U.S. lowers it's flag.

I know this is probably going to bring a bunch of mixed feeling to the table, but, the war is over! At least the war the public knows about is over. How do you all feel about it? Personally, I'm very pleased we get to bring our troops home. There are a lot of young men who have died for reasons unknown in my eyes. Yes terrorism is a bad thing and needs to be counter acted. On the other hand, in the 9 years we have been there it just doesn't seem we have made any progress. They still hate us and will do what ever they can in their power to keep that statement obvious. Not to mention this war has costed the U.S. way more money than we had at a time when the country cannot even support it's people. Again, what are all of your feelings on this?

http://news.yahoo.com/panetta-iraq-c...102108022.html

I am happy that the troops are coming home. I've personally lost two very good friends of mine. My ex is over there now, and is still one of my best friends. I am really excited about the fact that he is going to be coming home. :)

I am happy that the troops are coming home, but it's only temporary. Our government will find another war to fight. And in four years when I graduate, i'll be ready and willing to be on the front lines. Our government owns this country, it used to be by the people and for the people, but it's all about money and power now. Did you know that they can impose military law if they so choose? Meaning that anyone who steps outside their home would either be shot or arrested. Anyways while I think that the government has way to much power and this is supposed to be OUR country and not the government's, I am more than willing to fight for it.

I thought about joning to become a scout sniper since I was in about 7th grade. When the time came they wouldn't let me join because I wasn't off my medication for the allotted time period. I'm rather glad I didn't join though because I would probably be dead right now. Part of me still wants in, but the rest knows better. I'm glad they are coming home, but they'll be shipped right to Afghanistan once they return.

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We never should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place. There was absolutely NO connection with 911, the war in Afganistan was far from finished and it was major cause for our government to go broke! Not all the piddily things they are arguing about in the budget now.

100,000's Iraqi's died, more than Saddam ever hurt. Not to mention all the American families who lost loved ones and for what?


Only oil(greed) and revenge, not two very good human characteristics.


There was NO threat whatsoever!

All they are doing is shifting those numbers over to Afghanistan. Nothing is over.

i agree with spitzu, i know its nice to think the war os over but they are taking troops out of iraq and putting them somehwere else, a few of my buddies in the marine corps just got deployed

I've been told that Saddam Hussein was actually only killing/hurting people that he knew or suspected had connections with Al-Qaeda.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

We never should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place. There was absolutely NO connection with 911, the war in Afganistan was far from finished and it was major cause for our government to go broke! Not all the piddily things they are arguing about in the budget now.

100,000's Iraqi's died, more than Saddam ever hurt. Not to mention all the American families who lost loved ones and for what?


Only oil(greed) and revenge, not two very good human characteristics.


There was NO threat whatsoever!

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The reported estimates of the amount of people killed under Saddam Hussein are close to 1,000,000. That's not a good enough reason to have taken him out? You should go to Iraq and see how the people live there. Then you should go look at the palaces he had. Huge compounds most with either Olympic sized pools, with lakes, on a river or all 3. They were lavishly furnished and decorated. Gold everywhere. Hand carved wooden walls, marble from floor to ceiling. Saddam and his clan lived like kings stealing all of their countries wealth, while the rest of the people lived in mud huts.

The wars did not cause our country to go broke. That was the doing of corporate greed, big banks and Wall Street. You can also throw in the world economy which has played a role in it also.

Documented Iraqi deaths due to the war in Iraq? 104,080-113,728. Compared to 800,000-1,000,000 I think Saddam wins the death count there. Saddam was a threat to the world. There were training camps in Iraq. He may not have had WMD's, but he was still a threat not to mention an evil and sadistic person.

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Originally Posted by evan385

I've been told that Saddam Hussein was actually only killing/hurting people that he knew or suspected had connections with Al-Qaeda.

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Absolutely false.

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Originally Posted by evan385

I've been told that Saddam Hussein was actually only killing/hurting people that he knew or suspected had connections with Al-Qaeda.

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Dipping your toes into the sympathy pool? Don't forget about the few hundred thousand Kurds he slaughtered in the 80s. And the few hundred thousand other people that he had executed for dissent.

I should watch the news more. Can't believe everything you hear from word of mouth.

