Are you kidding me?!?! (Rant Warning)

Ok so I took my wife and kids out to a few pet stores in the Tulsa area to see what herps they had, and to teach and show the kids how awesome all the reptiles are. Anyways everything was going well, untill... We walked into the Southern Ag store on 71st & Sheridain, did the normal walk through checkin out fish and other animals. We then come to the herp section, nice selection, HOWEVER ! Every damned cage was dirty, most of the humidity was way low, no idea what the temps were and we could tell the poor guys wanted out just to seek better conditions... Now this upset me and I raised a little cain but nothing pissed me off more then this next ordeal, ( be prepaired to get angry ) my wife noticed a tank with 1 sub adult normal bp, 4 '11 baby bps, one looked like a nice green toned pastal, one looked almost cinny and the other was a nice reduced normal, now before I get to the heart breaker they also had a sweet lookin orangy/albino morph burm in with them... Now mind you the tanks were filthy, but I was never going to expect this, the fourth lil bp got handed to me and the idiot that handed him to me said, oh hes shedding, not thinking anything of a shed strike I grabbed the lil guy and immediatly noticed this poor bp was NOT in shed, this guy had one of the worst cases of scale rot I have ever seen... Realizing this I went off on the guy, (nowhere near as hard as I should have ) and made him take the snake back, I immediatly went to the restroom washed my hands clear to elbow amd returned to see this idiot still holding the sick baby and putting the others back into the dirty tank... I told him that they need to keep the bps all seperated and have them all checked out. I also informed him to clean the damn tanks and set the humidity amd temps right. Now to make things worse my wife in the middle of my giving the guy an ear full pointed out to me the bp with scale rot (still beimg help by idiot boy) was dripping slime from its mouth and kept opening its mouth trying to breath. Now we all know what those symthoms mean RI !! I desided that no matter how hard I tried to pound it into this guys head that he needed to either take care of the issue or bring me another butt to chew, I figured I wasn't going to get the responce I wanted so we left the store and I will NEVER go back into any of that companies stores. Now, sorry for the long winded rant but the part that angers me the most is that store has an IN STORE VET CLINIC... Really??!! How the heck can a certified and licenced vet not do checks on all the animals?? Anyways i'm sorry again about this post but I had to vent or a company head was gonna roll... Please feel free to add if you have anything, or have a horror story of your own.

That's horrible but not terribly surprising. :mad:

wow I cant believe it was so bad:mad:

Yeah I have done rescuse where the animals wernt as bad as this lil'guy... I seriously am thinkin about calling the aspca and anyone elce that may help and have the place inspected and fined for neglect of animals... I'm nowhere near done...

I haven't ever seen conditions THAT terrible! God, that's horrible! Makes me sick to my stomach to think of a snake suffering that much.

But, just to add another pet store horror story (of a much smaller caliber), I'll just go ahead and post what I was gonna rant about in another thread here.

I went back to the petstore where I normally buy my feeders yesterday. As is a habit of mine, I stop to check out all of the herps that the guy has. So, I glance in the tank where there are 3 '11 baby normals, one being the absolutely beautifully colored baby I had looked at a little over a week ago and considered bringing home. Man, am I glad I DIDN'T! The baby I had adored had a huge dent in his eye and was laying limp in the back, twitching. I got the key from the owner and snatched him up to see if he was still alive and he was literally CRAWLING with MITES! They were EVERYWHERE! And his siblings were too. I immediately told the guy about it, and he said he had been treating them for mites for a week with some mite spray. But I saw them last week and didn't see any! So this is getting WAY out of hand, very quickly if he is in fact treating them. So I put the little guy in some water to soak, hoping to help with his dehydration and to get some of the mites off, and told the owner of the store very pointedly that he needed to get some PAM ASAP! And that he should be soaking them everyday, and should move them away from the rest of his healthy animals. I just really hope he does, and will probably never buy a snake from him after this.

