Hybrid project

Im starting a hybrid project this year, and if sucessful, it will keep me busy for the next few years trying to acomplish my goal. im not going to try to keep this a secret, because im sure that anyone that is working with blood/ball hybrids is way ahead of me.
so here is my plan.. im wanting to introduce a recessive gene into the hybrid. if sucessful this first breeding atempt, i will hold back everything. once the hatchlings (F1) reach adulthood, i will breed them to each other hopefuly producing a visual F2.
the first pairing i did, the female blood showed no intrest, sence then, i have talked to a blood python breeder and they gave me some tips on blood breeding, so hopefuly this time ill be more sucessful.
i started this thread for those of us that are interseted in "superball" hybrids, or just hybrids in general.
after seeing past hybrid threads, i can truly say that i (persionaly) will not comment on any negative, or off topic feedback because i dont want it turning into that kind of thread. if you want to participate in that kind of thread, im sure there are some to be found.:colbert:
sooooooooo,,, heres what im doing!

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/w.../WP_000353.jpg:O:gj:
spooky

Nice:gj::gj::gj:

Interesting. So what all do you have in your collection that you are planning on inlcuding in this project? I didn't even know you had any bloods.

I'm curious to see how this turns out :gj:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Nice:gj::gj::gj:

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thanks! i hope it works out.. this is something that iv thought about for the past few years. i would love to have something like this in my persional colection.
spooky

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Originally Posted by Virus

Interesting. So what all do you have in your collection that you are planning on inlcuding in this project? I didn't even know you had any bloods.

I'm curious to see how this turns out :gj:

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only pieds and bloods. i have a few more doms, and codoms, that i could have used, but it turned out that the one i wanted to use is a recessive... go figure. i added about 2 years to my project. i have 2 male pieds that i will be cycling through this girl. i hope something takes,,, fingers crossed:please:!
spooky

Good luck and keep us updated.

Hope this works out for you! I'd love to see what kind of results you get in the end!

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Originally Posted by Salem Purrs

Hope this works out for you! I'd love to see what kind of results you get in the end!

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me too. as from what iv gathered, the odds are stacked against me, but i tried last year, and ill try again this year:gj:
ill be sure to keep any progress(or lack there of) in this thread!
spooky

Goodluck! Keep us updated, I don't know much about hybrids but I was talking to a guy the other day at the expo about hybrids and I was informed that most hybrids come out sterile?? Is he full of it, or just trying to keep me out of the game? LOL

Don't mean to hyjack the thread at all, I was just curious.

Cheers.

Awesome Spooky! I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you!!

I'm hoping to have my chance at burmballs sometime soon, and I know my man would love some bateaters. Anyway, I wish you all the luck and please keep us updated :)

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Originally Posted by decensored

Goodluck! Keep us updated, I don't know much about hybrids but I was talking to a guy the other day at the expo about hybrids and I was informed that most hybrids come out sterile?? Is he full of it, or just trying to keep me out of the game? LOL

Don't mean to hyjack the thread at all, I was just curious.

Cheers.

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im not completaly sure about that,,, but what i gather, the hatch rate is reduced significantly in hybrids.,,,, so are most hybrids sterile?? i would say no, but is the hatch rate reduced in hybrids, from what i understand , yes.
does that make sence??? LOL
spooky

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Originally Posted by heathers*bps

Awesome Spooky! I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you!!

I'm hoping to have my chance at burmballs sometime soon, and I know my man would love some bateaters. Anyway, I wish you all the luck and please keep us updated :)

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will do!
spooky

Wow...this has the potential to be something really incredible.

Good luck, I will be following this project for sure!

I cant wait to see some pied superballs,o hope everything goes alright, has someone ever produced a bloodXball? I think I remember hearing in another thread that 'superballs' were borneoXballs and that bloods and balls arent compatible? Im gonna go try to find that thread

Dude, if you make pied superballs that would be bananas! I am very interested in this. I too have thought about messing with a superball project in the future, but I was going to use a Codom BP. I like the idea of recessives. Maybe try breeding a male pied to a female hybrid offspring as well in the future? Just an idea! :gj:

Wow this is an awesome project :gj:!

