a humane way to euthanize feeders+ sad news for me+some questions about snake racks.

It has been over a year since I have been on this forum. But things have happened since last year. My latest bit of news was horrible news... My spider ball Apollo a few months ago had a spot on his underside that appeared to be a burn. I treated it with a little triple antibiotic ointment (make sure no infection would occur.) A month later all seemed fine, the "burn" had shrunk. I went off on a trip about 3 weeks ago, and got a care taker for my snakes. I got back 2 days ago, and checked back on my snakes, and I was totally stunned what I found on my spider. On his stomach I saw giant slightly blackish red spots, and they covered 1/3rd of his underside. I suspected scale rot, so I put some betadyne on his stomach, and again applied my antibiotic ointment, and left him in his cage for the night. The next morning I checked up on him, I knew something wasn't right when I saw him laying belly up. I opened the cage and picked him up, and he was limp... Apollo died in the night, I never said good bye....:tears: I suspect he died of scale rot, but it was a fast onset. My cage conditions are clean, and I inspect my pythons regularly. I want to know how he got this... But something obviously went to hell. Why? Because on one of my normals, she has those weird "burn" spots. I frankly am scared for the safety of my collection, so I am quarantining them off from each other. In fear of if it is a contagious disease, I am twice daily going to clean them with my antibiotics and change there bedding. I hope this doesn't hurt any more of them. Also, this is my first time dealing with a snakes death. Honestly, this death is a hard thing to deal with...

On a brighter note... I have been working to find how to cheaply, and humanely euthanize large quantities of feeders. I feel I have found an amazingly cheep and fast way of killing them. Take a small tupperware tub with matching lid, then cut a hole in the top of the lid. Now comes the interesting part... I have found that gassing rodents has consistently been the most humane way to go. But getting bottled co2 or dry ice can be expensive and more time consuming to find. My goal was to find a way at home to produce gas fast. This is my finding: Compressed air (computed duster). It is cheep, accessible, and last a long time for multiple uses. God knows what is in this gas, but it certainly isn't air. Anyway, take the compressed "air" and blow it through that opening in the lid. It takes literally 30 seconds or less till the rat/mouse is dead. Its fast, cheep, effective, and most importantly: humane.

As far as housing for my snakes go, I have been using 20 gal. glass aquariums for each snake. In each cage, I have sticks, and 2 hides, a rock (not a hot rock,a real one), water, harlan tedlad sani-chip bedding, and an external underside heat pad. I find that upkeep is laborious and difficult for the aquariums. I am transferring to a rack system. I want the easiest to maintain system as possible. Efficiency+Ease of manageability=Healthy snakes, and a happy owner! But I have a few questions... First, do I need a hide in the cage? The shelves themselves are going to be mostly dark/dimly lit inside by my snake room. Secondly, what is the best arrangement for the heat pad?

Do you have a thermostat for your heat pads ? Sounds like burns to me. Also, I'm not sure if you're supposed to use antibiotics on snakes? Shouldve brought him to the vet when you got back from your trip when you saw the slightly blackish red spots.

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Originally Posted by mattchibi

Do you have a thermostat for your heat pads ? Sounds like burns to me. Also, I'm not sure if you're supposed to use antibiotics on snakes? Shouldve brought him to the vet when you got back from your trip when you saw the slightly blackish red spots.

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About the antibiotic thing, yes you can use certain kinds of antibiotic. I am using ointments, It isnt ingested at all.

Sounds like burns as well.

Did you use antibiotic ointment without painkillers? The additional chemicals in the numbing portion of the ointment would be a problem as well.

Get a thermostat to plug in with your heat pad, make sure it is not above 90F, and make sure that your husbandry is on the up and up.

I'm so sorry that you lost your guy. I hated when I lost one of mine, and then had (non-snake) people look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them how much I missed him.

About your rack and hides--it all depends. I have mine in a Boaphile rack and some of them won't use a hide anymore. The tubs are enclosed on 3 sides, so they might figure that they're already hidden enough if they hang out in the back corner.

In a rack system the heating is usually built in or you add flexwatt, not a pad. You absolutely must have a thermostat to use a rack system because those little drawers can heat up enough to kill your snakes without control. I think you'll like using a rack. It's so much easier to clean and the snakes shed great in them because they keep the humidity higher.

I have no idea what the spots could be, but if you suspect it to be an infectious disease, I would recommend moving the snakes into tubs straight away - or else, removing all non-essential items (like the branches and rocks) from their tanks, sterilizing everything else, and changing the substrate to newsprint or paper towels for ease of cleaning. Good luck & I hope you have no more problems from this.