Granted, they came like that from the breeder apparently, so it's not entirely his fault. But, he needs to being doing more for them IMO. I was so bothered by the sight. I had never seen mites in person prior to that. :/

You're better off going to a nice reptile show if you have one near you, instead of going to a pet store. :/ unfortunately, most pet stores have no idea how to care about reptiles or what signs they show when they are sick.

I'm sorry you had to see this and i'm sorry the animals are suffering. Your best bet may be to call animal control or something else to see if they can get the animals removed or something.

Yeah i'm not gonna stop untill all the animals are out of that store, the lil sick one is probably so far gone he just needs to be put down,:( the rest of them need to be treated and find better owners... That store is going to regret me walkin through the door..

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

You're better off going to a nice reptile show if you have one near you, instead of going to a pet store. :/ unfortunately, most pet stores have no idea how to care about reptiles or what signs they show when they are sick.

I'm sorry you had to see this and i'm sorry the animals are suffering. Your best bet may be to call animal control or something else to see if they can get the animals removed or something.

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Yeah I just got my cinny fader male from the Tulsa show 2 weeks ago, I just like to go to the pet shops cuz they like to put morphs in as normals... Thats how I got my pastal het pied female...lol

It always makes me angry when I hear these stories. Most of the major pet stores in my area do not hire based on animal experience but rather on retail experience. To me that shows the mentality of the corporation. Mass produce and sell sell sell. Who cares if the animals suffer. Well I'm all for calling the ASPCA on irisponsible pet stores. It wont stop unless we take responsablity and do our part.

It's a sad fact indeed, a lot of people and stores don't know or care about taking good care of the animals they have. Such is the nature of business: make money and stock loss the things that can't. I run my own business, so I know first hand that there is no room for feelings or emotions, as money is the first priority. I just hate to see people who have living things relying on them, due to the responsibility that they chose to take on, neglect them because of the need for monetary gain. This is especially true for small businesses: in order to save money, they don't take good care of their animals...At my local Petsmart, there are people dedicated and hired specifically for exotics, amphibians, etc etc. At my local "hole in the wall" pet store, however, the animals all look sickly and malnourished. Such neglect is unforgivable, but in a business aspect, unavoidable.

I am definitely for calling ASPCA on that store. If they can't take the responsibility to take care of their revenue-gaining merchandise, they don't need to be in business.

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Originally Posted by enchantress62

It always makes me angry when I hear these stories. Most of the major pet stores in my area do not hire based on animal experience but rather on retail experience. To me that shows the mentality of the corporation. Mass produce and sell sell sell. Who cares if the animals suffer. Well I'm all for calling the ASPCA on irisponsible pet stores. It wont stop unless we take responsablity and do our part.

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Messed up part is I have 10yrs retail exp. And within 6mons I have learned a huge amount on herps. They wont even let me volenteer...lol

Means they changed managers or the person in charge of the reptile department. I go to that store and have never seen the conditions you describe. Considering this is a locally owned chain store, I suggest you contact the owners.

Wow.....at petco last week I was actually looking at the mice and noticed one was twitching and trying to breathe....I told one of the employees and hes like oh and took it out and then said Ill just feed it to the sick snake in the back....hmmmm I wonder why hes sick...your feeding him sick and dying animals.....pet stores are the worst!!!

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Means they changed managers or the person in charge of the reptile department. I go to that store and have never seen the conditions you describe. Considering this is a locally owned chain store, I suggest you contact the owners.

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You live in tulsa area? Please go check out the herps there and tell me what you think... Its sad that they let it get that bad. I mean its bad when your handed a snake with mites or in a deep shed and bites due to people being ignorant, but scale rot and dripping slime from the mouth are both things even a noob thats never even seen a snake would go "um, somethings wrong here". The lil'guys belly was so ragged it was like someone ran him over a cheese grater, it was pinkish brown and splitting the belly atleast 1/3of his body... It was sickining and sad. :(

As I said. That's something that is unusual for them. Anytime I've been in their stores, everything was fine, something is usually being cleaned. Be it the pocket pets, fish tanks, or the reptiles. Half the time there's signs up saying "Hi, I just arrived at the store and I'm not for sale right now". Their animals come from a local breeder, so it quite possibly could have been an issue there. However, I'm guessing that they changed caretakers with the reptile department.

