Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

So! Yes, i feed my lizard live worms, live crickets. I feed my big fish live other fish. I have tarantulas, and have had frogs, etc. Bugs seem to not be a problem to feed to other bugs. Fish seem to be okay to feed to turtles, frogs, other fish.

So...Rodents to snakes.

I want an honest, real reason YOU feed live food to your snakes.
I know the monicaled cobra only eats other snakes, though in captivity most people do transition to rats. Even frozen/thawed.

I know some snakes eat fish, and some eat lizards. I haven't heard of anyone trying to feed dead lizards, though.

But still....unless there is some way to trim the teeth, as well as the nails...what are the benifits of feeding live rodents to snakes, other than you get to watch them strike and kill a rodent?
If you have a live food eating snake that refuses dead food....do you occasionally still try to transition to F/T?
What do you do for your snake if it's bitten, or damaged from it's live food?

Just wondering. Honestly! Not trying to start something. It's not really like, OH poor rodent! It's more like, i worry about the snake's livlihood. I personally have three rescues that are covered in scars, huge missing scale spots, and one with a damaged nostril.
I'm honestly trying to comprehend the reason live food is used. These snakes actually didn't have a problem at all eating f/t right when i got them, so i'm just totally wondering how someone could let them get so damaged and still keep feeding them live.

Expand my mind! lol

sometimes its just really hard to get them over to frozen thawed. I prefer to feed dead animals but sometimes its not really an option.

I am planning on starting my hatchlings on F/T right away in the spring. I know for breeders who have their own rodent colonies its just easier to feed live. It takes time and money to cull animals and it's just easier for them.

Personally I plan on culling and freezing or giving PK all of my snakes when I get my babies coming in..

i fed live for over 5 years, honestly at first (when i was 13 ish), it was for fun lol. but after a year or two, and a bite or two, i realized how much safer f/t or p/k is, but he never took them, ever. granted i only tried maybe once every 6-8 weeks. he's taking them now though like a champ, he went through a 6month feeding strike towards the end of last year, then ate a few live rats, and the rest since then have been p/k and one f/t:D my boa has only eaten f/t with me, except for her first mouse, which was live, but she transitioned perfectly with no questions so to speak lol.

whenever mitch would get bit, i would use either neosporin, or tea tree oil, idk if th eoil did anything, but it was supposed too, luckily he has never had any kind of serious bite

I feed mostly frozen thawed, but have a couple snakes that will only eat live.
I always make sure to watch carefully with tongs in my hands, I have seen some rats trying to fight back and bite!

IMO if your snake will take F/T give it to them, but sometimes when they wont eat F/T I have no choice but to feed them live.

I feed live to some of my snakes, but it has to be done with caution. I feed live because I bought them eating live, and I am trying to convert them to f/t. I think the main concern with live feeding is an injury, which has happened to me on two occasions. Both times the rat had bit the snake after it had coiled. I had to physically remove the rats jaws away from the snake until the rat was dead. It was minor injuries that you have to look for to notice. I put polysporin on the wound and it heals great.


I think the main reason people feed live is convenience (it's just an opinion, it may not be the truth). I reason this because I find most people who feed live breed the feeders themselves, so there is less processing of the rat.

I strongly believe that it is reasonably safe to feed live rodents to snakes as long as you watch the snake until the rodent is dead. Until the prey is dead, it still poses a possible threat. The real problem comes from people who leave the prey unsupervised.

I have two Bps that refuse to eat f/t. I buy them live cause I like my snakes to eat. I would prefer them to eat f/t it is so much cheaper. I have tried to switch them back several times. They don't want no parts of f/t. My husband and I stay close by when we feed the snakes just in case. So far the rats haven't did any harm to them.

All of my balls eat live, and so does my gtp. With over 40 snakes, its easier for me to feed live. I do have some snakes that like to stalk the rat before striking, and its honestly becoming a PITA to have to stand there and wait for them to do their thing, as I keep a close eye on them as to ensure no bites. I have been seriously debating on trying to switch everyone over to f/t after breeding season.

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I feed live if I have it, because it's more natural and that is what they prefer. That's all the excitement they get besides being handled which they tolerate and feeding day is their favorite day of the week. In most cases where a snake was hurt by a rat it's because the owner didn't watch and probably just left the rat in with the snake and walked away. If you know what you are doing and supervise the whole process, you can even hold the feet back so they don't get scratched, then there is little to no risk.

I do what the snake tells me to do.