Keep us updated on locks and such.

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Originally Posted by cmack91

I cant wait to see some pied superballs,o hope everything goes alright, has someone ever produced a bloodXball? I think I remember hearing in another thread that 'superballs' were borneoXballs and that bloods and balls arent compatible? Im gonna go try to find that thread

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nevermind, i found out that Ben Siegel has made them

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

Dude, if you make pied superballs that would be bananas! I am very interested in this. I too have thought about messing with a superball project in the future, but I was going to use a Codom BP. I like the idea of recessives. Maybe try breeding a male pied to a female hybrid offspring as well in the future? Just an idea! :gj:

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iv thought about that, but im afraid that breeding a BP back to an F2 would stray away from the "superball" features, making it resemble a BP more than a blood.
to me, a superball is one thing, but going beond that is something that im not comfortable doing.
thanks for the reply, and good luck if you choose to work with these!
spooky

spankingly nice parents. Good luck.

How big is that female blood? She looks humongous!

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

spankingly nice parents. Good luck.

How big is that female blood? She looks humongous!

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thanks!
im not sure of her weight as to date,, but the last time i checked her it seems like she was 13 / 15 lbs???? ill need to check my records. when i seperate them in a few days, ill get another weight on her. shees about 4ft long.

spooky

Great project spooky! I actually thought this was the road you were going when you said its a recessive gene. :)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Looks like a sweet project bud, good luck to many healthy baby superballs! :gj:

I will definitely be watching this. Keep us updated for sure. Blood balls have been made before but not too many people have added in the ball morphs so this will be an interesting project. :D

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

Im starting a hybrid project this year, and if sucessful, it will keep me busy for the next few years trying to acomplish my goal. im not going to try to keep this a secret, because im sure that anyone that is working with blood/ball hybrids is way ahead of me.
so here is my plan.. im wanting to introduce a recessive gene into the hybrid. if sucessful this first breeding atempt, i will hold back everything. once the hatchlings (F1) reach adulthood, i will breed them to each other hopefuly producing a visual F2.
the first pairing i did, the female blood showed no intrest, sence then, i have talked to a blood python breeder and they gave me some tips on blood breeding, so hopefuly this time ill be more sucessful.
i started this thread for those of us that are interseted in "superball" hybrids, or just hybrids in general.
after seeing past hybrid threads, i can truly say that i (persionaly) will not comment on any negative, or off topic feedback because i dont want it turning into that kind of thread. if you want to participate in that kind of thread, im sure there are some to be found.:colbert:
sooooooooo,,, heres what im doing!

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/w.../WP_000353.jpg:O:gj:
spooky

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Honestly, if you do not want a hybrid thread turning into a negative thread, you should not post a thread about hybrids. Every hybrid thread I have ever read has turned into a negative thread, and for good reason.

its been about 4 days sence i paired these guys up, and as far as i can tell, there has been no action.
i have read, and talked to people about temps and light cycles for blood pythons, and have got diferent opinions on both, so i decided to start with the light cycles. about 2 weeks ago i started cycling my lighting to 6 hours of light. in a few days, ill be taking this guy (BP) out and puting in another male pied for about a week,, then, if i see no action, ill lower the temps as well as runing the 6 hour light cycle and start the pairing sequence over again. both of my male pieds have locked with other females this season, so i know that there more than willing to participate:D,, but now, its just trying to convience the gal.
ill keep ya posted!
spooky

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Honestly, if you do not want a hybrid thread turning into a negative thread, you should not post a thread about hybrids. Every hybrid thread I have ever read has turned into a negative thread, and for good reason.

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100% Correct. I truly agree.

Conditioning a female blood for breeding is a year long process. It really never ends. Throwing new stimuli at her now after her not being conditioned will probably not do it for her. I'm not lookin to stir the pot but an all of a sudden photoperiod change and a temp drop just won't do it. Especially if you want this girl to be receptive to something that is not a blood python, she's gotta be REALLY in the mood. You know I'm not a fan of the project but I still would never hand out bad husbandry tips.