No matter the reason they need to be held accountable. Here's a thought. Go back with a camera and when asked what you are doing say, "I just thought the ASPCA should see what a fine job this store is doing with it's snakes!" Garantied to get a responce. Lol

ASPCA won't do anything. Personal experience. Reported a mom & pop pet store that consistently had reptiles without water, in dirty enclosures, stuck shed, dead animals on display, etc, and nothing was ever done.

stand on the corner for one day, not really near the store, but on the street corner, with a sign protesting them and saying they have sick animals. Make sure they see you first. lol

I'd keep asking to talk to a higher up ...and i'd also ask the vet clinic in there if an employee would come over, follow you over to the tanks, and give you their "opinion" on the animals. I mean ask for someone high up, and tell them they NEED to see the conditions.
Probably won't work.

Better business beaureu, or online websites like yelp...people actually look at those. In fact, do a yelp comment, and then PRINT IT, and tape it to the door and just walk out. Tape a copy to the snake tank, and THEN put one on the door as you walk out *lol*

At least the'd SEE it, and it might illicit a response. Do they have a facebook page, or yellowpage ad, or anything on the internet? Only a hit in the pocketbook is going to touch them.

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Originally Posted by crazyj83

that store has an IN STORE VET CLINIC...

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If I'm not mistaken, those in-store vet clinics are independant veterinarians who lease the space from the store. I don't think that they treat store animals, unless the store pays them to, but it might be worth a shot to try mentioning it to them and see if there is anything they can do, if at least, talking to the store manager about improving conditions.

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

If I'm not mistaken, those in-store vet clinics are independant veterinarians who lease the space from the store. I don't think that they treat store animals, unless the store pays them to, but it might be worth a shot to try mentioning it to them and see if there is anything they can do, if at least, talking to the store manager about improving conditions.

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They don't, they simply lease the spot from the store. I know our petsmar gets a discount for employees, but they won't see the animals. (Cat and dog vet only) so there's little to work on there. If this store leases to a reptile vet then they may be able to get a discount, but remember, in the end it's up to the vet...

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Originally Posted by Raptor

ASPCA won't do anything. Personal experience. Reported a mom & pop pet store that consistently had reptiles without water, in dirty enclosures, stuck shed, dead animals on display, etc, and nothing was ever done.

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Reptiles get no rights, it's degrading. You say a kitten Is dying And You get raided by the FBI, You say a Burmese python is being held in inhuman conditions And the officers have another round of drinks..

Dramatization yes, but you see my point. ;) a local store has been shut down 3 times for animal cruelty and EVERY time gets around it.. never once has it been for housing reptiles horribly but birds or ferrets or rabbits.

If we expect anything to change we need someone to come into power who understanding reptiles as a whole And does some good thinga for them instead of trying to ban them..

I've contacted the local media/news stations and Fox23 is suposed to be going in and investigating the store. The investigation team lead told me they will send in an expert in reptiles amd get feedback from them, then if need be they will submit the issue to the proper authorities and go from there... I hope that atleast the embarrasment to the owners and bad publicity to the compamy will make them clean up their act and either learn more to properly care for animals or just stop selling them period. I'll keep everyone posted on the find I amd so on.

..I honestly hope that you haven't messed things up for all of us. Considering what has gone on, it's generally not the best idea to get the media involved. I would not be surprised if they blow things out of proportion and their "expert" isn't one at all.

Like I've said repeatedly, yet no one has listened, this is the first time that this has happened. I have never seen the conditions that you claim. Frankly, it would have been smarter to go to the manager.

I just hope that you don't get anti-exotic pet legislation rolling in Oklahoma.

I honestly hope that you haven't messed things up for all of us. Considering what has gone on, it's generally not the best idea to get the media involved. I would not be surprised if they blow things out of proportion and their "expert" isn't one at all.

Like I've said repeatedly, yet no one has listened, this is the first time that this has happened. I have never seen the conditions that you claim. Frankly, it would have been smarter to go to the manager.