Most snakes when started will not take frozen for first meals. Never tried it as you want to stimulate their response to food, so you feed live. I let customer decide to switch or not.

I currently feed live due to the fact its easy. I also like offering as 'realistic' environment as possible for my animals. I give them the thrill of the hunt. That is unless of course the mouse/rat walks up and says hi. =)

I know my normal will take F/T or P/K at any time. Haven't tried on the new spider yet, and the '11's refused F/T the first time I offered.

I am setting up a kill chamber this week due to the 1.0 Spider taking a small bite the past two weeks. Nothing serious, but he is just not very accurate with his strikes. Both times, he had constricted so tight, that I was unable to get to the rat. Both are superficial bites with little to no blood being drawn.

So, I'm swapping to P/K this week because of him for everyone. Hopefully the '11's take them. They have been pretty good eaters so far on live even eating during 'blue'. Once I get everyone on P/K well. I will probably try and make the swap to F/T because of the price.

I much prefer f/t. However, my adult female BP, Ella, who has always been a powerhouse feeder on f/t since we got her 2 years ago, decided last year to be finicky about her f/t. She went 4 months of refusing f/t and only ate maybe 2 meals total in all that time. SO I finally broke down and offered her a live mouse because I was frankly starting to get worried (even though she really never did drop weight).

Ironically, it took her almost 30min to finally eat that first live mouse. But she ate her f/t perfectly the following week! So for awhile, I alternated giving her live and f/t that spring and she was sort of on again off again with her food but usually ate pretty well. Then in August, she starting refusing more than she was eating again. She ate a f/t mouse only 2 times in 2 months. The first of October I broke down again and got a couple live mice. BAM! She was a piggy again. So I've kept her on live for the last 2 months and she's eaten every meal so far.

I would LIKE to get her back on f/t. But I've been a chicken about trying it, lol. I would also like to get her on rats, but I'm even more nervous about trying that. I know I shouldn't be, but I'm a very motherly and nuturing person so I can't help but worry about her when she doesn't eat. I would rather feed her 2-3 live mice each week and have her eat than have her keep refusing f/t.

I feel that feeding her live is safe because I am extremely dilligent about watching out for her when she eats. I will NOT leave a live rodent in with her even for a just a few minutes. She's either going to eat it right away, or out it comes. I tail feed so each rodent is offered to her by me and I am right there to watch her strike and constrict in case there should be a problem. But for me, there is no enjoyment in watching her kill her prey. I have no moral or ethical problem with feeding live, but the reason I do it is simply because that's what works for her right now. All my other snakes happily eat f/t and I'm very thankful for that.... :D

I've never had her even come close to being bitten, but if Ella were to be injured by a rodent, I would evaluate how serious the bite was and immediately take her to the vet if it was that serious. A minor bite I would keep clean and use an anitbiotic ointment and keep a very careful eye on it. Rodent bites are nasty and not to be trifled with so I wouldn't hesitate to take her to the vet if I thought it was necessary. But I think most bites happen when the rodent is left unsupervised in the snake's enclosure which will not happen with Ella.

Sorry for the long post. That turned out to be more of a novel than I'd intended..... :oops:

I've just recently switched my snakes over to f/t. everyone has taken one at least once but they dont take them all the time, in which case, i feed them live and they strike. you can always (this might seem mean to some people) flick the mouse or rat in the head really hard with your index finger and knock them out if they start gnawing on your snakes' coils. i've had to do it a couple of times and it saved a couple snakes from a potential open wound. i would prefer to feed all f/t but sometimes its easier and faster to feed live. its pretty much a guaranteed strike with any of my snakes.

I didn't go through everyone's comments, and I guess i should have... Computer's running on borrowed time... Where's my charger?

Anyways, through the rescue I run, we get a ton of animals that just don't transition, even though we do our best to transition them ourselves.

Take for instance this Savvy we got in. He's great! Huffy puffy, but never really bite or tail-whipped. He lived in a car for three weeks, along with 20 other reptiles, because his owner was evicted for reptiles and she didn't want to surrender them until they all started to die.

He was only being fed live, I can understand that it's pretty hard to keep a rat frozen in a car...

But that's what he's been his entire life, and he has been difficult to switch over. We've had him for a month and tried and tried and tried, through different methods. Chicken stock, you name it, we tried it! We've only succeeded in getting him to take hard-boiled eggs, but that can't be his entire diet.

And in other instances, like the sand viper... Just won't take frozen thawed. In fact, she has this tendency as a hatchling, to bite into the pinkie (live), let it die, then eat it a solid 10 hours later.