Especially from bleeding heart hippies :P

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Originally Posted by spitzu

Dipping your toes into the sympathy pool? Don't forget about the few hundred thousand Kurds he slaughtered in the 80s. And the few hundred thousand other people that he had executed for dissent.

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Not at all, I know almost nothing about him or what he did. I was simply stating what I had heard. But I do know that he was comparable to Hitler with how many people that he killed and I do wish that they didn't just kill him. They should have gave him lifetime imprisonment in a cell very similar to the brig in for AWOL soldiers, with four concrete walls, a door of iron bars and barely enough room to move if at all. Would be a much better punishment than killing him.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The reported estimates of the amount of people killed under Saddam Hussein are close to 1,000,000. That's not a good enough reason to have taken him out? You should go to Iraq and see how the people live there. Then you should go look at the palaces he had. Huge compounds most with either Olympic sized pools, with lakes, on a river or all 3. They were lavishly furnished and decorated. Gold everywhere. Hand carved wooden walls, marble from floor to ceiling. Saddam and his clan lived like kings stealing all of their countries wealth, while the rest of the people lived in mud huts.

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One could make the same argument comparing the White House, and other homes that our Politicians live in, to the way many US Citizens live.

That should be of no concern to our Gov. and is certainly no reason to invade another country and overthrow the regime.
Our military is not supposed to be a world wide, wealth redistribution force.

We should mind our own business, and confront our own issues.
:salute:

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Originally Posted by spitzu

Especially from bleeding heart hippies :P

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

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I have no sympathy for that man, I only wish that he would have suffered much longer instead of just being killed.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

One could make the same argument comparing the White House, and other homes that our Politicians live in, to the way many US Citizens live.

That should be of no concern to our Gov. and is certainly no reason to invade another country and overthrow the regime.
Our military is not supposed to be a world wide, wealth redistribution force.

We should mind our own business, and confront our own issues.
:salute:

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How can you compare the way we live with the way they live....? I'm speechless. Americans are very spoiled and much of the world would give anything to live like we do..

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Originally Posted by rjk890

One could make the same argument comparing the White House, and other homes that our Politicians live in, to the way many US Citizens live.

That should be of no concern to our Gov. and is certainly no reason to invade another country and overthrow the regime.
Our military is not supposed to be a world wide, wealth redistribution force.

We should mind our own business, and confront our own issues.
:salute:

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Sorry but anyone trying to make that argument would have no grounds to stand on. Unless they were trying to say that our Gov was crooked. Sorry but no matter how you look at it there is a big difference between living in a house in the U.S. and living in a mud hut in Iraq. Even living in the ghetto is better. The ghetto is bad only because of how it it taken care of by its inhabitants.

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Originally Posted by evan385

How can you compare the way we live with the way they live....? I'm speechless. Americans are very spoiled and much of the world would give anything to live like we do..

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Read my post again, and tell me where I compared the way we live, with the way they live.

(BTW: Things are changing.)

Guys,

It would be really nice if we could keep this on the main forums rather than having to move it to the quarantine room.

If it is too hot a topic for people to resist then so be it - but lets try. :please:

Nothing said so far has crossed any lines I just thought saying this early on might make sure it stays that way. :salute:


dr del

They is a much much MUCH greater difference in the way that Saddam and his thugs lived and the way those dirt poor rags for clothes people live in Iraq, than the way U.S. Congress lives and the way we EXTREMELY WEALTHY by the world's standards Americans live.

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Quote TessadasExotics:
Sorry but anyone trying to make that argument would have no grounds to stand on. Unless they were trying to say that our Gov was crooked. Sorry but no matter how you look at it there is a big difference between living in a house in the U.S. and living in a mud hut in Iraq. Even living in the ghetto is better. The ghetto is bad only because of how it it taken care of by its inhabitants.

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Our Gov. crooked ?
No...
:rolleyes:

You guys are aware that we do have homeless people here in America, right ?

It's not like the less fortunate, or those that fail to excel in this country are given a nice home in some "Inner City."

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Originally Posted by rjk890

Our Gov. crooked ?
No...
:rolleyes:

You guys are aware that we do have homeless people here in America, right ?