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I just hope that you don't get anti-exotic pet legislation rolling in Oklahoma.

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Umm As a die hard activist from way back I can assure you, Raptor, that the media wont take that line in this case. The media is interested in drama, "What makes the best story." They might profile both sides of the issue but they are going to focus on the drama and in this case the drama is lack of care. Besides the reptile opposers are not the only one's watching this kind of thing. Animal right's activists love the press too.

I know that Ohio is pressing for a ban but the bottom line is the profit margin... ALWAYS!!!!! and herping is a growing interest. I don't know for sure but my guess is that the reptile business is a multi billion dollar industry and the polititions have to focus on how such a thing will impact the economy.

To the OP, your actions might have been over kill but at least you did something. Kudos for that. If you or I got caught with a sick animal that we were obviously neglecting. We would at the very least get ticketed and/or fined. At the most go to jail. So, why should pet stores be allowed to abuse and/or neglect animals and keep getting away with it?

I spoke to the persons in charge of the store and they seemed to just blow me off and do nothing, I did not even get the expected "customer service" responce of "what can we do to fix this issue".

Raptor the investigators contacted me and made it very clear they are going to focus on pet stores not having proper training and care procedures. I explained to them that all I wanted was for the company to take responcibability, and seek vet care for the sick animals.
Now that being said, this is just a small reason I am reacting in this manor. I see things like this, if any of the herps have Samonilla, and say they get handed to an unknowing person or child? In adults, most Samonilla is just a bad day in bed and restroom, but with childeren... It gets much worse. Now i'm sorry but i'm pretty sure my media/press exposure of a company needing to clean up will do far less then a mass media of people getting sick and possibly death from sick reptiles... just saying

Considering they've always done a segment poo-pooing exotic animal ownership (big cats and the like), I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow twist it.

Oh you must be talking about Animal Planet and the program's they show like "Fatal Attractions" Again it's all about the drama. Those are interesting and extreme stories that make for good TV but honestly how many times have you opened the local news paper and seen an article about someone getting attacked by their pet bp. lol Having used the media to effect change before I can tell you that they check their facts before going public, otherwise they look like idiots. The issue reported is inhumane conditions and that will be the story line unless information presented shows otherwise. The American public loves stories of the "Under dog" and the media knows this, that's why they wont likely change venues.

..Uh. No. I'm talking about the local fox station doing a segment about exotic animals.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

..Uh. No. I'm talking about the local fox station doing a segment about exotic animals.

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I'm pretty sure your talkin about the once a week vet talk where in the end they are trying to find a home for the selected shelter animal?? Wow thats horrable that a new station would try to place an unwanted animal imto a loving home...< all sarcasticly said mind you... I do believe the other big issue they raised hell about.was animal hoarders and the new dog flippers on craigslist.. Again I feel your panicing over some unforseen reason. Or you have ties to the company in some way...:confused:

...Stop making assumptions about what I've seen, honestly. It makes you look bad. Several weeks back, there was segment on exotic animals. As I said prior, they basically poo pooed exotic animal ownership.

Oh. Look. here's the article on the news segment: http://www.fox23.com/news/local/stor...CsKO8jh1g.cspx

The worst thing you could have done was go to the media. All they're interested in doing is sensationalism, and fox is known as one of the worst for spinning the truth.

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Originally Posted by enchantress62

Having used the media to effect change before I can tell you that they check their facts before going public, otherwise they look like idiots. The issue reported is inhumane conditions and that will be the story line unless information presented shows otherwise. The American public loves stories of the "Under dog" and the media knows this, that's why they wont likely change venues.

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Aside from my personal difficulty following your mosey to a conclusion, are you serious? They check facts otherwise they look like idiots?

I think in another post you or someone said they'll send in an expert to check things out? An expert in what? What qualifications make you an expert? Who will the person, supposedly an expert in something, be paid by?

Publicity may not be bad, but it isn't always good and is often incorrect.

I also like how you've "used" the media before. Complain much?

The pictures weren't great. We have one person's opinion and that person means well but is also not an expert. Then some of you start piling on making all kinds of wild ASSumptions.