We just get some finicky eaters. But hey, we do our best to switch over in our rescue, and some just don't take to it. And with numbers exceeding 50, usually near 70 animals, we just can't take our sweet time to get them all switched over.

But on a positive note, my personal female retic is eating frozen, as is my normal female het. granite ball.

Food for thought,

ZMD.

Sav monitors shouldnt be fed rodents period,

I feed live for my convience.

I always tell people that FT is safer and preferred. But with 30+ snakes, thawing 30 rats out and hoping everyone eats FT is a pain. Doing the zombie rat dance for a snake is no big deal, but doing it for 30+ snakes is a pain.

If you have a ton of leftovers, what next? Throw them all out and waste them? I have monitors, but I can't feed a ton of rodents to them. Feed the snakes in staggered feeding? Again, it's a pain, since then I've got to keep a staggered feeding schedule that will change EVERY feeding day if someone refuses and I give that rodent to someone else.

I've never ever 'enjoyed' watching a animal die. Not when I butchered my own animals for food, not when I've hunted and not when I feed my snakes. It doesn't gross me out or make me feel 'immoral' in any way. It's just part of life. I watch the snakes to make sure the rats don't harm them. If a rat isn't struck just right, I can interfere if it attempts to bite. Is that foolproof? Of course not. There's a possibility the snake could get bitten.

But then, pythons are pretty tought, and even if a rat does get struck poorly and take a few extra seconds to die, they can't automatically bite your python's head off. It's rare to get a injury from a feeding, as opposed to a unsupervised rodent in a snake's bin for days.

FT is always the safe bet. But between snakes that refuse to eat FT, the convienance of live esp for those of us breeding our own, and the mydrid number of other reasons, there's always probably going to be some live feeders.

I feed live because I have picky eaters and it's easier for me to get live and keep them if they don't eat. I can't afford to toss out rats every time my normal male decides he's not hungry

well, i do get the "what if they don't eat" thing. We have 11 snakes, and when one won't eat, sometimes someone else will...and if not (or it's the wrong size) then we refreeze. If it's the right size that someone else may eat it...sometimes with the pythons or the dumeril's boas i'll leave it out over night, and most of the time they eat it...if not, it's nice and stinky for my "garbage disposal" snakes to eat it *lol*

I have only seen a snake's live feeding once...when i was at the pound, about to adopt the two balls they had. They had just put mice in to feed them (yup, a mouse for a 4 foot long ball python..they also had no water at all)...anyway...the first ball struck, and suffocated the mouse, and swallowed it down. The second was blind from eye cap build up, kept striking and missing, and when it did hit the mouse it got the butt...so when it wrapped around the mouse, the mouse bit and tore a scale off while i was watching. That snake was also too weak to kill the mouse (I named her Ribs, and at the time she weighed only a little more than a pound)...anyway, both those snakes are doing fine now...and i'm helping them recover. But that was the only life feed i've seen. It' looked really ineffective and it looks like just the slightest off bite and scales and blood fly.

But, they are rescues and both were dehydrated and undernourished.

Aha and in response to "it's more natural for them" and "they like the excitement" LOL
Okay so as an example, I have 4 snakes in-particular who have never had live food. Our girl ball python gets PLENTY excited for her dead rat ...LOL she is hilarious. She's so silly she wouldn't know what to do with something alive. A lot of the ones i have are preeeetty domesticated it seems. At least a couple of them actually strike. Our hognose, and our rescued corn snake just....start eating. It's actually pretty funny too.

I think i'm just pretty protective of my snakes. I'd be so worried the whole time they were striking and eating live food. I don't mind anything else eating live, since they can't get hurt. Oh and don't get me wrong...i'm an oddball girl. I've gone hunting with my dad, and even have a nice deer mount or two or three on his wall that he's proud of (the son he never had lol) but i would be so upset if my little snakey babies got bit or hurt.

There's a reptile show in January in Pamona, and i know i shouldn't go....but i do need supplies! And yeah maybe i'll be looking at snakes....maybe i'll find one....but i have to admit, that if they were eating live all the time it might be a turn off for me. It might depend on the snake, too though.

I suppose i might learn to feel different when i have like 30 snakes. Right now 11 is manageable for f/t lol

I feed all my snakes live. Back when I had a couple snakes it might have been useful to feed F/T, but now it'd just be a major waste of money. I have some snakes that will turn their noses up at food for no apparent reason, and every time a snake does that, it means the food went to waste with F/T because I think re-heating F/T is kind of disgusting and unsafe. With live, I can put the rat back in a cage/habitat with food and water and it won't be "spoiled" - it'll be healthy and ready for next week.

