Symptoms and care after URI?

Hey there. I recently had a bit of an URI epidemic go through all of my sub-adult and adult ball pythons within the last few months. They were all diagnosed by a wonderful vet to have a similar problem; all of them had an over abundance of naturally occurring bacteria which began to run rampant after a lowered immunity due to exposure to cedar bedding that was mixed in with the cypress bedding (never using cypress again). Needles to say, most if not all of the snakes are feeling better. My cinnamon (who has a bad burn scar due to his previous owner) is still struggling with it.

However, all of my balls still have popping in their mouths when they breath and are rather drooly. Its not thick like the mucus what was occurring during infection, but it still is rather gooey and concerning. I have had the heat raised for a while (as I have been recommended to do by users/breeders/vets) as well as occasional soaks for all of them in warm water (also recommended by vet/breeders). They are all eating well, except fro my albino male who had it the worst and the cinnamon who is still struggling but they eat every other week or so. the albino is even much more active than he was when I first got him.

Is this a residual symptom that takes time to go away? Is it still infectious? What can I do to reduce the drool/saliva/mucus (it seems to make breathing less comfortable). Any thoughts? All are welcome. =3

... Help...?

Are they on antibiotics?

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Originally Posted by heathers*bps

Are they on antibiotics?

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They had a full round of antibiotics, had a second culture done, and were returned healthy. =S

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

Hey there. I recently had a bit of an URI epidemic go through all of my sub-adult and adult ball pythons within the last few months. They were all diagnosed by a wonderful vet to have a similar problem; all of them had an over abundance of naturally occurring bacteria which began to run rampant after a lowered immunity due to exposure to cedar bedding that was mixed in with the cypress bedding (never using cypress again). Needles to say, most if not all of the snakes are feeling better. My cinnamon (who has a bad burn scar due to his previous owner) is still struggling with it.

However, all of my balls still have popping in their mouths when they breath and are rather drooly. Its not thick like the mucus what was occurring during infection, but it still is rather gooey and concerning. I have had the heat raised for a while (as I have been recommended to do by users/breeders/vets) as well as occasional soaks for all of them in warm water (also recommended by vet/breeders). They are all eating well, except fro my albino male who had it the worst and the cinnamon who is still struggling but they eat every other week or so. the albino is even much more active than he was when I first got him.

Is this a residual symptom that takes time to go away? Is it still infectious? What can I do to reduce the drool/saliva/mucus (it seems to make breathing less comfortable). Any thoughts? All are welcome. =3

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Did your vet culture the infection?

How did the vet know it was a naturally occurring bacteria?

How did the vet pin point the cause on the bedding?

What was the treatment? - Type of antibiotic and frequency.

Your snakes need to go back to the vet. The infection needs to be cultured and treated correctly. If the first vet did not do this, then you need to find a vet that will treat your snakes correctly.

The other thing you need to do is stop soaking them. Regardless of whether your snakes are sick or well, soaking is something that does nothing but induce stress in them. Stress is something they don't need right now.

If your current vet recommended soaking your snakes as help with an RI, I would advise that you find another qualified reptile vet immediately. Frankly, that was rotten advice.

Bottom line - your snakes still have an infection. They need to go to a vet that will diagnose the bacteria responsible. They need to not be soaked. They need proper diagnosis and treatment as soon as possible.

It sounds like they need another round of antibiotics. And yes stop soaking them.

Skiploder hit it on the head.

Having had a snake just get over an RI myself, I would recommend that once they are all "cured" of the RIs and not showng any symptoms I would recommend checking inside their mouths to make sure that the RIs are actually gone. I have been checking my girl once a week after her 30 day treatment was up to make sure it's actually gone and the symptons arn't just as severe to be noticable. If they are reoccuring RIs it's best to catch them from the get go instead of letting them get bad again since that's when they're harder to treat.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Did your vet culture the infection?

How did the vet know it was a naturally occurring bacteria?

How did the vet pin point the cause on the bedding?

What was the treatment? - Type of antibiotic and frequency.

Your snakes need to go back to the vet. The infection needs to be cultured and treated correctly. If the first vet did not do this, then you need to find a vet that will treat your snakes correctly.

The other thing you need to do is stop soaking them. Regardless of whether your snakes are sick or well, soaking is something that does nothing but induce stress in them. Stress is something they don't need right now.