It's not like the less fortunate, or those that fail to excel in this country are given a nice home in some "Inner City."

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But we have homeless shelters where they can go to at least be warm and be fed, plus we have food pantries and soup kitchens, Goodwill and The Salvation Army to help poor people. Many poor people are poor because of drugs or alcohol and would sooner beg for money so they can buy more drugs or alcohol than to get help or be fed. But at least our poor have that choice to go to a shelter or a soup kitchen.

Poor is not poor the world round! Ever see an emaciated homeless person in America with a distended belly because their stomach is expanding with gas from consuming itself? The poor here in America have lives that would be the absolute dream of poor and homeless from other countries! That is a Fact! Ever see gangs of homeless 3-6 yr olds huddling together so the older homeless kids can't steal from them and huffing glue or even worse fermented feces, just to dull the hunger pains? No one has seen that in America and it does exist else where!


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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I know this is probably going to bring a bunch of mixed feeling to the table, but, the war is over!

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Not really accurate. The war we have been fighting for the last 10 years is the Global War on Terror, which is certainly not over. We are still sending many troops to Afghanistan for Operation Enduring Freedom, and we also still have troops in the Horn Of Africa.

The operation in Iraq may have ended, but the war we are fighting is not over.

Whatever.
Y'all sound like you believe the U.N should seize our nations wealth, and redistribute it around the world.

If the United States of America continues on it's current path, we will be a third world country before long.

We need to address our own issues here at home, and let the rest of the world address their own issues.

G.W. got revenge for the assassination attempt on his daddy.. we can finally bring our troops home after too many years, too many dollars, and too much suffering.

Being retired Army (2006) and been to Iraq (2004) I am glad to see my fellow Soldiers coming home. Everyone seems to forget that this was a timeline that was agreed upon back before the new administration came to Washington.
My problem is the fact that our top military commanders say it isn't quite time to leave yet and there are reports that we are bringing home the troops but increasing the civilian contractors there????
HERE's one report
In the speech saying the war is over and we have fostered a great relationship with the Iraqi people, there are hundreds gathering in Fallujah burning the US Flag to celebrate us leaving.
Hundreds in Fallujah burn U.S. flag
As far as cost (money) check out This story. The "stimulus" cost more than the entire war. (Again money wise).

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Originally Posted by RetiredJedi

I am glad to see my fellow Soldiers coming home. Everyone seems to forget that this was a timeline that was agreed upon back before the new administration came to Washington.
My problem is the fact that our top military commanders say it isn't quite time to leave yet and there are reports that we are bringing home the troops but increasing the civilian contractors there????

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I completely agree with you Jedi and have also been there & done that. Being Active Duty myself for the last 14 years, I'm really not enjoying the feeling that all of our men and women who have died in Iraq is for what amounts to almost nothing. For anyone to think that us leaving a country, we basically demolished, in disrepair is 'a responsible act' - then they are just as ignorant as the politicians who made the deal to leave without ‘finishing the job’ in the first place.

The War on Terror is far from over and take it for what it's worth, but as long as there are countries like Iran, N. Korea, and China with power to invoke terror - the War on Terror will never be over. Our former Commander in Chief clearly wasn't the brightest individual when he allowed his staff to come up with that title.

As for the monetary cost associated with Operation Iraqi Freedom, the economic growth during the initial occupation and over the last 9 years has made up for the dollar amount spent for the US to be involved. The economic hardship we're facing is due in fact to the poor leadership of our politicians and overall greed of Big Business - Banks & Wall Street included. For anyone thinking the war efforts cost the US too much money should do a little bit of research on how military campaigns actually promote industrial & economic growth.

Or this move back home could be due to the NADD act coming into law come 2012.

Many say Obama will Veto it but its 50 50 on whats going to happen.

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Originally Posted by RetiredJedi

Being retired Army (2006) and been to Iraq (2004) I am glad to see my fellow Soldiers coming home. Everyone seems to forget that this was a timeline that was agreed upon back before the new administration came to Washington.
My problem is the fact that our top military commanders say it isn't quite time to leave yet and there are reports that we are bringing home the troops but increasing the civilian contractors there????
HERE's one report
In the speech saying the war is over and we have fostered a great relationship with the Iraqi people, there are hundreds gathering in Fallujah burning the US Flag to celebrate us leaving.
Hundreds in Fallujah burn U.S. flag
As far as cost (money) check out This story. The "stimulus" cost more than the entire war. (Again money wise).