I fed my snakes P/K for a while and feeding response went down. Live gives me the best feeding response among the babies and adults alike. Everyone gets watched until they kill their prey. When it comes to my spider male, who cannot do a head shot for the life of him, I will dangle it for him so he can get a head shot easier.

IMO and simple answer, they eat live in the wild so why not feed them live in captivity.

Of course, in the wild they aren't in a newspaper lined tub. In the wild the rat has a chance to escape, and so does the snake if it doesn't want to eat. I still don't think feeding live is any more 'natural' unless the snake was given a total hunting experience.... Dangling/tossing in a rat in a box isn't the same, though I can see it's pros and cons.

Our male IS occasionally fed live, when he's being picky. Thankfully he's never been hurt. Came close a few times though!

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Sav monitors shouldnt be fed rodents period,

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He is fed a well balanced diet. Rodents aren't his only source of food. Lizards are in there too, beef, eggs. That's about it so far. We're experimenting with him, but he just got over scale rot, so you can see where we're coming from.

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

Of course, in the wild they aren't in a newspaper lined tub. In the wild the rat has a chance to escape, and so does the snake if it doesn't want to eat. I still don't think feeding live is any more 'natural' unless the snake was given a total hunting experience.... Dangling/tossing in a rat in a box isn't the same, though I can see it's pros and cons.

Our male IS occasionally fed live, when he's being picky. Thankfully he's never been hurt. Came close a few times though!

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I don't understand what you mean by hunting experience:confused:

Well, I guess what I mean is it's a different experience than it would be in the wild. Yes the ball is an opportunist who will wait for prey to come to it.. But it's hard to compare a confined experience in a tub with the real outdoors. I don't really mean like true hunting, that was a poor choice of words. I don't have problems with feeding live, I just wouldn't call it natural--for either the predator or the prey really. I think of live feeding being fed more so out of convenience as well as to know what the rat was fed.

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

Well, I guess what I mean is it's a different experience than it would be in the wild. Yes the ball is an opportunist who will wait for prey to come to it.. But it's hard to compare a confined experience in a tub with the real outdoors. I don't really mean like true hunting, that was a poor choice of words. I don't have problems with feeding live, I just wouldn't call it natural--for either the predator or the prey really. I think of live feeding being fed more so out of convenience as well as to know what the rat was fed.

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Oh, I find it to be very natural. I know what my rats eat. I mean if you think killing a rat yourself or thawing a rat is natural that's fine lol. To each there own.

Personaly it`s alot easier for me to feed live because for me to buy f/t i have to drive an hour.Live are only about 10 min away.I just started and haven`t had any problems so far.
The way i see it they eat live in the wild and have no problems so why not feed live? It`s all personal preference.

If you watch and make sure nothing happens nothing will happen!!

agreed purplemuffin (btw love the frog).

I'm glad to hear that it seems everyone watches their snake though, to make sure things are okay. The facts are these snakes are NOT wild, and not IN the wild....they can't get away if they feel like not eating...and the rats or rabbits (the one BP i have has a huge healed rip down his whole belly from a rabbit kick) can chew them, hurt them, attack, etc. (I have been attacked by a rat, and a rabbit *lol* they are vicious if they want to be. Rat was actually trying to attack a grasshopper...and the rabbit was just a jerk who hate people *lol*)

I don't know, now we're getting into opinion, rather than fact.....see, it's like saying well a dog is "supposed" to be wild, so it should be able to catch prey on it's own, etc. A LOT of ball pythons are bred in the pet trade, and a lot of them are very domesticated. For a lot of them, they are just instinctively inferior to their wild brotheren. I'm sure there are quite a few that, obviously, do well, too.

I just can't really justify the risk of bits, scratches, eye injuries, etc. My snakes get pretty excited chasing and eating dead water warmed rats when wiggled and drug across a towel. They have learned when it's time to eat, and where, and they get very excited. It's realllllly cute. I like the bonding, and the feeding, and all of it. I prefer f/t.

Now, though, if i had a snake that no matter what refused food...i would always try to transition it to f/t....but i would do what i had to, to get it to eat. More than likely though? I would have no problem bumping the rat in the head/dazing the rat so it was only barely alive.