If your current vet recommended soaking your snakes as help with an RI, I would advise that you find another qualified reptile vet immediately. Frankly, that was rotten advice.

Bottom line - your snakes still have an infection. They need to go to a vet that will diagnose the bacteria responsible. They need to not be soaked. They need proper diagnosis and treatment as soon as possible.

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First, I would like to thank you for your time in your reply. That was thoughtful.

However, the way in which you replied came off as rude. If that was not your intent, then please disregard my previous statement.

As for the cultures, yes, I got cultures on every single one of my ball pythons in order to make sure that they would be getting the correct antibiotic and the correct treatment. There was no way that the vet would be able to give the correct treatment if not for the culture, just like a doctor.

The cultures showed on each and over abundance of naturally occurring bacteria just as a culture would fr a urinary tract infection or yeast infection in humans. Ecoli and yeast are both naturally occurring bacteria in humans which can run rampant if altered by an outside anomaly, such as antibiotics in humans or improper/poisonous substrate such as cedar. My ball pythons never had a problem until I switched them to the cypress, in which I did find traces of cedar.

As for the antibiotics, each of my ball pythons had to go back to the vet twice for a second treatment and a second round of two antibiotics each. After which they were cultured again and sent home with a clean bill of health. At the moment I cannot remember the names of the antibiotics.

As for the soaking, (though you will probably find this to be a cardinal sin) I have been soaking these ball pythons since they were hatchlings at least once a month to assist with shedding and to get them used to the soaks. This would ensure that there is no undue stress during the time of shedding which would also be bad for them. And it worked. None of my balls pythons ball anymore, I have never had one hiss at me and I have never once had one puff at me. Not to mention the reason the soaking was suggested to me in particular was because the mucus that was in their mouths was drying in their noses and mouths, making it harder for them to breath. Trying to take teasers or tongs to pull it out was just hurting them.

For the next three days after I soak my animals, they brighten, they seem healthier and they can breath.

Needless to say, you didn't answer my questions; I simply wished to know what the residual symptoms of an URI would be. Aside from my cinnamon, who is slowly getting better, they are all breathing better aside from the occasional drooling and heavy breathing.

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

Skiploder hit it on the head.

Having had a snake just get over an RI myself, I would recommend that once they are all "cured" of the RIs and not showng any symptoms I would recommend checking inside their mouths to make sure that the RIs are actually gone. I have been checking my girl once a week after her 30 day treatment was up to make sure it's actually gone and the symptons arn't just as severe to be noticable. If they are reoccuring RIs it's best to catch them from the get go instead of letting them get bad again since that's when they're harder to treat.

Good luck.

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Thank you very much. =3

As for any residual effects, did your animal continue to drool for a while? All I really wanted advice on was residual effects.

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

Thank you very much. =3

As for any residual effects, did your animal continue to drool for a while? All I really wanted advice on was residual effects.

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If anything it looked like she had some mucus that was in the process of drying up, but not much if any at all and it didn't stay there long.

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Originally Posted by devildog_dk

If anything it looked like she had some mucus that was in the process of drying up, but not much if any at all.

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Okay. For the most part, the only one that is still drooling heavily is my albino, who had it the longest. The other just have heaving breathing and wet but clear saliva.

They are all eating fine, though, which would that also be a sure sign of and overly stressed or sick animal?

I only ask all of these questions because my balls aren't just breeders to me... In fact when my Isabelle who was my first got sick I was devastated...

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

Thank you very much. =3

As for any residual effects, did your animal continue to drool for a while? All I really wanted advice on was residual effects.

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She actually never drooled or had bubbles visible on the outside of her mouth, hers was a very mild RI that I caught in the very early stages (I would assume I caught it within the first couple days or so of her coming down with it).

All she had was the thick mucus sticky looking stuff in the back of her throat with bubbles around her trachea (I can shoot you over a photo that I took of the inside of her mouth if you'd like to see what a mild RI looks like if you PM me).

Since RIs won't clear up overnight (took a full 30 days to get my poor girl right again) I'd say to just check on them after they appear to be rid of the RI to make sure they actually kicked it.

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

First, I would like to thank you for your time in your reply. That was thoughtful.

However, the way in which you replied came off as rude. If that was not your intent, then please disregard my previous statement.

As for the cultures, yes, I got cultures on every single one of my ball pythons in order to make sure that they would be getting the correct antibiotic and the correct treatment. There was no way that the vet would be able to give the correct treatment if not for the culture, just like a doctor.