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Agreed! Good, bad, or indifferent we are there and leaving at the wrong time can be very bad! Pol pot any one?


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Originally Posted by evan385

I should watch the news more. Can't believe everything you hear from word of mouth.

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You can't exactly have trust in the news, they lie to Americans faces every day.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Or this move back home could be due to the NADD act coming into law come 2012.

Many say Obama will Veto it but its 50 50 on whats going to happen.

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I would have to agree with you Rich, if he doesn't veto it, we'll all be screwed.

Would most of you agree that without the Iraq war the Arab spring would not have come about?;)

Democracy is now spreading. As much as some of you may hate W it looks like his democratization of the Mid east is slowly coming along. He was thinking long term and never wavered, that's why some of us respect the heck out of him and his decisions.

Our country gets it right most of the time, while it will be bloody at first, that whole part of the world will be better for it...... Are we forgetting our bloody past? Look what came out of it the most powerful nation in history:salute:

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Not to mention this war has costed the U.S. way more money than we had at a time when the country cannot even support it's people.

http://news.yahoo.com/panetta-iraq-c...102108022.html

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Not trying to pick a fight or anything but the the country isn't suppose to support it's people. The people are suppose to support themselves... Not really a daycare system.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

Would most of you agree that without the Iraq war the Arab spring would not have come about?;)

Democracy is now spreading. As much as some of you may hate W it looks like his democratization of the Mid east is slowly coming along. He was thinking long term and never wavered, that's why some of us respect the heck out of him and his decisions.

Our country gets it right most of the time, while it will be bloody at first, that whole part of the world will be better for it...... Are we forgetting our bloody past? Look what came out of it the most powerful nation in history:salute:

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We have to be careful about the whole "democracy" thing.

A republic is a state in which the exercise of the sovereign power is lodged in representatives elected by the people. (Webster 1828).
A constitutional republic is a state in which the representatives (and other officials) are limited and restricted by a constitution. This country (USA) was established as a constitutional republic.
A democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
I realize you were talking about other countries becoming democracies but we aren't even sure who is gonna be in charge there

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Originally Posted by ShortStop

Not trying to pick a fight or anything but the the country isn't suppose to support it's people. The people are suppose to support themselves... Not really a daycare system.

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Yet, we are supposed to support the government? Why are we paying taxes? So we can force democracy on other countries, or help the system help us when we need it? That can be a long drawn out discussion and will most likely be a viscious circle of arguements.

For the record in my original post, I said "the war is over! At least the war the public knows about is over". They are not openly stating they are sending from one location to another. We will always from this point forward be in that country, wether it's Blackwater or uniformed personel.

Nothing to get excited about. Don't worry, they'll find another way to line their pockets at the expense of disillusioned, well-meaning Americans soon enough.

They only tell you what they want you to hear, they only show you what they want you to fear.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Yet, we are supposed to support the government? Why are we paying taxes? So we can force democracy on other countries, or help the system help us when we need it? That can be a long drawn out discussion and will most likely be a viscious circle of arguements.

For the record in my original post, I said "the war is over! At least the war the public knows about is over". They are not openly stating they are sending from one location to another. We will always from this point forward be in that country, wether it's Blackwater or uniformed personel.

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We are suppose to support the government. Because the government is suppose to be FOR the people. That is not necessarily the case anymore...

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Originally Posted by ShortStop

We are suppose to support the government. Because the government is suppose to be FOR the people. That is not necessarily the case anymore...

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The government actually works for us and if they fail to do their job we can fire them.

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Originally Posted by RetiredJedi

The government actually works for us and if they fail to do their job we can fire them.

Go Noles >>-----;;>>

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When I said support them I was referring to the previous question asked about why we pay taxes. I did NOT mean support whatever decisions they decide to make.

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Originally Posted by ShortStop

When I said support them I was referring to the previous question asked about why we pay taxes. I did NOT mean support whatever decisions they decide to make.

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Cool...understand.