Does anyone do that? Or do you just put the rat/mouse in the cage with the snake? Do you put the snake in a feeding box?

I don't think pk or ft is natural either! Nothing is natural about a snake in a cage, cleaning, handling, substrate, and feeding included. Does that make it wrong? No! It's just not nature. We don't find wild rack systems in the wild, LOL! If we did, I'd be out herping more often and grabbing some racks! :D I wasn't arguing against live, just the idea that it's exactly like the wild! :P Captive care is a unique thing, unnatural, but in a way meant to still be healthy. And we do a darn good job, considering how much longer our critters our living in our care :) Sorry if my post was confusing! No negative intent, I promise! <3

I feed in the cage with our male, we have stunned the rodent before, but of course that time was the one time maru did NOT strike perfectly(99% of the time he gets them right on the neck and perfectly gets the legs) and ended up getting very close to a bite when the rat figured out what was going on. Was very stressful! But that was our fail-experience. We seemed to struggle finding that delicate balance of outright murdering the rat or just ticking it off! He usually will grab the rat the second it hits the floor if it's live, but if for any reason we are concerned (he is in blue/is acting finicky/specially active or twitchy rat) we will just try to keep the two separate--like put Maru on top of his hide, give him a bit of an advantage so the rat can't reach. He will take it down like a charm.

And thanks! I'm trying to do pixels of all my pets! :D maru's next!

We breed our own so it's just quicker and easier to feed live or P/K. Most of ours take them P/K now, which makes for a much quicker feeding day since they don't have to be monitored.

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A LOT of ball pythons are bred in the pet trade, and a lot of them are very domesticated.

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I figure this is because of the breeding intervention... ball pythons in the wild have a lot of eggs in a clutch because most of them won't survive. The ones that do are the most "genetically superior" but because we have a vested interest in the animals, we ensure that (to the best of our ability) all of the animals survive. Even those who wouldn't have survived in the wild due to appetite, etc. And those animals breed and pass on their genetics.

I have a rescue female and a male I've raised from a baby, and both will only take live. And even then my male is finicky about that. Picky little mouser. :/ Haven't tried feeding my new boa yet, but I'm hoping she will take PK/FT. If not, it's really no hassle to get an extra live feeder every week. -shrug-

I watch them the whole time the food is in there with them. If it's lively and they miss the head, or it fights back, I thump it roughly on the head to knock it out, hold it's back legs, etc. Whatever is necessary to keep them from hurting my babies. I'd take a bite before I'd let them bite my snakes. :P

My snakes will not have anything to do with F/T. I've tried many times and just gave up. If they would it eat, I would prefer it because of it being cheaper in bulk. I have 7 BP of different ages and none of them will have anything to do with F/T at all.

That's why I personally feed live.

Leave work.

Drive a block away.

Pick up rodents.

Go home.

Drop in tubs.

Full bellies.

That's how easy it is for me to feed live. I share my house with my family, so keeping frozen rats in the freezer is a no-no. And placing them somewhere to thaw is also a no-no.

For a Long time up until I got over 10 snakes I did pk/ft. I Have total over 60 balls now and live seems to be the preference for most of my snakes and it's a convienence thing for me. I breed my rodents and everyone eats when the prey is live. I watch the rats and I've never had a serious issue. If someone does get bitten it's never a serious bite bc I prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. A weanling can't do as much damage as a jumbo. Period. When and if it should happen the bite is cleaned with betadyne and watched. Accidents can happen but it's so infrequent that as I look up the last time it did... it was around 2 1/2 years ago. It gives me and the snakes an easy routine. With alot of snakes to feed in a day and many other critters to care for, yes I go for conveience. Do I think it's necessarily easier, or safer, etc to do one or the other?? NO. each way of feeding has its own risks. At least with live I don't have to worry about if the middle is totally thawed and have to poke around in 60-70 dead rats. Eww
So that's my reasoning.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I have a freezer stocked with various sizes of f/t rats and hopper mice. All of my babies are started on live, then switched over to f/t if they are going on the market. This is purely for customer convenience, not mine. If the customer wants something different, I'll make the switch before shipping.

If they are hold backs, they stay on live - mostly ASFs but occasionally rats when my ASF inventory is low. Live is a lot more convenient for me and if the snake does not eat, the rat can be fed again the next week.