Facts people. You really need facts. Better pictures, better yet, video. Maybe someone local who IS an expert could go take a look.

I see good intentions but not positive outcomes.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Aside from my personal difficulty following your mosey to a conclusion, are you serious? They check facts otherwise they look like idiots?

I think in another post you or someone said they'll send in an expert to check things out? An expert in what? What qualifications make you an expert? Who will the person, supposedly an expert in something, be paid by?

Publicity may not be bad, but it isn't always good and is often incorrect.

I also like how you've "used" the media before. Complain much?

The pictures weren't great. We have one person's opinion and that person means well but is also not an expert. Then some of you start piling on making all kinds of wild ASSumptions.

Facts people. You really need facts. Better pictures, better yet, video. Maybe someone local who IS an expert could go take a look.

I see good intentions but not positive outcomes.

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I think your mistaking my post with another post, I have never used the media before this point, also I did not post any pictures. I feel I had no other options then to do what I did. Forthermore there is not going to be any stories done due to the owners of the company responding to the investigators and showing they have cleaned or replaced all enclosures and have all reptiles under the care of an exoctic animal vet. So all is well and in the end the Animals win.

If you look at my post you'll see that I quoted someone in it. That someone was not you.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Aside from my personal difficulty following your mosey to a conclusion, are you serious? They check facts otherwise they look like idiots?

I think in another post you or someone said they'll send in an expert to check things out? An expert in what? What qualifications make you an expert? Who will the person, supposedly an expert in something, be paid by?

Publicity may not be bad, but it isn't always good and is often incorrect.

I also like how you've "used" the media before. Complain much?

The pictures weren't great. We have one person's opinion and that person means well but is also not an expert. Then some of you start piling on making all kinds of wild ASSumptions.

Facts people. You really need facts. Better pictures, better yet, video. Maybe someone local who IS an expert could go take a look.

I see good intentions but not positive outcomes.

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No, I believe he or she is quoting me. Wilomn, I'm not sure where the anger is coming from but you are right about one thing. I am new to this hobby and maybe you know something I don't but I know a thing or two about the press, and how it works, having been an activist for the homeless for nine years. We used the news in various ways to effect change.

That said, I believe that I am entitled to my opinion just like you are. You have every right to disagree with me but publicly flogging me for expressing my thoughts is not only rude but uncalled for.

Also, If I'm not mistaken, the OP shared an experience they had with a pet store who wasn't taking care of the animal's we all love and because he/she was concerned took action.

Instead of attacking, maybe you could tell us what you would do if you had witnessed what they had.

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Originally Posted by crazyj83

I've contacted the local media/news stations and Fox23 is suposed to be going in and investigating the store. The investigation team lead told me they will send in an expert in reptiles amd get feedback from them, then if need be they will submit the issue to the proper authorities and go from there... I hope that atleast the embarrasment to the owners and bad publicity to the compamy will make them clean up their act and either learn more to properly care for animals or just stop selling them period. I'll keep everyone posted on the find I amd so on.

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woohoo! that was a fabulous idea! no one wants bad publicity or to be made to look bad. i really hope that lites a fire under their rears!

i would really like to know the outcome on this one. maybe try pulling up the story after it airs. would like to see how the media handles it and how the pet shop responds.

Considering that this is fox we're talking about, I doubt it'll be positive.

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Originally Posted by enchantress62

No, I believe he or she is quoting me. Wilomn, I'm not sure where the anger is coming from but you are right about one thing. I am new to this hobby and maybe you know something I don't but I know a thing or two about the press, and how it works, having been an activist for the homeless for nine years. We used the news in various ways to effect change.

That said, I believe that I am entitled to my opinion just like you are. You have every right to disagree with me but publicly flogging me for expressing my thoughts is not only rude but uncalled for.

Also, If I'm not mistaken, the OP shared an experience they had with a pet store who wasn't taking care of the animal's we all love and because he/she was concerned took action.

Instead of attacking, maybe you could tell us what you would do if you had witnessed what they had.

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Before I took any action, I'd get facts. Not opinions, no matter how well intentioned.

Bringing attention to the plight of the homeless can be important work.

Bringing a fox crew to a pet store who we have heard two differing opinions on just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. What we don't need is more public attention to issues we as keepers are not even sure exist.

First verify that what has been said is fact. Then make a plan. Don't go calling peta and hsus or anyone else all willynilly trying to make noise to bust this one guy.

Best thing to do is NOT spend money there. Secondary to that, encourage your friends to take a pass on the place too. Maybe check your local Herp. Society if you have one and see if they have heard anything about the place. Herpers like to talk and most of them know all the stores in their area.

Or, if you just like media attention, go, whore yourself out. You might get a second or two on camera yourself. The media is NEVER our friend in these situations. Which is not to say it needs to be or should be covered up, just that there are other methods of approach that won't get crap all over everyone involved.

Ok as I said before everything is done for now, the owners of the company were not aware of how bad that store really was, it took fox media contacting them and bringing the issue to their table. They have agreed to bring all animal enclosures up to par and maintain health, I guess it just took a little poke to get them to move their rears and take action. Again, the animals win.

Why is it that I want to disbelieve this? Frankly, you should have gone to the owners of the stores first.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Before I took any action, I'd get facts. Not opinions, no matter how well intentioned.

Bringing attention to the plight of the homeless can be important work.

Bringing a fox crew to a pet store who we have heard two differing opinions on just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. What we don't need is more public attention to issues we as keepers are not even sure exist.

First verify that what has been said is fact. Then make a plan. Don't go calling peta and hsus or anyone else all willynilly trying to make noise to bust this one guy.

Best thing to do is NOT spend money there. Secondary to that, encourage your friends to take a pass on the place too. Maybe check your local Herp. Society if you have one and see if they have heard anything about the place. Herpers like to talk and most of them know all the stores in their area.

Or, if you just like media attention, go, whore yourself out. You might get a second or two on camera yourself. The media is NEVER our friend in these situations. Which is not to say it needs to be or should be covered up, just that there are other methods of approach that won't get crap all over everyone involved.

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So let me get this straight. You say get facts. Okay, the OP walked into the store with his family, including children, and witnessed the conditions he described. He explained that he talked with an employee who only reinforced his concerns.

Now, short of contacting the owner, which I agree, should have been the first step. how would you have gathered more facts? The OP witnessed the neglect first hand. His wife and children also witnessed the conditions and I'm sure are in support of his efforts.

Also, if you had read all of the post's you would have seen that I advised him to contact the ASPCA and report the stores conditions or go back with camera in hand and take pictures, then when asked, tell them that he just thought the ASPCA should know what a fine job they are doing. I never told him to go to the press but since he did at least we can support his efforts. He did something. What have you done to end this kind of neglect/abuse?

And.... The name calling says more about you then it does about me.

To the OP, I appologize for getting off topic a little. I think you did well because the outcome was benefitial to the animals. Maybe you could go back to the store in a couple weeks and see for yourself if the necissary changes were made.

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Originally Posted by enchantress62

So let me get this straight. You say get facts. Okay, the OP walked into the store with his family, including children, and witnessed the conditions he described. He explained that he talked with an employee who only reinforced his concerns.

Now, short of contacting the owner, which I agree, should have been the first step. how would you have gathered more facts? The OP witnessed the neglect first hand. His wife and children also witnessed the conditions and I'm sure are in support of his efforts.

Also, if you had read all of the post's you would have seen that I advised him to contact the ASPCA and report the stores conditions or go back with camera in hand and take pictures, then when asked, tell them that he just thought the ASPCA should know what a fine job they are doing. I never told him to go to the press but since he did at least we can support his efforts. He did something. What have you done to end this kind of neglect/abuse?

And.... The name calling says more about you then it does about me.

To the OP, I appologize for getting off topic a little. I think you did well because the outcome was benefitial to the animals. Maybe you could go back to the store in a couple weeks and see for yourself if the necissary changes were made.