This most recent war in Iraq should not have happened because we should have either dealt with Sadaam the first time around or washed our hands of it. It is an example of what happens when you halfway address a situation--it comes back to bite you in the keister.

BTW, war as a form of diplomacy, as in win their hearts and minds, is a gross futility. People forget that war is what happens when diplomacy has failed and a conflict can only be resolved by the stronger party/parties imposing their will upon the weaker. Sometimes war is necessary and I'd point to WWII as one that needed to be fought because the Nazi party not only had steamrollered over Germany and surrounding countries but was gaining enough strength to potentially dominate the planet if someone hadn't stood up and imposed their will that they had gone too far.

Then, there are tragically stupid wars. Vietnam. The war with Vietnam was not a war about anything in Vietnam. It was a pissing contest between the US and China. Since we were not willing to take on China, we should have stayed the heck out. Either go to war or do not go to war. Anything else burns up lives in vain on both sides of the table until someone decides to call it quits.

Iraq was kind of a stupid war. There were indications that WMDs existed. Saddam was not exactly a trustworthy kinda guy when he said there weren't. Heck, I'm glad the SOB got take out--it should have been done ages ago. But he was dead a good while back and we've been involved in what amounts to a family feud within a country. We should have gotten out a ways back. The factions within that land have to come to their own solutions. We cannot prevent intermural bloodshed by being unwelcome referees.

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Originally Posted by ShortStop

We are suppose to support the government. Because the government is suppose to be FOR the people. That is not necessarily the case anymore...

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Right. So, your grandpa who worked 30-50 years for a money hungry boss who decided not to match his retirement is out of money now and receives SSI. Are you saying he no longer deserves support from the people he supported his whole life? Does he not deserve medical care? This is the support I'm talking about. Life is tough right now for everybody and we are still paying taxes, in fact, there are talking about increasing the taxes even more and have done so recently. Your saying we should not recieve support in times like this. What about the 12,000,000 Americans who are going to run out of benefits on January 1st if the government doesn't reach an agreement by December 31st this year? Mind you, a lot of those people are not scum bags, they have worked a long time in established careers(paying taxes the whole time, some of them paying large amounts). IMO, your "daycare" statement was cold hearted and uneducated. The money would have been well spent here in our country taking care of people like this instead of funding a political war...

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Or this move back home could be due to the NADD act coming into law come 2012.

Many say Obama will Veto it but its 50 50 on whats going to happen.

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Rich does it have anything to do with this??

http://news.yahoo.com/us-congress-cl...213727175.html

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Rich does it have anything to do with this??

http://news.yahoo.com/us-congress-cl...213727175.html

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Corrected. It passed the House on December 14th, 2011(283-136) and passed the Senate on December 15th, 2011(86-13) and is expected to be signed by Obama today(December 16th, 2011). He did threaten veto, but, has withdrawn the threat.

Information can be found here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...horization_Act

I'm having a hard time with the new law that allows the government to detain American citizens, SUSPECTED of terroists acts, indefinately without a trial. Does the IV and VI Amendment mean anything? I have my own beliefs about someone who leaves and fights for the other side on the battlefield or actual terrorists. But to hold American citizens SUSPECTED of terrorism without a trial just opens doors to other things. That means that the talking heads in the government get to decide what is considered a suspected terrorist.

"Military given go-ahead to detain US terrorist suspects without trial"

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Originally Posted by RetiredJedi

I'm having a hard time with the new law that allows the government to detain American citizens, SUSPECTED of terroists acts, indefinately without a trial. Does the IV and VI Amendment mean anything? I have my own beliefs about someone who leaves and fights for the other side on the battlefield or actual terrorists. But to hold American citizens SUSPECTED of terrorism without a trial just opens doors to other things. That means that the talking heads in the government get to decide what is considered a suspected terrorist.

"Military given go-ahead to detain US terrorist suspects without trial"

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The funniest thing of it all is the fact that Obama ordered the shutdown of Gitmo and now he is going to approve a bill like this?

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

The funniest thing of it all is the fact that Obama ordered the shutdown of Gitmo and now he is going to approve a bill like this?

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Good point. I almost forgot about the shut down part.

Not Only is he approving it, but hes tossing Bill of Rights out the window.