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Originally Posted by bwt501

Conditioning a female blood for breeding is a year long process. It really never ends. Throwing new stimuli at her now after her not being conditioned will probably not do it for her. I'm not lookin to stir the pot but an all of a sudden photoperiod change and a temp drop just won't do it. Especially if you want this girl to be receptive to something that is not a blood python, she's gotta be REALLY in the mood. You know I'm not a fan of the project but I still would never hand out bad husbandry tips.

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thanks for the reply. and your not stirring the pot. iv never bred bloods, but iv had one for a little more than 5 years, and the other for maby 3. im completly open to learning anything that i can about breeding them. if it doesent work out for me this year, ill take your advice and start conditioning as of now for next year. iv bread BP's, and as you probabaly know,, theres not a whole lot to it, so this is all new to me. we all gotta start somewhere.
i apriciate your post. even though your not a fan of the idea, your still humble enough to share your advice.
thanks again
spooky

If you don't like hybrids, don't enter the thread. Simple as that.

Maybe she needs some candlelight and some nice music to get her in the mood. :D Actually I know nothing about breeding bloods, but I really hope she becomes receptive. Can you imagine what the pied gene will look like in a hybrid like that? :banana:

Why would someone not like hybrids? Personally i think it would be really cool, not even just in snakes but in any species. As long as the person doing it was responsible and kept records of all of the breedings to actually make it legitimate then i dont see why someone would have a problem with it? If someone could tell me why, without ripping my head off lol, would appreciate it :)

I was a burmese and reticulated python hybrid. It's called a bateater. :D Search for bateater snake on google and you'll see it. Good luck with your hybrid en devour. I personally think hybrids are a treasure trove of potential.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Why would someone not like hybrids? Personally i think it would be really cool, not even just in snakes but in any species. As long as the person doing it was responsible and kept records of all of the breedings to actually make it legitimate then i dont see why someone would have a problem with it? If someone could tell me why, without ripping my head off lol, would appreciate it :)

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Mostly it's because you have your breeders who dont believe that it's natural and that the hybrids produced are "mutts" which is true because they have mixed genes and not pure bred. I think it's silly really. If you're against hybrids, dont enter the threads just to troll the people who do like it. Just my two cents.

Also some people have fears that one person will end up being irresponsible and sell a hybrid animal as a true ball python and end up muddying up the genes and screwing over everyone else, until it's 'almost impossible to find a pure bloodline animal', which I still don't see happening honestly. I can see a few mix ups happening, maybe. But we've already seen that a lot of hybrids have enough trouble producing a single successful clutch and end up with a lot of slugs, I can't imagine them over populating and taking over the ball python world. If I had a weird 'dinker' that didn't quite act like a ball python, ended up slugging out most of the time, and just had some weird quirks(personality wise, size wise, care wise), or even had a suspicious or unknown background... I'd probably start seeing if it was a very subtle hybrid! :O

I've followed hybrid breeding only forums before just to see.. Not many successful clutches seem to go on there, even when they know the breeding had been successful before. Hybrids are challenging to make, not something a beginner is likely to have much success with.

It's possible of course, and I can see where people are concerned. But with how huge the ball python world is (and how many people won't buy from anyone they don't even know very well) I think most lines of BPs will be safe. Maybe picking up a dinker on craigslist will be a gamble--but with unknown care, chances of illnesses, and of course the fact that the dinker might not ever prove out isn't it already a gamble?

I can really see both sides, I just don't get worked up about it. People breeding hybrids should be very careful and record everything. People who don't want hybrids should keep an eye out and just be knowledgeable and they'll be able to avoid them. But I don't think it's good to push those breeding hybrids further into the dark. That could end up simply making records even harder to find as they won't post them online or else they'd be scolded and their reputation would be shot. We don't want hybrids becoming an underground thing. THAT'S how the whole zombie snake hybrid apocalypse would start, I swear.

just as an update, i have replaced my first male pied with a second male pied. i dident notice any locks with the first pairings. also, im continuing with the 6 hours of daylight, and i have taken away the hot spot. the temp in the enclosure is 77/78*f.
i understand (from learning in this thread) that conditioning blood pythons is a year long process,, so hopefuly ill just get lucky this year with a few months of conditioning. if anything,, im gaining info for next year.
spooky

Do you have a way of scenting the BP with a male blood? Maube it would make her more interrested?