My freezer is in the man cave, so the family does not open it or see it. I do occasionally ask my daughter's friends if they want a mousecicle for dessert or a snack! :D

I feed only live and have no inclination to feed f/t, I've converted numerous f/t feeders to live :D

honestly it is hard for me to have to hear & watch a rat pup die in my snake's grip every 10 days but my girl will not touch anything she didnt kill herself & i know this cuz multiple times i've ended up with a rat dying suddenly for unknown reasons prior to a feeding & i've offered them to my snake anyways & every single time she's refused it, even when i tried to make the rats appear "live", she's not one to be easily fooled.
now to avoid that uneccessary waste i only buy the rats on feeding days.

I too feed live out of convenience. Most of my snakes are still young and not yet full grown. It's more difficult to order f/t because all of my snakes eat different sized food and I feel like a lot of those f/t rodents would go to waste.

Also, I recently started breeding my own rats. It's just easier to throw a rat into a tub than thaw out and do the zombie rat dance.

And I also feed live rats to my ferrets. It is 120% more healthy for them than eating commercial food (even the high quality brands). Feeding live provides enrichment and exercise for my ferrets when they hunt and take down rats.

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Originally Posted by mommanessy247

honestly it is hard for me to have to hear & watch a rat pup die in my snake's grip every 10 days but my girl will not touch anything she didnt kill herself & i know this cuz multiple times i've ended up with a rat dying suddenly for unknown reasons prior to a feeding & i've offered them to my snake anyways & every single time she's refused it, even when i tried to make the rats appear "live", she's not one to be easily fooled.
now to avoid that uneccessary waste i only buy the rats on feeding days.

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I apologize for sidetracking, but is this a BP that you're only feeding a rat pup to every 10 days?

I am just learning here but from my stand as long as you use tongs to suspend the mouse/rat/gerbil over the enclosure or where ever you plan to feed your BP... live is best, natural and safe... I am sure in the wild they get attacked back a LOT more.. of course if I notice that my BPs are getting their ass' whooped by their intended food on the regular I would have to consider that I am either feeding them the wrong size or need to switch to F/T.
ATM the owner who is giving me my first pair of BPs tomorrow after noon is feeding F/T but says they really don't care for it and will go sometimes too long with out eating but scarf down live.. [besides the idea of dead rats in the freezer un-nerves my daughter in law...lol]
But I could never continue to feed my BP's live if it seem to harm them in any way. Any newbie advice is welcome.. we do have 3 small children in the house but they will not be handleing them until the snakes are 'settled' as the girl we are getting them from has not really 'handled' them much. [ex BF abandoned them with her but she is afraid of them.. feedings freak her out bad too she said, poor thing.]

:snake:

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Originally Posted by alohasiempre

I am just learning here but from my stand as long as you use tongs to suspend the mouse/rat/gerbil over the enclosure or where ever you plan to feed your BP... live is best, natural and safe... I am sure in the wild they get attacked back a LOT more.. of course if I notice that my BPs are getting their ass' whooped by their intended food on the regular I would have to consider that I am either feeding them the wrong size or need to switch to F/T.
ATM the owner who is giving me my first pair of BPs tomorrow after noon is feeding F/T but says they really don't care for it and will go sometimes too long with out eating but scarf down live.. [besides the idea of dead rats in the freezer un-nerves my daughter in law...lol]
But I could never continue to feed my BP's live if it seem to harm them in any way. Any newbie advice is welcome.. we do have 3 small children in the house but they will not be handleing them until the snakes are 'settled' as the girl we are getting them from has not really 'handled' them much. [ex BF abandoned them with her but she is afraid of them.. feedings freak her out bad too she said, poor thing.]

:snake:

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If you plan on feeding live, I suggest finding a source where the rats are fairly tame. I just recently started breeding my own rats to be social and friendly. I personally find that the more gentle rats don't attack snakes...A rat from an unsocialized colony w/ minimum human contact seemed to be more aggressive in my experience. I'm sure others have had similar and different experiences as I, but this is just my 2 cents.

I breed them so it's a lot easier to grab one out, bring it 5 feet to the snake cage and drop it in, if he's not interested, take it back out and put it in the cage. Otherwise I'd have to co2 them, freeze them, take them out and thaw hoping he wants to eat that day, heat it up and play with it, he's not interested in f/t anyways. I also think the fresher the better.

We raise our own rodents, and feed our snakes what is available at the time.

There are times of feast, when our rattery is producing more then enough rodents that each snake get a live meal or two every 5-7 days, and we still have a large number of rodents that get put down and stored frozen.