The triple antibiotic can help Prevent infection. But if one has already set in it doesn't cure it. Personally I use betadyne to Prevent infections if any bite, or scraps occur. After that if I suspect infection I use prescribed abos. It sounds like a possible burn and then bc it was essentially left untreated it turned into sepsis. Also for burns I woulnt use triple abo I would use the burn cream. Jeeze I can't think of the name at the moment. Silver something.
Guys help me out here.....

Scale rot is a fungus and usually gets really nasty before becoming a fatal issue.
Burns and sepsis sound more The culprit.
I am so sorry for your loss.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Are you using a thermostat on your heat pads?

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but killing animals with compressed air isn't necessarily humane. You need to find out what type of gas you are using, because since you knwo nothing about the contents, you could be causing your animals a lot of pain, without knowing.


The reason CO2 is used normally, is that it doesn't suffocate an animal like a lot of people thing it does. Its like getting gassed at the doctor. You feel a little off, then you black out and don't know when/for how long. But in the case of the mice, they black out, then die in their sleep.


You need to find out what type of gas you are killing your rodents with, for more reasons than just the humane factor. It could be harmful to your reptiles as well.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but killing animals with compressed air isn't necessarily humane. You need to find out what type of gas you are using, because since you knwo nothing about the contents, you could be causing your animals a lot of pain, without knowing.


The reason CO2 is used normally, is that it doesn't suffocate an animal like a lot of people thing it does. Its like getting gassed at the doctor. You feel a little off, then you black out and don't know when/for how long. But in the case of the mice, they black out, then die in their sleep.


You need to find out what type of gas you are killing your rodents with, for more reasons than just the humane factor. It could be harmful to your reptiles as well.

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iv gased ALOT (thousands) of rats, and mice in a C02 chaimber, and it looks like (to me) that they are suffocating. they just dont lay down and go to sleep. they run around, piss them selfs and gasp for air until they die.
if only doing a small amount of mice, cervical dislocation is the fastest way to do it. NOTE this will not work for rats.....
but your right,, you DO need to find out what type of gas you are killing your rodents with, for more reasons than just the humane factor. It could be harmful to your reptiles as well.
spooky

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

iv gased ALOT (thousands) of rats, and mice in a C02 chaimber, and it looks like (to me) that they are suffocating. they just dont lay down and go to sleep. they run around, piss them selfs and gasp for air until they die.
if only doing a small amount of mice, cervical dislocation is the fastest way to do it. NOTE this will not work for rats.....
but your right,, you DO need to find out what type of gas you are killing your rodents with, for more reasons than just the humane factor. It could be harmful to your reptiles as well.
spooky

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This is due to you having the co2 pumping it to fast at once.

Slow gental flow where you barely hear a wisp, they will not freak out, run and anything else.

Mine will wobble as their dizzy, lay down and pass out,

They gasp at the end cause the bodys natural reaction to lack of oxygen is to breath deeply, but they are unconscious at this point

~Karl

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

iv gased ALOT (thousands) of rats, and mice in a C02 chaimber, and it looks like (to me) that they are suffocating. they just dont lay down and go to sleep. they run around, piss them selfs and gasp for air until they die.
if only doing a small amount of mice, cervical dislocation is the fastest way to do it. NOTE this will not work for rats.....
but your right,, you DO need to find out what type of gas you are killing your rodents with, for more reasons than just the humane factor. It could be harmful to your reptiles as well.
spooky

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What Rich said.

That's why people use regulators - you need to be able to provide a low dosage until they are asleep then up it to kill them.


dr del

there was regulators. this was in a lab animal research facility. we had sop's and protocals that had to be followed. they were gasping for air. not all of them,, not all the time. maby the amount that i euthanised in a 5 year span seemed like i noticed it alot. regardless,,, i can asure you that they are not all laying down and going to sleep. saying that,, im confident that it is a humane way of euthanasia.
spooky

I have to agree with those who are saying compressed air is not the best way to go.

I breed feeders, that's my business. I euthanize animals from mice, to rabbits, to guinea pigs.

I have a Co2 canister (3 ft) and a regulator valve.

I put my animals in, turn the gas on low, and then they fall asleep. Once they are asleep, you turn the gas up to fully euthanize them. If you turn the gas up HIGH right away, it burns them and causes them to go from an awake state to death.

Once the gas is turned up, yes, they do gasp, but it's just a response, just like how they kick after cervical dislocation.

I find Co2 the easiest and most humane way. Cervical dislocation is a good method if you know how to do it correctly... If you don't, you can cause severe pain.

As far as canned air, although some companies make it out of safe products, some do not. I would be worried about any animal killed with canned air, as, I do not know with 100% certainty that the specific brand of canned air used is 100% safe.

Plus, there is no regulation, the spray sound probably scares the crap out of them, and it probably gets extremely cold in the container before they even go to sleep. In addition, sufficient research hasn't been done to support the fact that they are not in pain or suffering during the procedure.