Maybe i am not getting something right. With the recessive gene. You will breed the pied with the blood in hopes of a piedsuper. But you wont want to hold back a superball het pied female and breed her back to the male pied ball because that will make more of a ball python look and like 50% blood.
or if you bred the babies back to each other then you will get some blood with slight ball python look and vise versa.

I am just thinking it might be a hard project because in my head. The only way to get that pied in the blood would be to make an F2 or 50% blood ball python. Which might or could be mistaken for a full pied ball. More look of a ball python but with a bigger belly and not as around head. It just wont give a look of a real super ball.


BTW: We have super balls in the reptile shop i am working in now and they are cheaper then i thought. But they have an attitude of the bloods for sure.

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Originally Posted by Twist

I was a burmese and reticulated python hybrid. It's called a bateater. :D Search for bateater snake on google and you'll see it. Good luck with your hybrid en devour. I personally think hybrids are a treasure trove of potential.

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Bateaters have got to be some of the most beautiful snakes I've ever seen. Boy would I love one of those! :P

@Spooky- I'll definitely be following this project. :gj: Good luck! :)

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Originally Posted by cmack91

Do you have a way of scenting the BP with a male blood? Maube it would make her more interrested?

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yes, i do.. i am using sheds of male blood python, and of a female ball python.
also, im taking used substrate papers from each and puting in the enclosure too.
spooky

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Originally Posted by pinkeye714

Maybe i am not getting something right. With the recessive gene. You will breed the pied with the blood in hopes of a piedsuper. But you wont want to hold back a superball het pied female and breed her back to the male pied ball because that will make more of a ball python look and like 50% blood.
or if you bred the babies back to each other then you will get some blood with slight ball python look and vise versa.

I am just thinking it might be a hard project because in my head. The only way to get that pied in the blood would be to make an F2 or 50% blood ball python. Which might or could be mistaken for a full pied ball. More look of a ball python but with a bigger belly and not as around head. It just wont give a look of a real super ball.


BTW: We have super balls in the reptile shop i am working in now and they are cheaper then i thought. But they have an attitude of the bloods for sure.

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if im understanding what your saying,, you are right. if i do get lucky enough to breed my blood with my BP, i will then have superballs (F1) het for pied.
if i breed a female F1 back to a pied this will deviate form what im looking for,, and yes, it would probabaly look more like a BP than a "superball".
but,, if i take a female F1 (het for pied) and breed it to a male F1 (het for pied),,, then the F2 stands a chance of being a visual pied superball.
as long as you breed "superballs"X "superballs" there going to be superballs. if you start breeding superballs back to the origional species, thell start resembling the origional species. this is one of the main concerns that people have with hybrids..
hope iv made some sence.
spooky

i was thinking about trying to do this but i wasnt sure if it was possible or what would happen. i didnt want some flying-monkey-bats coming out or something. good luck, this is very cool.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

yes, i do.. i am using sheds of male blood python, and of a female ball python.
also, im taking used substrate papers from each and puting in the enclosure too.
spooky

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so has the pied shown any interest? i wonder if he would go after the blood without her being scented, or are they both completly ignoring eachother?

sometimes the pied is cruzing the enclosure, and cruzing on top of her, but i havent seen him trying to posture her. she still seems unintrested..'
also, i havent mentioned yet, but i have put a hide in the T10 so the ball can get into. when i check them in the daytime, he stays in the hide but at night hees out roaming.
spooky

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

if im understanding what your saying,, you are right. if i do get lucky enough to breed my blood with my BP, i will then have superballs (F1) het for pied.
if i breed a female F1 back to a pied this will deviate form what im looking for,, and yes, it would probabaly look more like a BP than a "superball".
but,, if i take a female F1 (het for pied) and breed it to a male F1 (het for pied),,, then the F2 stands a chance of being a visual pied superball.
as long as you breed "superballs"X "superballs" there going to be superballs. if you start breeding superballs back to the origional species, thell start resembling the origional species. this is one of the main concerns that people have with hybrids..
hope iv made some sence.
spooky

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That made sense to me :]
I was not even sure what i posted made sense but glad we understand each other aha.
What will you do with the babies that look more like a blood, as well as the others who turn out more like a ball?