Then there are times of famine, when our rodent production gets low.
Usually during hatchling season, when we are taking the litters of pinks, and putting the females right back into breeding rotation.
Every so often, we feed off our current breeders, and grow out the next generation of breeder rodents.
During those lulls we feed off the frozen rodents that were stored during the season of plenty.

I can honestly say that every one of our snakes will take live, p/k, or f/t without showing a preference at all.

I have NEVER fed any of them a mouse, but converted the first 50 animals in our collection over from f/t ASF's, to live regular rats, when they were in the 500g range.
With the exception of one, (a .1 Pastel 66%het TSK Axanthic,) they had no problem making the switch, and even went back and forth while we phased out the ASF's and got our reg. rats going.

That one female was stubborn, but I was even more stubborn.
She was a sporatic eaterfor a while but reached the 1200g range last Winter, at three years old.
I bred her to our Spider het TSK Axanthic, and witnessed two good locks.
She did not go on to give us a clutch, but turned into a very aggressive live rat eater, and has not missed a meal since mid-December 2010 (even in shed.)
She is 2400g, and is locked with our male Pastel het TSK Axanthic right now.

It always baffles me when people talk about how BP's are picky eaters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Missy King

If you have a live food eating snake that refuses dead food....do you occasionally still try to transition to F/T?

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Yes.

However, I still feed live if they aren't taking dead.

Yeah, most BPs aren't picky when it comes to live, though there are exceptions.

Though with other snakes..Man, I'll feed f/t like it's no tomorrow with no troubles. I have no excuse to feed live with Nagini, she'd take a warmed up sock if I offered it, LOL! :P

It seems with bps more than any other snake--if you plan to feed f/t..expect difficulties. You might not have troubles, but you have a better chance of struggling to get them to eat..than say trying to feed a boa f/t.

First, I don't think that refreezing a rodent is a good idea, nor is leaving it out for a day and then feeding it. Dead rats are meat. If you wouldn't leave a piece of chicken out to thaw, refreeze it and consider it healthy, I wouldn't do the same with a whole rat. Especially since the rodents are WHOLE, with guts and fun stuff inside that spoils extremely quickly. IMHO, it's feeding spoiled food.

Second, ball pythons are not domesticated. Domestication takes a lot longer than several generations. Ball pythons raised from hatching in captivity obviously would act differently than a wild caught ball python. However, if you took a egg from a wild caught ball python, hatched it in captivity, you would get the same behaviors. That's learned behaviors, not domestication. Just a little peeve of mine about using terms in error.

It is all opinion on whether feeding live is 'better and more natural' or 'irresponsible and cruel'. The debate over live vs FT has been done over and over, and will continue to be debated over and over. Some will scream that it's even "immoral" to feed live, no matter what. Some feel it's cruel to not feed live, so that the snake experiances the more natural behavior of hunting and killing it's prey. Both are opinions and as opinions, they are not wrong or right.

I've never had a problem with feeding live. Period. If your scare for ur animals safety, I hope you take all the right precautions. Size of prey at times can be people's 1st mistake on why your snake can be ate by it's prey, or hurt. The fact of talking about the wild and saying your snake can get away(or rat) if it wants is ridiculous. Why? Because you shouldn't be leaving your rat in with your ball unless your ball is hungry or etc. I mean that's why your ball is in captivity. Captivity= more responsibility for you. Do your part, work smarter not harder. Consider the scales on your ball python as armor. They know what there doing. Just tired of the danger of feeding live statements.

I could give you a BS answer and think of some reason that I think live is better for my boy, or steal an answer from a more educated and experienced snake owner... BUT...
For me the honestly for real with facts answer is that I enjoy watching Jackson hunt and kill. Sorry if that offends...

When his prey gets bigger I will give him p/k, and he does eat it (I've given him f/t before, he takes it with no hesitation). Occasionally the pet store I go to is out of the rat size I give him so I get an adult mouse- and I kill it before I offer it to him. This is because we did have a bad experience with one giving him a good sized gash in the neck.

because my male bp just will not switch over even after refusing f/t rats, asf, and gerbils for 6 months and i wasn't comfortable going any longer due to lost weight. not much lost weight but the instant a live rat was dropped in he took it.

My Ukki was an avid live-eater when I got him, refusing the mice I bought and killed FOR him, but if the mouse ran, he was all in to eat. I didn't have a local supplier for Frozen/Thawed mice where I lived (even travelled 20 minutes to get the live mice for him).

He had always been a live-eater-- the person I bought him from had him eating several live rat pups per week since she kept mostly redtails and he was the only ball python she had (and ultimately why she sold him.)

