer...

Thats what I did when it was one of my hatchlings, but the main issue is when its an animal I didnt produce. For example, I had a spider I did not produce up for sale early last year and I lost a sale because I didnt have paperwork. Though come to think of it, if they cant tell a spider is a spider I probably shouldnt sell them one in the first place. :rolleyes:

For me at least I NEED paperwork. I live in Florida and I have a license to keep/sell snakes here in Florida. (class 3) To pass inspections I must be able to show where I got each and every one of my animals, and that the people I purchased the animal from meet certain standards. So paperwork for me is a must, for other people I'm not sure. If I didn't need it to pass inspection (when or if it happens) I wouldn't ask for it.

If you did not produce it, than I would tell them such. My comment was really for animals that you produce. But, if you know that people are going to ask for it, maybe get it from the folks that you get the animal from in the first place?

Either way, got to make the customer happy as long as the request is within reason.

I agree, paperwork for a spider is a bit much.

Im actually in Tampa and was told I only needed phone numbers and names of everyone I bought my animals from....

Besides, how would asking for paperwork from the original breeder help if you were buying the animal from me?

If you do not agree with it and are determined not to do it, then do not. Just be aware that you may lose business over it.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

If you do not agree with it and are determined not to do it, then do not. Just be aware that you may lose business over it.

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Im not sure why you think Im determined not to do it. If you read my original question I was wondering if it was a trend in the hobby.

According to the site I got my license from you must have paperwork tracing the snake to its origin, and if you are buying from someone in Florida they must have a license or else you both violated the law. (it works different with actual bussinesses though. You also must have a licience if you are selling in Florida.

From what I understood with the breeders information, it was just name and number. What other information are you getting?

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Im not sure why you think Im determined not to do it. If you read my original question I was wondering if it was a trend in the hobby.

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Just the tone I read in to it. But, I am not trying to make a implication either way, just saying.

Either way, I am not sure if it is trend since I recently got back in to BPs, but I think it is a good idea.

As for Florida, sounds like as like as they got paperwork from whoever last owned the snake, they should be good. But, I am not well versed in their laws.

I keep records of payment transactions, a signed document with a photo of the animal, and it's genetics. But that is only when dealing with people if Florida who are not actual bussinesses.

Well, it is a good thing I double checked the site. Looks like I need an address instead of a phone number.

Some people just like to keep detailed records for their pets. I recently had someone ask for sire/dam pictures for her $25 normal hatchling. IMO it doesn't take too much time and it may make a customer happy enough for a return visit.

I have never thought to ask for paperwork on visuals but now that you bring it up it may be handy to have documented from the breeder what the sex of the animal is. If that animal's sex turns out to be different then you have proof behind your story if action needed to be taken.

just my 2 cents

I don't do paperwork for Visuals unless requested, and so far it's only happened a few times.

I suppose it could be a more recent trend, but so far, other than Hets and possible Hets, not one request this year (2011).

I keep up to date photos and records such as feedings, sheds, anyrhing I feel important to the bp. I mean when I breed my male cinny fader to my pastal het pied, all pics and info will only help sell the hatchlings... Just my 2¢

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Originally Posted by mschmied

I have never thought to ask for paperwork on visuals but now that you bring it up it may be handy to have documented from the breeder what the sex of the animal is. If that animal's sex turns out to be different then you have proof behind your story if action needed to be taken.

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Another good reason.

if i was offered 2 of the exact same snakes (from 2 different breeders), no matter what morph, and one had paperwork, and one dident, id choose the one with paperwork.
just seems more profesional to me.
spooky

I try to keep records and pictures for things like sire/dam, where i got the animal from/line. Whenever I sell a snake, even if it's just a normal I give them a paper with pictures of the sire and dam, pics of the snake sold with sex and lineage info. I bought a snake from someone once and when I opened the box i found paper work like that and pictures of the snake and it's parents on cd. It was just so nice to find that without it being asked for that I started doing it to. I think it's good to keep records like that and pass them on to the snakes buyer. In other species of snake lineage is very important and some snakes have their lineage kept track of, sometimes for a few generations. I think it would be nice to do that with bp's to.

I am not a breeder but when I buy a snake I have asked for paperwork. I expect the 'code' the breeder used the hatch date, health records (feedings <what and how often> sheds any other relevant information) perhaps the dam and sire type and any other records they may have kept. I was given the 'feeding card' and the maintenance notes they kept (sheds and poops) as well as a 'birth certificate' Nothing complex but I keep meticulous records and adding information to those records can't hurt if there is a problem.

http://images51.fotki.com/v278/photo...serF001-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

I'm not huge on paperwork because all of my snakes came from well known breeders. I just kept a written record of where they came from and when I got them.

When it comes to recessives, I would only buy 100% hets from someone very reputable and I have done this. Therefore, not all of my hets came with paperwork but I don't think it's required when you're positive of what you're getting.

The truth is, anything can be forged. This is why you should buy from reputable people who are known. Not some schmo on Craigslist who can not give you any details whatsoever.

I provide laminated color photo ID sheets for all of the hets I produce, but I don't do that for visuals, or normals.
However, I do include their feeding records, which also have their lineage information on them.
Additionally, every animal I produce is listed in iHerp's lineage database, complete with photos, so if anyone uses iHerp, I can transfer the record to them, and they can print their own ID sheet (though it won't be signed).

