Really weird baby...

Ok so I've had fail to thrive babies and all but never have I seen a baby that looked like this one.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1822.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1826.jpg

whole litter of 10
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1821.jpg

with a sybling
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1829.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1830.jpg

The eye buldges are what is really weird. Anyways, I'm debating weather or not to feed it off or wait a bit. It's very fiesty and pushes its syblings around no prob. Thoughts?

Please excuse the dog hair on the carpet :oops:

There's something seriously wrong with it. You should go ahead and put it down so it's not suffering any longer. :(

Oh. Wow. I would say it'd definitely be more humane to put it down now so it doesn't suffer. That's kind of messed up. Although, I must admit I am sort of curious as to whether it will open its eyes, and what they look like. It's not worth making the poor little guy suffer just to satisfy curiosity though.

Do you think the eyes are big or if there's just fluid around them? Does it seem to be in pain?

almost looks like the eyes are normal size, but the skull is too small. looks like a runt, but if you keep it i sure wouldn't breed it!!! good luck though

No deff would never breed something like this. Only reason I'm waiting to feed it off is because it doesnt seem to be uncomfortable. It's eating and pushing around its siblings perfectly normally, acting normal... just looks really really weird. Seems strong though. When I picked it up I thought it would be weak and listless. Quite the opposite.

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

No deff would never breed something like this. Only reason I'm waiting to feed it off is because it doesnt seem to be uncomfortable. It's eating and pushing around its siblings perfectly normally, acting normal... just looks really really weird. Seems strong though. When I picked it up I thought it would be weak and listless. Quite the opposite.

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But it is clearly malnourished, deformed, and un-healthy. . . Please don't keep it alive just to satisfy your curiosity. :(

Just wanted to update.. I didnt see a reason to feed it off since it is so enerjetic and nursing fine. I did feel that the other 9 siblings might be edging it out though so I fostered it to another female who has a smaller litter of about a week old. She did accept it and it is doing well and has grown a bit. No evidence of suffering whatsoever. Believe me, I would have fed it if I had seen any.

Post some pics of the little guy when he is a lil older....if you dont feed him off! :D

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

Just wanted to update.. I didnt see a reason to feed it off since it is so enerjetic and nursing fine. I did feel that the other 9 siblings might be edging it out though so I fostered it to another female who has a smaller litter of about a week old. She did accept it and it is doing well and has grown a bit. No evidence of suffering whatsoever. Believe me, I would have fed it if I had seen any.

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There -is- evidence of suffering. . . Just from the photos. You can see it is extremely malnourished and under developed, and has some kind of severe eye deformity, which you have no comprehension of, that could be causing it extreme pain, or be evidence of other internal deformities which are resulting in it's extreme failure to thrive. That ASF is very very sick.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

There -is- evidence of suffering. . . Just from the photos. You can see it is extremely malnourished and under developed, and has some kind of severe eye deformity, which you have no comprehension of, that could be causing it extreme pain, or be evidence of other internal deformities which are resulting in it's extreme failure to thrive. That ASF is very very sick.

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So in your opinion a runt puppy or say a puppy born with a leg deformity is automatically suffering and should be culled? I appreciate your concern but like I said, the little one is doing much better, has grown, and its eyes look normal now, they are not deformed. There is NO evidence of suffering. It is doing well with it's new litter. I will post some pictures for those interesed soon.

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

So in your opinion a runt puppy or say a puppy born with a leg deformity is automatically suffering and should be culled? I appreciate your concern but like I said, the little one is doing much better, has grown, and its eyes look normal now, they are not deformed. There is NO evidence of suffering. It is doing well with it's new litter. I will post some pictures for those interesed soon.

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I have to agree. As long as it is thriving, and not sitting in a corner shaking, I say keep it up. To be honest - it's kinda cute...

I'm trying not to get attached to it, it is after all supposed to be a feeder. But yes, it is doing very well right now. If I thought it wasnt, I would have fed it off.

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

So in your opinion a runt puppy or say a puppy born with a leg deformity is automatically suffering and should be culled? I appreciate your concern but like I said, the little one is doing much better, has grown, and its eyes look normal now, they are not deformed. There is NO evidence of suffering. It is doing well with it's new litter. I will post some pictures for those interesed soon.

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You are putting words in my mouth, I said nothing about a leg deformity, or a puppy at all.