It's easy enough to find Co2. I say, just get that. Any ****s, Sporting goods store, and welding supply store will have it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

iv gased ALOT (thousands) of rats, and mice in a C02 chaimber, and it looks like (to me) that they are suffocating. they just dont lay down and go to sleep. they run around, piss them selfs and gasp for air until they die.
if only doing a small amount of mice, cervical dislocation is the fastest way to do it. NOTE this will not work for rats.....
but your right,, you DO need to find out what type of gas you are killing your rodents with, for more reasons than just the humane factor. It could be harmful to your reptiles as well.
spooky

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With co2 it takes about a min. + to die. The compressed air takes LESS than 30 sec. My last feeder took 10 sec. That seems a lot shorter and easier than co2. I did some research about the gas that is used in the compressed air. One of the gases used is Difluoroethane. The inhalation of this gas is famous for people who "huff". But in huge doses with out o2 can cause cardiac arrest. The other gas used is trifluoroethane which is used for the accelerant. As far as harming the snakes: I researched this topic what I found is quite good... The amount of gas in the lungs is extremely small. When gas is ingested it doesn't get absorbed in the body. Think of it like air when you swallow it. It gets released by either as a burp or breaking wind. The gas is 100% harmless to the snakes.

one more thing... The compressed air has a variable trigger. you can get it to release the gas very quietly, even this will work fast. Plus, they don't run around, they in 5 seconds lay down. then they stop breathing. I am still convinced this is a great way to go.

The amount of time has no relevance to how easy the death is.
You could set the mouse on fire, and I'm sure it will die in about 30 seconds. You could drop it into boiling water and I'm sure it will be quicker. That doesn't mean it's humane.

Gas injested DOES get into the body. That's why smoking is a way to injest drugs, and so is insuflating.

Please do more research, we're all suggesting it.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

The amount of time has no relevance to how easy the death is.
You could set the mouse on fire, and I'm sure it will die in about 30 seconds. You could drop it into boiling water and I'm sure it will be quicker. That doesn't mean it's humane.

Gas injested DOES get into the body. That's why smoking is a way to injest drugs, and so is insuflating.

Please do more research, we're all suggesting it.

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I appreciate your responses. But the fact of the matter is, as reptile owners we usually need to kill mice. And all feeder mice or rats somewhere down the line need to die. Whether it be pre-killed, frozen, or live feeding. The humane killing is a wide ranged issue: Take feeding live. Many of us do it, but we tend not to do it as it can hurt our snakes. We usually never think about it from the other way around... Think about live feeding from the mouses point of view: first a giant unfamiliar animal bites you with 100s of teeth, and crushes you do death. you can't breathing or out. you are choking and scared. Your bones come out of socket and even break, and you die in a minute and a half+. In the scheme of things, that seems very inhumane. The compressed air shouldn't be compared to burning alive in fire or boiling water. The rats LITERALLY lay down and sleep. they don't run, or piss themselves. If it is painful, it sure as hell is 1000x shorter and far less than the live feedings. Even with co2, you are suffocating. It even if they fall asleep to some degree is somewhat painful. The better thing with both compressed air and co2 is that you can freely breath, reducing the fear. I feel that for right now the humane factor is quite good compared to most others. This method is quick and easy as a euthanasia device. Also, about your comeback of smoking as injecting gas... there is a distinct difference with swallowing and breathing through the lungs. The amount of gas in the lungs of the mouse is small. It does kill the mouse, but once swallowed by the snake, is harmless. There is so little gas in the lungs of the mouse that it in and of it's self not threatening to the snake. But by ingesting that gas by stomach, it does not get absorbed by the body. The main gas used as mentioned is, Difluoroethane. The gas its self is very very briefly introduced to the mouse or rat. The amount of gas in the blood stream or the mouse is even more minuscule. Please stop bashing me for my way of euthanasia. The degree of pain seems to be near, or at the level of co2. This is so far and away better for multiple rats at a time than dislocation. Plus there isn't a possible chance of missing the head. The rat goes in very nicely, and it doesn't even struggle.

One last thing... I have done more research than when I started using this method. You guys haunt even researched this topic even slightly. It is very apparent that you guys are shooting from the hip with your responses. Sure, I'm not an expert yet on this subject of compressed air, but I have researched this topic more than you have. Please stop calling this completely inhumane. As a euthanasia tactic for feeders, it is certainly a good way to go.

Everyone was only mentioning it as there have been plenty of studies that have tried to find the most humane and safe way to euthanize animals. I'm pretty sure compressed air has been tested and there is probably a reason that it is not used more widely..

I realize you have done research, a lot more than myself on the subject i'm sure, we just want to make sure that you know, it 'could' be potentially dangerous to your animals.

Either way, you will do what you want to do. Most here were just trying to offer help.

There's that word again. Suffocating.
Death by Co2 is by definition asphyxia, but that doesn't mean they -can't- breath, it means they are not able to absorb enough oxygen. A lot of people seem to think it means the same thing as being smothered, or un-able to breath.
Here's a quote from wikipedia about the effects of CO2 on a human, "Without sufficient oxygen to sustain life, people will act normally at first but will then abruptly feel dizzy and black out in a matter of seconds as the remaining oxygen in the blood stream is consumed" this is what happens to the mice. There are also multiple instances where thousands of people died in their sleep, and many more died while they weer awake, due to an eruption of CO2 from underwater. None of the people woke up, struggled, or even felt bad. They would be talking, acting normal and just fall over and die. You can look up information about these instances online, in news papers, etc. This is direct human evidence and experience of the effects of CO2 on the body, and what death by CO2 feels like.
Now, go look up information about people dying or nearly so, from huffing canned air.
There are many ways to die from inhailing canned air, you don't know how your mice are dying for sure.

The mouse's body will be filled with whatever chemicals were in the gas, and being as it's dead, the chemicals will not be metabolized and turned harmles. By feeding these mice to your snake, your snake is ingesting potentially harmful chemicals. How you know how much of the chemical is in the rat/mouse, is beyond me. You haven't tested it, so you cannot know.

You're making some things up as you go, and using a method that you claim is better than one of the most widely used and accepted ways of euthanasia.
If you want to prove that it is better, then you need to use facts, not guesses, and misinformation.

Just because you really want this method to be humane, doesn't mean that it is. Sure, it's cheap and easy. Does that make it humane? No.

The only method of home euthanasia that is approved by the American Veterinary Medical Association is C02 gas administered with a regulator. This isn't just everyone's opinion.

C02 does NOT cause suffocation. It's a local anesthetic that acts as a central nervous system depressant. The rat breathes normally, goes unconscious, then dies while unconscious. This is true as long as the C02 is used correctly with a regulator.

Honestly I don't understand why you are fighting everybody on this. Picking up a C02 tank and regulator is affordable and easy.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

There's that word again. Suffocating.
Death by Co2 is by definition asphyxia, but that doesn't mean they -can't- breath, it means they are not able to absorb enough oxygen. A lot of people seem to think it means the same thing as being smothered, or un-able to breath.
Here's a quote from wikipedia about the effects of CO2 on a human, "Without sufficient oxygen to sustain life, people will act normally at first but will then abruptly feel dizzy and black out in a matter of seconds as the remaining oxygen in the blood stream is consumed" this is what happens to the mice. There are also multiple instances where thousands of people died in their sleep, and many more died while they weer awake, due to an eruption of CO2 from underwater. None of the people woke up, struggled, or even felt bad. They would be talking, acting normal and just fall over and die. You can look up information about these instances online, in news papers, etc. This is direct human evidence and experience of the effects of CO2 on the body, and what death by CO2 feels like.
Now, go look up information about people dying or nearly so, from huffing canned air.
There are many ways to die from inhailing canned air, you don't know how your mice are dying for sure.

The mouse's body will be filled with whatever chemicals were in the gas, and being as it's dead, the chemicals will not be metabolized and turned harmles. By feeding these mice to your snake, your snake is ingesting potentially harmful chemicals. How you know how much of the chemical is in the rat/mouse, is beyond me. You haven't tested it, so you cannot know.

You're making some things up as you go, and using a method that you claim is better than one of the most widely used and accepted ways of euthanasia.
If you want to prove that it is better, then you need to use facts, not guesses, and misinformation.

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Aww man, you beat me to it. :P

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

Honestly I don't understand why you are fighting everybody on this. Picking up a C02 tank and regulator is affordable and easy.

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It's certainly cheaper than buying canned air.

Canned air is humane. I just had to put down my pet rat with it. I used a 64 oz food tub with a vent hole to let air out and canned air (1,1-Difluoroethane).

12s- Dizzy.
28s- Passed out.
36s- Breathing stops.
1m- Heart stops.

There was no struggle, she didn't piss herself and she didn't make any noises. She became confused, laid down and just stopped breathing.
It is hypoxia, no matter if its CO2 or canned air. The cause and result is the same. Canned air is not used by shelters/vets because CO2 costs $1.50/cu.ft. while "canned air" costs $4/cu.ft.
For putting down small critters, its fine, but when shelters have to gas large dogs and cats, it gets costly quick.

Cheap way to euthanized is a sealed container with baking soda and vinegar. Produces CO2. I wouldn't do this as I feed live but if your looking for a painless way.