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First, I want to appologize for any rude remarks made to you by others on this thread.
Second, thank you for seeing that I truely ment no harm to the herp community, I just wanted to help save and protect animals that we all care for and love.

I also want to clear up one thing. I did contact the store manager, and when he was no help I contacted the owners who seemed to pass the issue off as just another gripe and nothing to care about. The only reason I went as far as I did was to get my point that the animals health was at risk. The aspca said it could and more then likely would be middle of next month before they could do anything. Now please I dare anyone reading this to tell me that a bp with sever scale rot and a RI thats so bad the poor thing is gasping for air, mixed with 4 other bps and a baby burm, please try and tell me yheyd still have a chance of survival if I had let the matter go for a month... I'm pretty sure they would all have been sick if not dead. Now lets put it this way, the bps in question are just a $ to the owners. Now to an owner of they have 5 bps marked at $60each and a burm at $150 give or take, those animals die they take $450 or so in a loss, unless the breeder offers a credit for unsold animals. So do you really think they give a damn when someone complains? I think not. I do know that the second you bring in any sorce that will effect total store income, the people in charge take notice. Anyways all is said and done for now. I plan on returning to the store in a few days and verify thing have come to order.
Raptor, as for you I dont see why you decided to turn this into a mudslunging forum but if you remember when you responded to my prior post when you said you have visited that store, I asked you to go and see if I was overacting, and yet I dont believe you did, simply due to the fact your still defending the company. Untill you see what I saw and handled, i'd like to remind you I was, and always will do what I believe to be right.
I'd again like to thank everyone thats read this intire thread and see's I was only doing what I felt was right for the animals.

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Originally Posted by crazyj83

First, I want to appologize for any rude remarks made to you by others on this thread.

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When I feel the need to apologize, I will. So piss off on that score boyo, you don't have the right.

Secondly, you DO realize that today is christmas right? I hear some folks spend time with family and some stores are closed. That may have some effect on anyone's being able to verify what you've said. Then there's the whole you say one thing, someone else, one time if I recall correctly which is hardly defending anyone, said they saw something different.

No one has a problem with you "doing what you think is right."

However, tell me this, why should anyone take your word for it? I don't know you and even if I did I'd still ask for more proof than you've provided before I got my panties all wadded up. You see, newb, you're not the first to have misplaced good intentions. It's a darn shame you got all bent about the way I ask, but life is tough sometimes, get over it.

Starting to look like a mod needs to shut the lid on this one. "The friendliest online community for all your herping needs!" Remember that line? Look at the top of the page.

Also, I have just a couple opinions.

1) Pet stores need consequences for mistreating animals, but surely we can find a better way than going to the media (Fox, of all places).

2) ANY PUBLICITY FOR OUR HOBBY HAS PROVEN TO BE BAD. We'd be better off in the shadows with people completely ignoring us. No attention means less laws.

3) OP, i'm glad you did something. You didn't want those animals to suffer and that was very noble. Media, I personally don't agree with. They have been nothing but trouble for us. Boycotting, online reviews, written correspondence with owners (do this first), contacting authorities, and telling your online community (read: us) about it are the right courses of action in my mind.

TAKE PICTURES BEFORE TALKING TO MANAGEMENT IF YOU WANT THEM TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. PICTURES ARE WORTH A THOUSAND ANNOYING CUSTOMERS COMPLAINING.

I'm defending the company because I've been shopping there off and on for over two years. I've handled the snakes. I've talked to the employees numerous times. I've even been in the back where they keep the feeder mice because I wanted to pick out some breeders.

No, I didn't go to the store, because honestly? I'm not going to drive an hour over to the store and use up two gallons of gas, especially not with all the construction going on and during the final christmas rush to buy gifts.

Once incident is not enough to convince me that the stores have suddenly turned evil.

Damn thats sad....:mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

When I feel the need to apologize, I will. So piss off on that score boyo, you don't have the right.

Secondly, you DO realize that today is christmas right? I hear some folks spend time with family and some stores are closed. That may have some effect on anyone's being able to verify what you've said. Then there's the whole you say one thing, someone else, one time if I recall correctly which is hardly defending anyone, said they saw something different.