The cultures showed on each and over abundance of naturally occurring bacteria just as a culture would fr a urinary tract infection or yeast infection in humans. Ecoli and yeast are both naturally occurring bacteria in humans which can run rampant if altered by an outside anomaly, such as antibiotics in humans or improper/poisonous substrate such as cedar. My ball pythons never had a problem until I switched them to the cypress, in which I did find traces of cedar.

As for the antibiotics, each of my ball pythons had to go back to the vet twice for a second treatment and a second round of two antibiotics each. After which they were cultured again and sent home with a clean bill of health. At the moment I cannot remember the names of the antibiotics.

As for the soaking, (though you will probably find this to be a cardinal sin) I have been soaking these ball pythons since they were hatchlings at least once a month to assist with shedding and to get them used to the soaks. This would ensure that there is no undue stress during the time of shedding which would also be bad for them. And it worked. None of my balls pythons ball anymore, I have never had one hiss at me and I have never once had one puff at me. Not to mention the reason the soaking was suggested to me in particular was because the mucus that was in their mouths was drying in their noses and mouths, making it harder for them to breath. Trying to take teasers or tongs to pull it out was just hurting them.

For the next three days after I soak my animals, they brighten, they seem healthier and they can breath.

Needless to say, you didn't answer my questions; I simply wished to know what the residual symptoms of an URI would be. Aside from my cinnamon, who is slowly getting better, they are all breathing better aside from the occasional drooling and heavy breathing.

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Skiploder was not being rude. He was just stating facts. He knows his information very well and I for one trust his knowledge.

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

Okay. For the most part, the only one that is still drooling heavily is my albino, who had it the longest. The other just have heaving breathing and wet but clear saliva.

They are all eating fine, though, which would that also be a sure sign of and overly stressed or sick animal?

I only ask all of these questions because my balls aren't just breeders to me... In fact when my Isabelle who was my first got sick I was devastated...

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How many days exactly we're they on antibiotics? Cause they shouldn't look too wet if they're actually getting over the infection. If you can get some pics of their mouths and post them here.

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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr

Skiploder was not being rude. He was just stating facts. He knows his information very well and I for one trust his knowledge.

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I understand. =3 I just wished to state my piece. I have a number of high end breeder sources that I talk to on a daily basis that have given me suggestions in opposition to his statements, which is why I stated everything I did.

Thank you though. =3

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Originally Posted by devildog_dk

How many days exactly we're they on antibiotics? Cause they shouldn't look too wet if they're actually getting over the infection. If you can get some pics of their mouths and post them here.

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Opening their mouths is the only thing that stresses them, but I will try to get some up tomorrow when I can get some actually visible picture. lol The lighting is too bad here at night to get a clear image.

Most were on treatments every two days for three weeks or until improvement.

They weren't overly wet, but more so than before they got sick.

Doesn't sound like they are well to me. I think I would try another vet just to be safe.

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

I understand. =3 I just wished to state my piece. I have a number of high end breeder sources that I talk to on a daily basis that have given me suggestions in opposition to his statements, which is why I stated everything I did.

Thank you though. =3

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On your previous thread - the one in which you announced that your collection was being hit with the RI - both Deborah and Mpkeelee advised you to discontinue the baths immediately. That was the correct advice.

Any breeder, be they high end, low end or otherwise, who recommends bathing or soaks as part of the recuperative regimen for an RI, should be ignored. It is not only bad advice, but dangerous advice. You need to cease those soaks immediately. If any "high end" breeder thinks I'm full of crap on this issue, I would welcome the opportunity for them to sign on here and debate me directly in OT.

Better yet, why not name those high end experts on this thread so that someone else does not fall victim to this horrible advice? I cannot stress enough how incredibly dangerous and irresponsible these soaks are.

Now with regards to your vet - most respiratory infections are caused by an over abundance of common bacteria.

The reason why a snake succumbs to common environmental bacteria is due to a compromised immune system. A snake's immune system becomes chronically compromised when they are either stressed due to poor environmental conditions or due to an underlying pathogen - like a virus.

Flatly put, if you accept that your vet was correct in his diagnosis and there is no underlying pathogen, then there are stressors that are compromising the health of your animals (like soaking them). You can either review your husbandry practices or your can take the animal back to the vet, and see if the vet is on the ball enough to test for something systemic or if the vet asks you some hard questions about how you are keeping your animals.