A runt rodent is by definition, suffering. A runt in the rodent world to this calliber is sometimes called a 'peanut'. It is an extreme version of runting. The animal in question is far far FAR behind it's syblings in growth, because something is very very wrong with it. It is malnourished, under developed, and on top of all the normal runt symptoms, it has a severe eye deformity.
You can deny it all you want, but a starving, under developed, DEFORMED, baby animal isa suffering animal. :(

Rodents naturally do not show illness. It is safe to assume that by the time you see the pain on a rodent clearly, it is going to die in the next 24 to 48 hours.

If a runt rodent is by definition suffering, then why are we breeding dwarf rats? When they popped up in the litters, they appear to be runts. So why have we kept them and held them back to breed? Like I said previously, this baby is not suffering. It's eyes are normal, activity is normal, and nursing is normal. I don't know where you got the obsurd idea that it is starving. I stated in my first post that is behaving and nursing normally and again, like I said, it is not deformed. I know plenty well about rodent health and veterinary services. I went to veterinary technician school and have worked in several vet clinics. In addition to that, I have kept all sorts of rodent species from the time I was a child. Believe it or not, when you are not directly in the situation, you may not always be right. :gj:

You can say it's not suffering as many times as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it's underdeveloped and malnourished.

Dwarf rats are not runts, and do not present as such. They are not runts bred to runts, they are rats with a dwarfism gene that makes them small. Not malnourished, not under developed.

You can see that it's starving by looking at it. It's the 'runt' because it is not getting enough nutrition to properly nourish it's body and grow. That's what being a 'runt' in this case means.

Yes. I know the genetics of rats. If you would pay attention to what I have been saying at all you would know that it is growing and catching up quickly.

Can we get a new picture of it to see how it's doing? I think that going by the older picture isn't really helping. I just want the ASF not to be suffering, whether it be by naturally improving or culling. I think a new picture would help determine that.

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Originally Posted by carlisleishere

Can we get a new picture of it to see how it's doing? I think that going by the older picture isn't really helping. I just want the ASF not to be suffering, whether it be by naturally improving or culling. I think a new picture would help determine that.

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123.
I would love to see how the baby is thriving now :)

I'd really like to see new photos of this baby

Four days ago:

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1822.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1829.jpg

Just now:

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1832.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCN1834.jpg

Thanks for the new pics. :) I'm not an expert on ASFs, but he does appear to be doing better.

No prob. And he/she has only been with its new litter for 3 days

^ I'd love to see "progress" pics of him if he continues to improve and thrive.

I'd say after his rough start that if he turns out to grow big and healthy he should definately be qualified to become a pet over a feeder - I'd take him in a heartbeat!

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

^ I'd love to see "progress" pics of him if he continues to improve and thrive.

I'd say after his rough start that if he turns out to grow big and healthy he should definately be qualified to become a pet over a feeder - I'd take him in a heartbeat!

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Me too! *Squeals* It is SO adorable! :)

I will take pics in another week - 10 days to show progress. If he does continue to improve, I cant say I will personally keep him/her as a pet, but if you'd like him for yourself I would let you have him :)

Well his eyes look better, but he's by no means thriving. He's still extremely under developed and malnourished, that part looks no better.
I wouldn't recommend keeping him as a pet, because you don't know what his lifespan will be like, if he makes it past weaning. It would be a shame to get attached to something that could die before you get a chance to know it.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

I wouldn't recommend keeping him as a pet, because you don't know what his lifespan will be like, if he makes it past weaning. It would be a shame to get attached to something that could die before you get a chance to know it.

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I agree it would be heartbreaking to get attatched to something and have it pass without warning one day, I just ment that if he pulls through to be a healthy little guy I think he deserves to be a pet after his ordeals: even if it may be short lived. He looks like a trooper so far!

Really Rhasputin? The rest of it's body looks NO better to you at all after three days?

For those concerned about him/her becoming a pet, I'm not sure really. I don't really need pet ASF. If someone wants him/her thats cool though.

IMO, he looks like a "normal" preemie would, but in time will catch up to the rest of the siblings, just like with human preemies.

It doesn't necessarily mean that there are any deformities internally going on, he may have had a FTT issue going on in the beginning, but looks to be thriving now that it is in a smaller litter.

Too cute, good idea for not putting it down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by llovelace

IMO, he looks like a "normal" preemie would, but in time will catch up to the rest of the siblings, just like with human preemies.

It doesn't necessarily mean that there are any deformities internally going on, he may have had a FTT issue going on in the beginning, but looks to be thriving now that it is in a smaller litter.

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Good point comparing him/her with a preemie. Handn't seen it like that before. What is FTT? How can I watch for it in future litters from this trio? Thanks again. It is doing very well with its new litter so currently I see no reason to cull.

FTT is failure to thrive.

Ah thanks! :)

rhasputin was right on this one...