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Originally Posted by mschmied

I have never thought to ask for paperwork on visuals but now that you bring it up it may be handy to have documented from the breeder what the sex of the animal is. If that animal's sex turns out to be different then you have proof behind your story if action needed to be taken.

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I agree, maybe they are just looking for a written sex guarantee :confused:
Genentics paperwork on visual animals seems a little redundant...

Lineage information is always useful, though. I've often wished for MUCH better lineage data for the animals I've acquired.

Lineage is important for sure, especially on subtle morphs or multi gene animals. Like I have said before, it is whatever the customer wants, does not really matter if anyone thinks it is redundant. A piece of paper for what some of us pay for these animals is not too much to ask for. Other animals automatically come with this paperwork from reputable breeders, so no reason that reptile breeders cannot do the same.

With that said, I have not gotten paperwork on any of mine, but the breeders have been up front with any lineage, birthdate or feeding info that I have asked for. I then entered that info in to my tracking for my own knowledge.

If I breed and sell in the future, I will be happy to provide whatever paperwork the customer wants.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

Lineage is important for sure, especially on subtle morphs or multi gene animals. Like I have said before, it is whatever the customer wants, does not really matter if anyone thinks it is redundant. A piece of paper for what some of us pay for these animals is not too much to ask for. Other animals automatically come with this paperwork from reputable breeders, so no reason that reptile breeders cannot do the same.

With that said, I have not gotten paperwork on any of mine, but the breeders have been up front with any lineage, birthdate or feeding info that I have asked for. I then entered that info in to my tracking for my own knowledge.

If I breed and sell in the future, I will be happy to provide whatever paperwork the customer wants.

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I do agree with that, if the customer wants it, give it to em. Shouldn't take more than few minutes for a little piece of mind. Especially for subtle morphs and multi gene animals. I meant it was rendundant for a single gene obvious morph, but like I said, if they wanted paperwork I'd give it to em :D

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A piece of paper with photos of the sire and dam would also come in handy for those looking to select for top genetic specimens of a given morph. For example, a really nice looking pastel with photographic "proof" of really nice looking parents would be worth more to me than a really nice looking pastel from mystery parents.

... Though Foschi raises a good point -- anything can be forged. :( Without a DNA-verified registry, it's still all basically just an honor code on paper.

Just ordered a butter and when it arrived it have its original card in the bag,with birthdate,feeding schedule ,sex and parents.
I was surprised,but i thought it was a good thing saves me the trouble of wondering about a few things,and i can also input the info in my data and have a full record from birth.(a complete history on your snakes can only be a good thing)
Just that liitle extra effort will make me a return customer for sure(already put a deposit on a 2012 possibl;e hatchling already :D)

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I'm not huge on paperwork because all of my snakes came from well known breeders. I just kept a written record of where they came from and when I got them.

When it comes to recessives, I would only buy 100% hets from someone very reputable and I have done this. Therefore, not all of my hets came with paperwork but I don't think it's required when you're positive of what you're getting.

The truth is, anything can be forged. This is why you should buy from reputable people who are known. Not some schmo on Craigslist who can not give you any details whatsoever.

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Although I agree that going with reputable breeders is always a safer bet, I don't agree with doing it all the time. I think it would kill the entrepreneurial spirit of this hobby and if we were all buying from the big breeders, what would be the point of breeding our own snakes and selling the offspring if no one is going to buy them?

I don't know about you but if my breeding plans take me where I really want to go and I wasn't able to sell one snake because I'm not known as a "reputable breeder" [because I haven't bred anything yet] then I would be in trouble with A LOT of mouths to feed and a lot of space taken up. And frankly, I don't have the space to house hundreds of snakes....

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, why not buy from a small breeder that has a good track record and shows actual enthusiasm and potential to become one of the big breeders one day? I would gladly buy from a small breeder with solid paperwork and a good start but hey, maybe I'm just a risk taker.

I've had to do up paperwork once for a het. Albino we sold. Meh, small thing to do, the guy was happy with it.

But 100% of the time, all of our hatchlings come with a recipe/index card that states:

Parents: Male Albino x Female het. Albino (for example)
ID # of the individual hatchling, and for my own quick reference, I highlight the ID #'s with pink for female and blue for male.
-C01. 2012.16.M (Corn clutch #1 of the year 2012, baby #16 of that clutch, Male)
-BP02. 2009.04.F (Ball Python clutch #2 of the year 2009, baby #4 of that clutch, Female)
Date range of when the clutch hatched (because sometimes I don't separate them as soon as they're out of the egg, so perhaps they hatched over a few day period)
Weight at birth, periodic weights as they grow
Feeding records (I use a date stamp each day the eat)
Shedding Records (Also date-stamped)
And there will be little notes beside the feeding records of when the snake moved up. P for ate a pinkie, F for a fuzzie, H for hopper, etc.

The little cards go home with every baby we sell.

It's a ton of information about each snake on the record cards, it makes the buyers happy to know what's going on, and it makes my life easier to see patterns of whose eating really well, whose not eating, whose expected to shed in the next little while, etc.

I provide paperwork on every snake that I produce, even normals. The only exception is if I wholesale them.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I provide paperwork on every snake that I produce, even normals. The only exception is if I wholesale them.

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x2
I already have paperwork templates set aside for when I do start producing. It really just seems like an overall good business practice to me and should be a standard of the industry. But maybe I'm just being anal-retentive? :psychotic