Your vet was quick to finger the substrate as the cause. Now that you have replaced the substrate, it can be safely eliminated as the reason for the problem.

When you stated that your vet found three culprit bacteria, a ton of questions came to mind. How did the vet conclude that each of these bacteria was overabundant? Are each of these bacteria capable of causing an RI? Did the vet share with you the name of each bacteria and why the antibiotic was being prescribed?

Whichever way you decide to go, there are no residual symptoms associated with an RI. No amount of drool or chronically labored breathing is normal. My advice remains - cease the soaks immediately and get your animals back to a vet immediately.

1) Keeping the snakes well hydrated is good, but you shouldn't have to soak them for that--keep cage humidity high, and provide fresh drinking water. Keep temperatures about 5 degrees above normal. (Some recommend to lower humidity--this is incorrect, as it leads to dehydration and thickens the mucous. It makes it appear that there is less mucous, but actually it's just lower in volume because it's thicker--thinner mucous is easier to expel).

2) There should not be any residual symptoms after a RI has been successfully treated.

3) Are you sure that this was EVER a bacterial problem, or issue related to the bedding? How did you determine there was cedar in the cypress bedding? Have you considered that this may be a viral infection, and the bacteria were just opportunistic and causing a secondary infection? Usually, one or two animals might get an RI, if some stressing event or cold happens--not half the collection. That makes it sound like something contagious, and the failure of the vet to identify a single culprit...well, maybe the bacteria are innocent.

4) To help thin the mucous, you can nebulize the snakes using plain water. Funny as it sounds, hang them upside down for a moment, then wipe up. Snakes have no diaphragm, so can't cough, and tend to sit with their head elevated when they have trouble breathing. By turning them head down, they will often expel some mucous, and then breathe easier afterward. There's a balance between adding stress and offering treatment. Don't handle or mess with them excessively--try to keep it to once or twice a day, at most, for handling, and once a day for something like nebulizing, unless the vet directs otherwise and gives meds to put in the nebulizing solution.
(You may be able to rent a nebulizer, if you don't have one).
You can cut a hole in a bin, and put the nebulizer tube through the hole, so the tub fills with the mist, to do a nebulizer treatment.

To all who have responded, none of you have answered my questions. I am going to ignore anything anyone has to say on this matter aside from anyone who wants to answer this question:

Do ball pythons or any animals for that matter have any residual side effects after having been caught up in an epidemic because all of my animals are back to acting as they were before they were sick, eating properly and are looking great in exception of the one, who I already planned on taking back.

As for a compromised immune system, can't a poisonous bedding also be the cause? After I took them off the cypress is when they began to show improvement.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

2) There should not be any residual symptoms after a RI has been successfully treated.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Whichever way you decide to go, there are no residual symptoms associated with an RI. No amount of drool or chronically labored breathing is normal. My advice remains - cease the soaks immediately and get your animals back to a vet immediately.

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

To all who have responded, none of you have answered my questions. I am going to ignore anything anyone has to say on this matter aside from anyone who wants to answer this question:

Do ball pythons or any animals for that matter have any residual side effects after having been caught up in an epidemic because all of my animals are back to acting as they were before they were sick, eating properly and are looking great in exception of the one, who I already planned on taking back.

As for a compromised immune system, can't a poisonous bedding also be the cause? After I took them off the cypress is when they began to show improvement.

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Then why are they still sick? You got rid of the bedding - right?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

1) Keeping the snakes well hydrated is good, but you shouldn't have to soak them for that--keep cage humidity high, and provide fresh drinking water. Keep temperatures about 5 degrees above normal. (Some recommend to lower humidity--this is incorrect, as it leads to dehydration and thickens the mucous. It makes it appear that there is less mucous, but actually it's just lower in volume because it's thicker--thinner mucous is easier to expel).

2) There should not be any residual symptoms after a RI has been successfully treated.

3) Are you sure that this was EVER a bacterial problem, or issue related to the bedding? How did you determine there was cedar in the cypress bedding? Have you considered that this may be a viral infection, and the bacteria were just opportunistic and causing a secondary infection? Usually, one or two animals might get an RI, if some stressing event or cold happens--not half the collection. That makes it sound like something contagious, and the failure of the vet to identify a single culprit...well, maybe the bacteria are innocent.