No one has a problem with you "doing what you think is right."

However, tell me this, why should anyone take your word for it? I don't know you and even if I did I'd still ask for more proof than you've provided before I got my panties all wadded up. You see, newb, you're not the first to have misplaced good intentions. It's a darn shame you got all bent about the way I ask, but life is tough sometimes, get over it.

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Humm... Did not realize I named you as an offender... Nice of you to join in. also yes I know today is Christmas, I was not telling anyone to drive there today, matter of fact I merly asked if a fellow Tulsa area owner could go by to see for themselves before passing judgement. But like i've said, I did what I felt was right by the animals health and welfare. But its cool yall bash me for lighting a fire under a petstore owners rear to keep on top of the quality and care of the animals they sell to the public.
Ask yourself this, if you went to a breeder and saw a mess of sick snakes and dirty tubs, and after trying to get them to clean up and help the sick, you wouldent step up the pressure to help the animals?
:confused:

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said I lived in the immediate tulsa area. You also asked back on the 21st, which is prime time for last minute shopping.

Wow! Okay. Crazyj83 I commend you for taking action and I hope all will be well for the poor snakes you stood up for. It's often hard to do the right thing when faced with controversy and critizism but it wouldn't be called "Courage" if it were easy. Hat's off and a bow. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raptor

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said I lived in the immediate tulsa area. You also asked back on the 21st, which is prime time for last minute shopping.

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I never assumed, I recall asking that if you 'did' live in Tulsa to swing by and see for yourself. I live up in Skiatook, and i'm pretty sure if anyone in Tulsa, Barttlesville, anywhere in between I'd be there to help if asked. But its cool. Like I said, I really dont care how much crap I get over this thread, I know I did what was right for the animals...

First, "going off" on a employee or "raising some cain" is not a way to be seen as a reasonable reptile keeper who is concerned with the animals. It's the way to be seen a PETA whacko that thinks anything is extreme abuse and will go off at anything.

First, you should bring concerns to the attention of the employee in a reasonable adult manner, addressing illnesses or extreme husbandry, taking into account the manner a STORE has to display animals for sale.

So address the symptoms of severe illness on the baby BP. Point out the symptoms, explain what they mean and that the RI will spread to infect all the other snakes. Offer to take the snake to their in store clinic with the employee right then. "Hey, let's walk it over to your vet... he can look at it!"

Address keeping two species in a single tank, and keeping extreme size differences(if there are any) in the same cage. DO realize that yes, a store WILL keep more than one baby BP in a tank, that's going to happen. They can't have a single tank per animal in every case and keeping a few BPs in a single tank until they sell isn't neccasarily a huge thing.

If the employee blows you off, then ask to speak to a manager and address THEM reasonably. If they blow you off, then ask for the store owner's information, since they should know the health concerns will result in the animals dying, possibly after being sold, which will lead to not only lost income but a bad name for the business too.

If you present concerns in a well thought out manner sounding like a reasonable adult, in a way to shows the store that it hurts THEM as well as the animals... you would probably get a positive result. Ranting at some employee and shouting in a store makes you look like a nutcase, doesn't help the animals and can even result in the employees deiberately NOT changing how they do things "just because some weirdo screamed about it in the store".

Do you want conditions improved for all the reptiles? Or do you want some public placating and things to not really change? Sure, yelling and pitching a fit feels good but it's only going to alienate the people who have hands-on those animals every day. Wouldn't you rather have people who have proper knowledge of how to care for and treat the animals rather than some people who grudgingly do the least amount possible because they're angry over being treated like idiots?

Sometimes it's better to take a deep breath and behave more like a responsible adult than to pitch fits and threaten to call in the media or authorities. As you've found out, the authorities have better things to do than go check on reptiles in a store that have water and shelter, and the media prefer fluffy kitties to 'poor neglected snakes'. A media threat might make them clean the cages up for the cameras. Educating them as to why proper care results in better profits and healthier stock benefits the ANIMALS.

Just saying. Just my opinion. I try to think of the critters first, no matter HOW angry the neglect might make me.