I am following this project as well. it it interesting.

Call me a negative Nancy but i have a feeling that the pied gene will only attach itself to the other ball python gene. Meaning the only offspring that will have the pied is the ones that look more like a ball python than blood. :ninja:

from what i understand, all of the F1's will look like "super balls". im not sure that half of the clutch will resemble one and the other half the other. as iv said before, im learning about this, so ill look in to that. regardless, ill be keeping all ofspring for some years.
about the nancy part,, i truly dont know about that, iv talked to a few DVM's about that,, and in theory, the pied gene is not selective as to wich baby it goes to.
spooky

See, and here is where it starts to get messy and muddy...

I'm going to simplify this (what happens in genetics, zygote production is much messier in real life) for the sake of understanding. For F1 superballs, each parent contributes half the genetic material (one half of each chromosome). They are half and half. If you then breed two of these, you have no control which half of each chromosome ends up in egg and sperm - the ball python half or the blood half. It's possible in this next set of offspring to get any range of percentages, and any range of appearances. It's here that offspring passed on can get confused if passed on to others. You don't know that they will stay in someone's possession for 30+ years.

I'm a dork, so I drew a little sample just looking at 6 chromosomes. Sometimes it's easier seeing it visually.
http://www.angelfire.com/mn3/apelila/images/IMG.jpg

Of course, this is assuming their chromosomes match up and that there are no crossovers, etc during zygote production. It still gets the idea across.

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Originally Posted by aahmn

See, and here is where it starts to get messy and muddy...

I'm going to simplify this (what happens in genetics, zygote production is much messier in real life) for the sake of understanding. For F1 superballs, each parent contributes half the genetic material (one half of each chromosome). They are half and half. If you then breed two of these, you have no control which half of each chromosome ends up in egg and sperm - the ball python half or the blood half. It's possible in this next set of offspring to get any range of percentages, and any range of appearances. It's here that offspring passed on can get confused if passed on to others. You don't know that they will stay in someone's possession for 30+ years.

I'm a dork, so I drew a little sample just looking at 6 chromosomes. Sometimes it's easier seeing it visually.
http://www.angelfire.com/mn3/apelila/images/IMG.jpg

Of course, this is assuming their chromosomes match up and that there are no crossovers, etc during zygote production. It still gets the idea across.

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thanks for the post!
i think that i understand what your saying,, though im gonna need to study your diagram a little longer for it to sink in LOL.
i went back to the Roussis Reptiles web sight and even there he describes the F2's carying a look of their own. if you look at the diference of the F1's and F2's on their page, it helps explain what you have stated.
BUT,,, i gotta say, even the F2's look of less resemblance to the origional parents... to me, it would be almost imposible to confuse a F1, or expecially a F2 to the origional BP/ blood python parents.
now, if you talk about breeding a "super ball" back to an origional parent, i could see that getting a little iffy.....
thanks again for your post, and please feel free coment again. you brought new things to my attention.. like iv always said, im learning.
spooky

any more progress here spooky?

From what I've seen from other hybrid breedings on other forums, this will be a while before anything happens. Patience seems to be one of the biggest parts of projects like these. Not to mention, some snakes simply will never show interest! Just another reason why despite quite a few people being interested in producing hybrids we don't see too many around. Isn't quite as simple as breeding ball pythons, lol! A lot of people lose interest or projects never work out. It's always interesting when they do though! So good luck, spooky!

not a damn thing. im gonna pick up a few Barry White CD's tomorrow.......
i dunno, from what im understanding, these blood/ball hybrids are just a luck of the draw type thing. i havent posted any updates,, because there hasent been any. ill keep on keeping on, and give it my best shot, but thats all i can do.
soon im thinking about geting into blood python morphs, and ill be geting a few neo's. that will leave me about 2 to 3 more years to try at these hybrids, and after that, ill be refocusing my blood efforts.
just to keep ya posted in the future, ill try to make it a point to reup this post no matter what the news is.
thanks man
ill keep yall posted.
spooky

I figured there wouldnt be much, but thought I'd ask anyway, good luck :gj: