Spread the Word -- Don't Freeze Sick Snakes!

In case you ever have to put down a snake, don't just toss it in the freezer.

No longer an acceptable form of euthanasia.

See article for details and back up data:

http://www.herpcenter.com/reptile-ar...-reptiles.html

i dont see how anybody would have thought that freezing something to death would even be humane at all.. i use sodium pentobarbital at work and it does do the job, and very quick like, but the problem there is that you have licensed to use it.. also, sometimes its hard to find a vein on a reptile and this is too much stress than a reptile deserves.
to me, the only humane way of euthanasia on smaller reptiles is decapitation followed by pithing.
spooky

How are you supposed to do it? What are the main methods? Do people gas them like they do to rats and mice?

I don't get how that site lists decapitation as an acceptable method.

A snake's head can continue to live for many minutes after it's been decapitated. I'd go for squashing the head with a brick before I'd go for decapitation.

^^^ That's very true. Watch this video. Watch all of it, the head still gets defensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aRi9_Ppepo

granted it's an alligator but that's splitting hairs.

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Originally Posted by FalconPunch

How are you supposed to do it? What are the main methods? Do people gas them like they do to rats and mice?

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Gassing of snakes should never be done. You would have to fit a mask over the face of the snake to administer any gas, which I believe would make the snake panic. Snakes don't take a lot of air/oxygen when they breathe so I believe it would also take a long time. Many people have trouble administering anesthesia to snakes because of this.

True. It does recommend though that "The latter two of these(decapitation) require pre-euthanasia anesthesia to prevent suffering", I don't know much about that or if it would help.

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Originally Posted by FalconPunch

How are you supposed to do it? What are the main methods? Do people gas them like they do to rats and mice?

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You should read the article in the link.

Take to your vet so they can administer anesthesia and then a lethal shot of chemicals.

I think It would be really hard not to just let it die on it's own. If I absolutely had to kill one, I'd take it out and use a shotgun point blank. Seems the cleanest and quickest to me.

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Originally Posted by Chris Behof

You should read the article in the link.

Take to your vet so they can administer anesthesia and then a lethal shot of chemicals.

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How do I euthanize snakes for use as feeder animals (for king cobras, for example)?

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Originally Posted by FalconPunch

I think It would be really hard not to just let it die on it's own.

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I do agree, however sometimes when snakes get sick they will not get better with any medicine. Many times they will go off food and they will slowly wither away, and I mean slowly. Some snakes can take a long time to go through their fat reserves.

At the end of the day, it matters what the sickness is and what have you done to try to fix it. The effective but oft over prescribed Baytril isn't the end all be all of medicine, and many times it take culture sensitivity tests run by your vet to figure out just what is going on .

I had to have a snake euthanized before, and I paid for the most humane possible way given the snake was young. I had them give her a shot of anesthesia to knock her out, wait till she was out, then euthanize her. It cost around $200, but the last thing I wanted was for my baby to suffer. Definitely one of the most painful things I've had to do. :(

Gas anesthesia was also an option, but the vet told me there was no guarantee it would actually knock her out because snakes can hold their breath for up to 20 minutes, give or take. So they'd have no way of knowing if it had worked completely. So the shot seemed the better route because then I knew she wouldn't feel it. Or at least I hope not. In young snakes, often the vets can't find the vein in the tail, so the only way to do it effectively is to insert the needle directly into the heart. Horrible stuff.

what is pithing?

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Originally Posted by WarriorPrincess90

I had to have a snake euthanized before, and I paid for the most humane possible way given the snake was young. I had them give her a shot of anesthesia to knock her out, wait till she was out, then euthanize her. It cost around $200, but the last thing I wanted was for my baby to suffer. Definitely one of the most painful things I've had to do. :(

Gas anesthesia was also an option, but the vet told me there was no guarantee it would actually knock her out because snakes can hold their breath for up to 20 minutes, give or take. So they'd have no way of knowing if it had worked completely. So the shot seemed the better route because then I knew she wouldn't feel it. Or at least I hope not. In young snakes, often the vets can't find the vein in the tail, so the only way to do it effectively is to insert the needle directly into the heart. Horrible stuff.

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a heart stick with large animals is one thing, but with a snake is another thing.
large animals have exterior landmarks that makes locating the heart easy,, with a snake, there are no exterior landmarks. also, the heart in a small snake is about the size of a small bean. for sodium pentobarbital to be effective, it doesent need to be injected into the blood stream, or directly in the heart, it can be put into about any organ to be effective..... all im saying is just because a vet attempts a heart stick on a snake doesent mean that it hit the heart,,, leading to a slower death.. i havent had to do any of my persional reptiles, but im confident that decapitation followed by pithing is the most quick and less painful way if euthanasia.
spooky

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Originally Posted by cmack91

what is pithing?

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more less piercing the brain
spooky

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Originally Posted by cmack91

what is pithing?

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nevermind i found it

pithing:

Verb:

1.Remove the pith from.
2.Pierce or sever the spinal cord of (an animal) so as to kill or immobilize it.


(just incase anyone else was wondering)

So unlike mammals, being frozen to death wouldn't slowly knock them out then kill them?

What are other forms of euthanasia besides decapitating/smashing the head and being given a shot?

I personally could never smash a snake's head. I don't see it as any type of humane way to euthanize a snake. I've grown much too fond of snakes to do anything like that :weirdface.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

So unlike mammals, being frozen to death wouldn't slowly knock them out then kill them?

What are other forms of euthanasia besides decapitating/smashing the head and being given a shot?

I personally could never smash a snake's head. I don't see it as any type of humane way to euthanize a snake. I've grown much too fond of snakes to do anything like that :weirdface.

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lol,,, for mamals and reptiles alike, being frozen to death would slowly knock them out and kill them. well im not so sure about the knocking out part,, but being frozen will kill both. how fast of a death, again, im not so sure. and most people arent to fond of euthanasia,, thats why they spend 200$ to have someone else do it.
spooky

I think there are two issues, for a terminally ill animal that is loosing a battle to survive and a animal that has suffered trauma. A desperately sick animal I'd go to a vet and get it done with drugs and Anastasia. A trauma case is really the hardest one here, a animal that has suffered a horrible injury and is suffering (crushing injury of core for example) taking this case to a vet is not really humane it simply needs a swift death. In a case of something severe the swiftest death that you can manage is better than a slow agonizing one. If you simply cannot pith or smash the head freezing is still better than days of agony. I have been forced to end the suffering of an animal I cared about in that case it was a cat that had been run over and still alive with the back end crushed flat. It was suffer or kill her. I used a pocket knife to pith. I cried and vomited and scalded my hands trying to wash them in way too hot water. If I had been asked before if I could do such a thing I would have said no way but when push came to shove action was required and death could not end the pain fast enough I used what was at hand and did the best I could. Was it one of the most horrible things I have seen and done YES. Would I do it again... I think so. My point is in the case of agony going and finding things just isn't helping use what you have and get it done now not later. If the best you can do is the freezer that is the right answer. 20 mins is better than 20 hours.

I hope that you are never faced with this decision the last time this topic came up I had less experience. I hope the next time that it comes up everyone reading this one will not have any practical experience. Knowing that you did the humane thing does not make me feel any better.

This is just crazy to me, it's not ok to put them in the freezer but it is ok to chop off their heads. That's so barbaric, I could not do that. And if I'm understanding the site correctly you can freeze something under 40 grams? My next question, is it more humane to let it starve to death than freeze it? I really don't see people taking their snakes to the vet to be put to sleep, especially if an entire clutch is deformed and putting a rat to sleep at the vet costs $10. I guess people will just start using them as target practice since that will kill them in 1/10th of a second if done right.... I really don't care for that site's message.

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Oh and this just seems like more fuel for all the worthless people that release their pets into the wild. 'My snake is too sick, I don't have any money to fix it or put it down, I love my snake and don't want to chop its head off so I'll just let it outside, that's better than killing it!' Call me crazy, but someone is going to do it.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

This is just crazy to me, it's not ok to put them in the freezer but it is ok to chop off their heads. That's so barbaric, I could not do that. And if I'm understanding the site correctly you can freeze something under 40 grams? My next question, is it more humane to let it starve to death than freeze it? I really don't see people taking their snakes to the vet to be put to sleep, especially if an entire clutch is deformed and putting a rat to sleep at the vet costs $10. I guess people will just start using them as target practice since that will kill them in 1/10th of a second if done right.... I really don't care for that site's message.

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I agree with you if it is sick or something of that nature go to the vet. But what would you do if you discovered that a strip of flexwatt shorted out melted and burned the rack and you had a snake that was burned to the bone from vent to mid body covered in melted plastic and alive? In my case I am 20 min from a vet if it is after hours add 40 min to that. An hour away plus the time for chemical to work... this is not a humane answer. The answer is to stop the suffering now using the most certain means available what ever that is. Something has to be done and done quick. It is a no win situation I can absolutely promise you that but you will do something and hopefully it works fast.

I think a lot of it has to do with the situation and the animal.

It's all a matter of which is the more humane. If you literally CANNOT get to a vet... Is it more cruel for a few moments of pain...Or months of pain? How excruciating are those few moments? Vs. the months of pain....


I also think.. Well, I know it sucks, but the brain crushing..it is instant. Death needs to be instant and painless. I don't think I could do it. But if it needed to be done.. It would be. No matter how awful it is for me, I am not the one in pain, it's the snake. If I have the power to stop my animal's pain, I will. No matter how much it hurts me. I don't want to put an animal in a freezer where it will suffer in agony so that I can feel better if I have the power to give it a quick and much more painless death.

But if someone physically cannot, can NOT take their animal to the vet(for reasons mentioned above) and absolutely cannot bring themselves to end the animals life by their own hands... It comes down to the choices of the less humane euthanasia methods..or the possibly even less humane allowing of the animal to suffer.

So again, it comes down to that choice. On what the situation allows, I say go for the least humane method possible. Some people will be able to give their snakes a peaceful death at a vet's office. Some people will not be able to do that...

I do think whatever our situation, it's our responsibility to do what we do in the most humane way possible for us and our animal. If someone literally only has the option to decapitate and pithe, it won't be AS humane maybe as the falling asleep at the vet..... but is it more humane than letting it suffer for months? I think so..

It's tricky. I don't think we should be quick to judge people. I think in general we are all doing the best we can for our animals. Now if someone has the option to humanely euthanize their animals but chooses not to, that's..different than someone who is doing their best and making the choice to save their animal from pain.

It's all an ethical touchy subject! And a sad one. I don't like the idea of freezing snakes though. It's slow and painful.

Who would put any live animal in a freezer to kill it? That is just horrible. Anyone who would do that is cruel and heartless..no soul :devil:

For a reptile keeper to do this by freezing-

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As a result, reptiles and amphibians can feel their body get cold, which produces pain, but they can do nothing about it. Studies show that they can, literally, feel their cells freeze and rupture as they get further chilled, sensing pain as intensely as if they were being burned alive,

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Is barbaric, it just saves that keeper from having to deliver that extremely difficult death blow themselves.

Instant brain destruction is the fastest and most humane way outside of the vet. Be it brick or shotgun (mentioned earlier) the problem is that someone has to perform the act, not just put it quietly in the freezer and walk away until the reptile has passed away.

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Chilling a herp to death is an awful way to die, and, could they speak, they would describe it as torture. The American Veterinary Medical Association and the American Association of Zoological Veterinarians classify this as cruel treatment of animals and animal abuse and the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians categorize it as an unacceptable method of euthanasia, as well. If a veterinarian recommended this to you, it could be categorized as malpractice.

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Figured Id bring this back up, and to all those that say OMG to freezer, Your big name breeders use the freezer, yet you still buy from them...

Ive witnessed it first hand on many snakes.

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Originally Posted by FalconPunch

^^^ That's very true. Watch this video. Watch all of it, the head still gets defensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aRi9_Ppepo

granted it's an alligator but that's splitting hairs.

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That was crazy... Poor thing.

There's nothing 'inhumane' about crushing a animal's skull, thereby destroying the brain instantly. If you destroy the brain, the animal is dead and feels nothing. Yes, it's brutal, but it's humane. In the end, isn't it more important that the animal feels no pain, than whether you're squeemish about crushing a skull? A "humane bolt" is the same as a bullet to the skull, instant death. A hammer to the skull, applied with force does exactly the same thing. Instant destruction of the brain.

Sometimes people have the option to use a vet. Sometimes they do not. Maybe because of circumstances, traumatic injury, distance, time of day, etc. Maybe because of economic circumstance, someone lost their job, the car engine needed to be replaced... then the snake is sick/injured and you happen to have no money.

In some cases, the snakes are intended for food. What sort of humane death is reccomended?

And as to why people freeze reptiles, many people STILL believe that reptiles don't feel any pain when freezing to death. I suspect this came from the reptile not moving around while it died. It showed no "signs" of feeling pain, so people decided they didn't feel anything, and maybe they hibernated then died from the cold. NOW we know that the reptiles supposedly feel pain but are IMMOBILIZED by the cold, so it's painful even though they don't move around.

In my opinion, the only acceptable way to freeze a reptile to death would be a freezer that freezes in only a second or two(flash freezing). If the animal's brain is frozen within two seconds, I cannot say that it could possibly be feeling any pain. Most people do NOT have access to that sort of freezer though.

Dynamite.

"AK-47, the very best there is... when you absolutely positively gotta kill every ************ in the room, accept no subsitutes." - Samule L. Jackson, Pulp Fiction

I can see some of the merit to the arguments that have been made, in terms of a prolonged death of months versus minutes being frozen, even if that pain is horrendous in the time it last. I think it would be like having your arm pinned under a vehicle, with no help in sight and having to make the decision of sacrificing your arm and enduring that agony in those few minutes or of enduring possibly hours upon days of that pain...

Suck thought it may, having to make those decisions (euthanasia or not) and then the manner of euthanizing an animal if that need arises, are part of being a responsible pet owner. Yes it sucks, a lot. Yes we get attached to our pets and understandably so...but in the end, that animal is dependent on the owner for E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G: food, shelter, care, etc., including taking the initiative to end the animals' life if need be. I would much rather dispatch an animal in as efficient and as painless a manner as possible and by doing so give that animal all the respect it deserves than to agonize and quibble over whether or not to do so or even how to do so if the need arose and in the end, prolong it's suffering. Freezing wouldn't be pleasant but if that's the ONLY means to put one down, well... You do the best with what you've been handed and improvise, adapt, overcome and push on...and cry later if need be, once you've handled the business at hand. I dunno...just my opinions...doesn't mean their right, just my two cents.

I'm an idiot and hit the button too many times...duplicate post, DOH!

I think this is another thread of overthinking things.. too bad kevorkian is dead we really could use him right now

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I think this is another thread of overthinking things.. too bad kevorkian is dead we really could use him right now

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Second that ^^^. Do what needs done given the situation at hand and leave it at that.

Euthanasia is done to prevent the animal from suffering, NOT to make us humans feel better. Reptiles aren't like mammals. In my opinion, instantaneous destruction of the brain is the only guaranteed humane method of euthanasia for reptiles. I have questions about how well the drugs typically used for euthanasia work on reptiles, and I do not think they have been sufficiently tested on them. Others may disagree, but that is my opinion.
Decapitation followed by pithing sounds backwards to me...decapitation is far from painless, because the head continues to live afterward until the brain is destroyed.

I think reptile keepers need to keep firmly in mind the reptile's experience...and not their own.

We've already had the discussion pertaining to reptiles and pain. They obviously have a much higher pain tolerance and/or their brain does not register pain in the same way that we do, otherwise they would recoil and writhe in pain in the wild if injured. This would slow them down making them an easy target. Their brains are quite simple in comparison to a mammal. They are built tougher. They also barely flinch during surgery or injections. We know that anesthesia is almost useless on herps and more must be used for them than a mammal of the same size. Exotics vets who are aware of this will almost always recommend against anesthesia for a herp unless it is absolutely 100% necessary. We know there are more possible side effects.

These are things proven by veterinarians over the years so putting a snake down is not that simple. It's also known that even if you gas a snake to put it down, there is no guarantee that it is actually dead. They can take 3x as long to wake up from that as a mammal and you could have just thrown away a sleeping snake. Do you want to take that risk?? The internal functions can slow down so much that it won't even register to the vet..

I have to agree that in a case like that you really should put your Ewwww, yuck! How awful! Squeamish issues aside and take care of it yourself, the quickest and most painless way possible. That is what you want for your pet right?

Unfortunately, I think this entire thread is pointless because if you think about it, everyone on here who has ever had a very Ill snake or one that was badly injured that ended up dying, had no intention of putting it out of it's misery..

They just kept trying to treat it and it eventually died. Isn't that what everyone is going to do? Even if you have to treat a recurring issue for a year, you will, and you'll just let it eventually die. That's what humans do. We don't let anything go. We force them to suffer to benefit us. We treat them no matter what's wrong or how long just because we will not let them go.

So isn't this thread kind of useless?

Let the flaming begin....

Sorry, but no, I have had to put down a few snakes. Occasionally hatchlings emerge with non-survivable deformities, and I had one snake that developed cancer.

Anyone who's breeding snakes will eventually have to face that same issue--not every egg will develop into a perfect baby. Whether it's due to a problem with the incubator, or simply a random mutation or developmental issue, every once in a while, a hatchling will come out kinked, with fused body parts, missing eyes, with jaw deformities, etc. Not everything goes perfectly in reproduction.

If there is a chance they can be saved, it's worth trying--if you know that there isn't, then it's best to put them down humanely so that they won't suffer.

As for how reptiles sense pain...one or two accidentally pinched tails later, I have to disagree with you completely. There's nothing wrong with their ability to sense pain. Adrenalin dulls pain, so of course an animal that is frightened and defensive is not going to waste time reacting to the pain beyond the initial flinch. Neither will any mammal, bird, or even a human. How many times have you heard of someone getting their foot bitten off by a shark, and swimming straight to shore? Do they spend time 'writhing in pain'? Heck no, there's no time for that in a survival situation.

Add to that the fact that reptiles (like many other animals) will instinctively seek to hide any signs of weakness, and of course you aren't going to see the kind of outward signs you were looking for. You won't see them in a dog, either.

Im just a little curious as to how so many people know what a snake feels during different ways of putting them down. From all the different oppinions im hearing the end result is there is no way to humanely put them down. Look you owe it to the animal to end the suffering if it comes to that point. Regardless if it take 3 seconds longer doing it one way or another isnt the point. If it has to be done then do it quick. How do we know they suffer in the freezer? How do why know they dont go into a full hypothermic shutdown free of pain? How do we know cutting the head off that the snake suffers for minutes afterwards? I would like to know who is talking to these snakes to know how they feel. When i am faced with the crappy part of breeding snakes i put them down quick. I sure as hell am not going to say how i do it cause im sure someone here will start a 3 page rant about how im inhumane so im gonna chalk this thread up to another thread of overthinking things

People "know" how the snakes die by scientific exploration in how the bodies react to different stimulation and situations. The freezing info is in some studies somewhere. You could google up that. It's not hard to see a head that responds to movement and touch AFTER being seperated from the body completely, and understand that it can feel if it can respond to outside stimulius.

Foschi: And I've had to "put down" snakes and other pets in the past, thank you so much for assumptions that no one here has ever done the humane thing. This past year saw my cat of 24 years put to sleep at the vet, and more than one misformed hatchling killed instantly to prevent that "long suffering death". If you consider a disagreement a flame, then here's one for you.

I feel anything instant = humane. Doesn't matter if it's ugly or brutal looking... if it's instant for the animal, that's more important than if it's pretty to watch.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

People "know" how the snakes die by scientific exploration in how the bodies react to different stimulation and situations. The freezing info is in some studies somewhere. You could google up that. It's not hard to see a head that responds to movement and touch AFTER being seperated from the body completely, and understand that it can feel if it can respond to outside stimulius.

Foschi: And I've had to "put down" snakes and other pets in the past, thank you so much for assumptions that no one here has ever done the humane thing. This past year saw my cat of 24 years put to sleep at the vet, and more than one misformed hatchling killed instantly to prevent that "long suffering death". If you consider a disagreement a flame, then here's one for you.

I feel anything instant = humane. Doesn't matter if it's ugly or brutal looking... if it's instant for the animal, that's more important than if it's pretty to watch.

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I completely agree with your last statement as you can figure out by my comment about putting away ones ewww yuck that's horrible thing.. As for the rest, I was referring to the threads that are actually posted here.. The breeders never talk about putting down their animals do they? Of course not. Otherwise they would be argued with by the many here who are against the quickest and most painless way of putting them down (makes no sense I know). Isn't that happened in this thread after all?

Instead all I ever see talked about is keepers of one to a few pets where one is very sick or injured or whatever. I've seen cases being treated over and over and over and the animal dies.. That is the point I'm making.

My post was not for the breeders (like you and I) who have dealt with things like malformation, failure to thrive, emergency surgery, etc... Those who I'd expect to be intelligent enough to read between the lines on this forum where we ALL use to be on the same page more or less..

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Originally Posted by FalconPunch

^^^ That's very true. Watch this video. Watch all of it, the head still gets defensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aRi9_Ppepo

granted it's an alligator but that's splitting hairs.

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And now for something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT: http://youtu.be/CinfuRwQlO0

I just had to offset that video with something adorable...