4) To help thin the mucous, you can nebulize the snakes using plain water. Funny as it sounds, hang them upside down for a moment, then wipe up. Snakes have no diaphragm, so can't cough, and tend to sit with their head elevated when they have trouble breathing. By turning them head down, they will often expel some mucous, and then breathe easier afterward. There's a balance between adding stress and offering treatment. Don't handle or mess with them excessively--try to keep it to once or twice a day, at most, for handling, and once a day for something like nebulizing, unless the vet directs otherwise and gives meds to put in the nebulizing solution.
(You may be able to rent a nebulizer, if you don't have one).
You can cut a hole in a bin, and put the nebulizer tube through the hole, so the tub fills with the mist, to do a nebulizer treatment.

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I believe that a viral infection may have compromised them, but it wasn't a viral infection that was found in the cultures. So that may have indeed been an issue, but it wasn't was was found that needed to be treated overall. Perhaps it was a minor viral infection that lowered the immune system long enough for the bacteria to run a muck and the viral problem was treated with the high heat and humidity that was suggested to me?

but as for the bedding, it wasn't until I attempted to use cypress bedding that my animals got sick. I found the cedar in the bedding myself a little while after and immediately switched them. Since I switched them, they all improved aside from the cinnamon who already have a compromised immune system due to the process of healing from the large burn scare on his back.

But I never would have thought of that. =3 I will try to hold them upside down the next time I take him out.

Thank you for being kind, btw. I wasn't looking for shoot downs, just help. =3

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Then why are they still sick? You got rid of the bedding - right?

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They are all slowly improving. As all creatures, including humans and reptiles do. Have I not already stated this?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

1) Keeping the snakes well hydrated is good, but you shouldn't have to soak them for that--keep cage humidity high, and provide fresh drinking water. Keep temperatures about 5 degrees above normal. (Some recommend to lower humidity--this is incorrect, as it leads to dehydration and thickens the mucous. It makes it appear that there is less mucous, but actually it's just lower in volume because it's thicker--thinner mucous is easier to expel).

2) There should not be any residual symptoms after a RI has been successfully treated.

3) Are you sure that this was EVER a bacterial problem, or issue related to the bedding? How did you determine there was cedar in the cypress bedding? Have you considered that this may be a viral infection, and the bacteria were just opportunistic and causing a secondary infection? Usually, one or two animals might get an RI, if some stressing event or cold happens--not half the collection. That makes it sound like something contagious, and the failure of the vet to identify a single culprit...well, maybe the bacteria are innocent.

4) To help thin the mucous, you can nebulize the snakes using plain water. Funny as it sounds, hang them upside down for a moment, then wipe up. Snakes have no diaphragm, so can't cough, and tend to sit with their head elevated when they have trouble breathing. By turning them head down, they will often expel some mucous, and then breathe easier afterward. There's a balance between adding stress and offering treatment. Don't handle or mess with them excessively--try to keep it to once or twice a day, at most, for handling, and once a day for something like nebulizing, unless the vet directs otherwise and gives meds to put in the nebulizing solution.
(You may be able to rent a nebulizer, if you don't have one).
You can cut a hole in a bin, and put the nebulizer tube through the hole, so the tub fills with the mist, to do a nebulizer treatment.

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

They are all slowly improving. As all creatures, including humans and reptiles do. Have I not already stated this?

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If they are done with the course of antibiotics, then there should be no symptoms. Two people have previously told you this.

BTW, you cannot culture for a virus. Viruses do not go away with high heat and humidity. RIs that have been properly diagnosed and treated do not hang on for over 12 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If they are done with the course of antibiotics, then there should be no symptoms. Two people have previously told you this.

BTW, you cannot culture for a virus. Viruses do not go away with high heat and humidity. RIs that have been properly diagnosed and treated do not hang on for over 12 weeks.

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If not only skip or multiple people are giving you advice that you asked for, take it. I had to go to three vets before I finally got one that gave me a correct medication and everything. Yes. It sucks, but your snakes should be more important then advice. You can't always believe everything a breeder or a vet tells you. But you should also have the respect to not disrespect someone who is taking there time to help you.

If Skip gives you advice on a RI, your best bet is to take it, even if it doesn't match up. I was told to soak my snake EVERY DAY and wash out its mouth.... a vet should NEVER tell you that for a RI. After almost 4 months my balls are starting to improve with there RI's I took the advice from here and mixed three different vets advice.