That said, the few times he did get bit, I was told by my vet to just put neosporin on him to promote healing (and he healed up very well, and I'm VERY thankful for that). It made me a nervous wreck to feed him and I eventually got to the point where I'd wait for him to strike the mouse, then I'd stick a ruler in for the mouse to bite JUST to be sure it didn't bite him. The happiest day for me was the day he, for whatever reason, switched himself over to Frozen/Thawed rats after I moved to Madison.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

First, I don't think that refreezing a rodent is a good idea, nor is leaving it out for a day and then feeding it. Dead rats are meat. If you wouldn't leave a piece of chicken out to thaw, refreeze it and consider it healthy, I wouldn't do the same with a whole rat. Especially since the rodents are WHOLE, with guts and fun stuff inside that spoils extremely quickly. IMHO, it's feeding spoiled food.

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There is no problem refreezing. The cold needed to freeze the meat, kills bacteria. Not to mention, ball pythons will eat found food "in the wild" and will, and do, eat "found" food in captivity. My dumeril's boas will ONLY eat food i leave out for them. Feel free to find facts to disprove that a ball will eat already dead, and/or slightly "gone bad" food. Also feel free to find out if freezing things will kill most bacteria.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Second, ball pythons are not domesticated. Domestication takes a lot longer than several generations.

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Please be specific....how many generations is "several"? I would think a breeder like say, Corey Woods, or Raph Davis have a considerable amount of generations under their belt. Quite a bit more than "several".
Just a glance from wikipedia "Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'[1]. Therefore, a defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans."

It would not take more than -my- definition of "Several" ...for generations of ball pythons to become more quickly adapted to captivity, humans, and though would still have an instinct to kill for food...would be dimmed into thinking f/t is perfectly fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Ball pythons raised from hatching in captivity obviously would act differently than a wild caught ball python. However, if you took a egg from a wild caught ball python, hatched it in captivity, you would get the same behaviors. That's learned behaviors, not domestication. Just a little peeve of mine about using terms in error.

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A learned behavior is exactly that...something learned. Any hatchling would only have instinct. I think you've used the term in error...did you pet peeve yourself? lol
The two hatchlings may have the same basic instincts, however a domesticated/captive bred animal would adapt far quicker to becoming more docile. The captive bred animal accepting any new Learned Behavior of being domesticated, quicker than the wild caught animals that still have a high instinct....because it hasn't been bred out of them over "several" generations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

It is all opinion on whether feeding live is 'better and more natural' or 'irresponsible and cruel'. The debate over live vs FT has been done over and over, and will continue to be debated over and over. Some will scream that it's even "immoral" to feed live, no matter what. Some feel it's cruel to not feed live, so that the snake experiances the more natural behavior of hunting and killing it's prey. Both are opinions and as opinions, they are not wrong or right.

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It shouldn't be opinion at all, however it's easier for people to justify their feeding, or their not feeding, as so. There are facts, which is what I asked for, though I have not seen many in response. So, you are correct in say both are opinions, really I just wish people would say more than their opinion.

It should be looked at by a case by case basis, such as it would factually be more appropriate to feed a wild caught, or a higher instinct snake live food...compared to a more domesticated animal that has say....been, handled, picked, chosen, bred and sold to be docile.

There is a NOVA study done on dogs wild foxes that shows that a wild pack, which had been bred, and had certain foxes with certain traits selected for less more than three generations ended with an end group of happy, licking, lovable foxes...and another group of violent, angry, afraid, wild and snarling pups.

SO really, despite how I am actually not someone who feeds my snakes live, and will have no problem trying to transition a live eater to f/t...i in no way think it's a needed "excitement" or "better" for the snake, or "cruel" to the snake to not let it eat live. Unless I actually walk outside and pick up a random snake, the snakes I have are in the pet trade, and have been bred in the pet trade. They are a portion domesticated, you must concede, and will adapt easier and fuller to the conditions i'd prefer for their safety.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of people don't have a yay or nay opinion, as much as it's easier for them to feed their snakes live. That is a fact i was looking for....not an opinion.

It also seems like a lot of people are really responsible, and try to keep their snakes safe. I really like that. There is no reason to have the snake hurt, at all. We are the captors, protectors, and caregivers for our pets. and they ARE pets... they ARE captive...it's up to us to keep them in safe situations.
I know I appreciate reading that people don't leave their pets alone with other animals that could harm them. I've seen too many hurt animals from irresponsible people!