I don't care if the baby rat ends up being just fine in the end... because it ultimately isn't just fine. It probably still has some genetic problems that it could possibly pass on if you make a simple mistake sometime during its life, and it ends up breeding.

It is the responsability of any reputable rodent breeder to cull anything made that should not be. Rodents aren't snakes. They breed so very easy that the right answer is only to cull what should not be.

What if it ends up being perfectly healthy--and is fixed or given away as a pet with only same sex roommates? Just curious. It's interesting to know where 'the line' is in regards to culling.

I was born 9 weeks premature and only weighted 4 lbs. I'm really glad my parents didn't have the mentality of some of you guys. Sure things weren't easy at first. I was hospitalized multiple times but in the end I turned out fine... Top of my class even.

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

What if it ends up being perfectly healthy--and is fixed or given away as a pet with only same sex roommates? Just curious. It's interesting to know where 'the line' is in regards to culling.

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It can't end up perfectly healthy. There is a reason it was born different. There is something genetically wrong with it.

With rodent breeding comes great responsiblility. They breed way to easy to not fix a big problem before it starts.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I was born 9 weeks premature and only weighted 4 lbs. I'm really glad my parents didn't have the mentality of some of you guys. Sure things weren't easy at first. I was hospitalized multiple times but in the end I turned out fine... Top of my class even.

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Ever heard the term oranges to apples?

This baby was not born premature. It has genetic defects.

BTW if you want to start comparing rats to humans, I would suggest you not breed them just to feed a snake.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Ever heard the term oranges to apples?

This baby was not born premature. It has genetic defects.

BTW if you want to start comparing rats to humans, I would suggest you not breed them just to feed a snake.

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The point I am trying to get across is that it might not be destined for failure.

It IS possible that the only thing wrong with this ASF was that it was born a bit small, and failed to compete for milk effectively with its numerous siblings. It may have appeared malnourished simply because it was--if it's begun to recover, develop and grow after being placed with a smaller litter, it may be because now it is getting sufficient milk. (Just because it's nursing doesn't mean it's getting sufficient milk--if mom has none left, then baby gets none).

The animal may make a 100% full recovery, and its issues may have been due to nothing other than the bad luck of being born a bit weak in a litter that was too large.

Malnutrition can cause many physical issues--the eye issue and other signs may have been due to absolutely nothing other than that, particularly since they're now going away. There may be no genetic abnormalities at all.

I'm personally not all that sentimental, and would feed it off once it's reached sufficient size. The sturdiest, strongest, fastest growing, and most docile animals should be used for breeders, after all.

I would have no problem feeding it off... I just wouldn't feed it off because of its condition.

I'd love to see updated photos of said rat?

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I would have no problem feeding it off... I just wouldn't feed it off because of its condition.

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lol...

(i'm a little late but...) Why do people who ask for OPINIONS always think there own opinions outweigh the people that have been asked? You asked and Rhasputin answered, you didn't agree so you argued. Why? To avoid this why not just not ask about the baby? From the original picture I agreed put it down. I've had to do this with rabbits multiple times, it's heartbreaking yes, but that's beyond the point. If you don't like opinions don't ask for advice.

And yes, please post another picture, I'd love to see how this little guy thrived.

hey all sorry I havent updated you. Got super busy with Christmas and the New Year. Anyways, the little guy grew for a short period of time but then stopped. His new litter outgrew him and he was then still the same size as his original mothers new litter. I feel I tried to give him the chance to survive that he deserved but in the end it just wasnt meant to be. Kind of sad, but I have to remember that he was originally born to be a feeder, not a pet. C'est la vie.

Next time, please cull the animal humanely before it starves to death.

I don't know why you assume it starved as the entire time it was alive it ate very well. It didnt thrive enough to make me comfortable keeping it so it was fed off a week ago.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

Next time, please cull the animal humanely before it starves to death.

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It was. Miami gave it a shot. It did well - for a time - and when it no longer continued to do so, it was used for its purpose. I don't see what the problem is here.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I was born 9 weeks premature and only weighted 4 lbs. I'm really glad my parents didn't have the mentality of some of you guys. Sure things weren't easy at first. I was hospitalized multiple times but in the end I turned out fine... Top of my class even.

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Are being serious. Rodents eat their young. Are you seriously trying to compare your premature birth to that of an ASF. I hate to break it to you but you turned out fine from your perspective but if I were breeding humans as food for something I wouldn't breed you. Your intelligence would be a detriment as would your premature birth. Lucky for you your a human and not an ASF. Your value as a person is determined by much more than the circumstances surrounding your birth.