You can't always trust what you hear, but you still shouldn't disrespect someone who has ALOT more experience in the field then you... yes we're not vets, but we all have experiences that can help you improve you husbandary and give You advice about how to proceed with your vets.

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Originally Posted by zeion97

If not only skip or multiple people are giving you advice that you asked for, take it. I had to go to three vets before I finally got one that gave me a correct medication and everything. Yes. It sucks, but your snakes should be more important then advice. You can't always believe everything a breeder or a vet tells you. But you should also have the respect to not disrespect someone who is taking there time to help you.

If Skip gives you advice on a RI, your best bet is to take it, even if it doesn't match up. I was told to soak my snake EVERY DAY and wash out its mouth.... a vet should NEVER tell you that for a RI. After almost 4 months my balls are starting to improve with there RI's I took the advice from here and mixed three different vets advice.

You can't always trust what you hear, but you still shouldn't disrespect someone who has ALOT more experience in the field then you... yes we're not vets, but we all have experiences that can help you improve you husbandary and give You advice about how to proceed with your vets.

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I am not trying to disrespect anyone. I am simply looking for answers and asking continuous questions because what has been told to be by too many people doesn't match up. That's all.

And I have been trying to be a cordial as I can to someone who has been insulting my husbandry and my knowledge as well. I went to school for be a vet tech for a few years and understand how to read and diagnose cultures myself, though I never works on reptiles.

Either way, I appreciate that you are coming to his defense. That shows humanity that not many people have these days.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If they are done with the course of antibiotics, then there should be no symptoms. Two people have previously told you this.

BTW, you cannot culture for a virus. Viruses do not go away with high heat and humidity. RIs that have been properly diagnosed and treated do not hang on for over 12 weeks.

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It has only been a month since I brought them home, which is four weeks.

And perhaps I should have stated it this way; I am calling this problem a URI because they were showing symptoms of an RI but were treated for something different which fixed the problem. It was a medical anomaly which is common.

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Originally Posted by H_Kris_H

It has only been a month since I brought them home, which is four weeks.

And perhaps I should have stated it this way; I am calling this problem a URI because they were showing symptoms of an RI but were treated for something different which fixed the problem. It was a medical anomaly which is common.

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The post in which you reported the problem was September 18 of this year. That same date you reported that the snakes were home. You also stated that at least one of your animals had been fighting this months before the September post.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...13#post1653813

I am now honestly confused. You stated that the vet cultured the bacteria and treated accordingly. Now you are saying that it wasn't an RI.:confused:

This is not a medical anomaly. As Donna and others have stated, it is one of two things. An RI in which the causative bacteria was incorrectly diagnosed and treated or something else like a virus.

The fact that antibiotic treatment alleviated the symptoms for a period of time does nothing but support that. In many cases where the culture is not performed or is incorrect, treatment with a less effective antibiotic results in a temporary alleviation of symptoms which ultimately return once therapy is stopped.

Same with a virus. The RI is the result of stress from the virus which in turn causes a drop in the effectiveness of the immune system. The antibiotic treats the symptoms but does nothing to deal with the virus.

You are reading rudeness and judgement where there are none (which is extremely telling in a way). You need to seriously stop being so defensive and start listening to what several people are trying to tell you. If we take the timeline in your prior thread seriously, you have been dealing with an issue in your collection "months" before September of this year. While your vet may be wonderful and nice, here you are months later with a group of symptomatic snakes.

As you yourself stated, you had an epidemic in your collection. If it makes you feel better by blaming it on the substrate - fine. If it makes you feel better by writing off my attempts to help you as rude - fine. However, you got rid of the substrate and you still have many, if not all of your snakes showing signs of respiratory distress. You have paid good money for treatment by a professional that has not cured the problem.

For years I imported animals that came stressed, laden with parasites and worse. I probably had to go through a half a dozen self proclaimed reptile vets (some of which, by the way were delightful people) and thousands of dollars before I found one who knew her a$$ from a hole in the ground. As Zeion stated, it took him three tries to find a vet that could deal with a simple RI. Stop focusing on me and what you think I'm subliminally intimating about your level of expertise and focus on how your vet has failed you.

My honest advice to you is to stop trying to read a tone in my response and find another vet who can put and end to whatever your snakes are going through.