Breeding Bumble Bee To Bumble Bee

Hey all new to the forum, and just getting started on my first project,... this is more-less a question for future use but I cant find anything on it through google or on wobp.com in the Genetic Wizard, but anyway If I had a male and female bumble bee (pastel spider) and bred them together what would the estimated clutch outcome contain? any answer is greatly appreciated thanks.

Derrick & Justeena

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how did you do that i couldnt find bumble bee in the list,.. and also what would the outcome of killer bee to killer bee be? lol too many beeeeeesss


EDIT: GOD there are so many questions,... if my clutch of bumble bee x bumble bee comes out with pastel and super pastel will it be visually obvious which is which?

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They dont list bumblebee you have to click pastel + spider
Same goes for the killerbee you have to click super pastel + spider

:)

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Just wanted to add the odds are per egg not per clutch. So, technically, if the morph gods hate you, you could have all normals from a bumblebee x bumblebee pairing. :) On the flip side, you could have all killerbees too... heh :D

lol I got beat to it. When you use the wizard, You have ho highlight the genes. So for a bumble bee you have to light up pastel and spider by holding ctrl

thanks so much for the useful response guys im sure there will be plenty more to come im going to start building my rack this weekend or one of the two following and i'll be starting with 2 pastels and 2 spiders. Anything you'd like to say or offer up as advise is welcome, no matter how amateur the advise it cant hurt :)
O
k cant figure out how to add multis to one side of the genetic wizard walk through?

oops didnt read that before editing thanks again thats gonna save me alot of time and searching :)

yes, Remember that you can breed one male to several females. I made this mistake when I started. I bought everything I could and ended up male heavy with no clear direction. Figure out what you want to make, What you need and go from there.

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Originally Posted by Raverthug

yes, Remember that you can breed one male to several females. I made this mistake when I started. I bought everything I could and ended up male heavy with no clear direction. Figure out what you want to make, What you need and go from there.

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lol that's what I did!

I have 4.5 now, still male heavy though!

Any idea on question about pastel super pastel visual (scroll up a couple posts)
would it be smarter to start with 3 female pastels and one male spider (im also trying to keep the babies from seperate parents to continue breeding babies after first clutch without inbreeding)

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Originally Posted by BPNoobie

Any idea on question about pastel super pastel visual (scroll up a couple posts)
would it be smarter to start with 3 female pastels and one male spider (im also trying to keep the babies from seperate parents to continue breeding babies after first clutch without inbreeding)

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No such thing as a pastel super pastel lol. Either its a pastel or super pastel.

Buy the 3 females first if your getting hatchlings and get the male the following year. Females take 2-3 years to mature, but males only take about 6 months to a year.

From what I've gathered, you can't miss a super pastel compared to a pastel, especially right out of the egg. Super pastels are super blushed out and have very significantly faded heads.
Super pastel
Pastel

thanks, yeah probably hatchlings no idea where I could get mature females or males for that matter

check faunaclassifieds.com as well as kingsnake.com

In regards to genetic wizard, you need to know the genetic make up of combos. In your example of bumblebee, click on pastel and then click on spider while holding the command button. You can add 2, 3, or more genes this way. If you aren't sure what the genetics of a particular combo are, reference the morph list which will have the genetics listed.

If you like bumblebees, I would suggest buying a female one. Skip the trying to make them. They have come down in price enough that if your looking at buying four snakes just start with two gene females. Maybe get just two of them to start like a bee and a Lemonblast. Then get male something next year.

you'd be better off doing bee x super pastel as spider is a dominant gene and you wont getting anything unique from it. Or even bee x lemon blast, but with the 4 you are starting with you can make bees and super pastels.

I also recommend getting a visual bee at first however, if you can.

Also, I wouldn't be worrying about inbreeding yet.

Thats so funny I've been sitting here crunching the numbers on every combo of breedxbreed and I came to the conclusion that Super Pastel X Bumble Bee seems to be the most rewarding, my goal is to in the end/long run end up with Axanthic Killer Bees but even starting at the Super Pastel x Bumble bee I'd still have to breed a Killer Bee to an axanthic to get Killer Bee het axanthic and yet still breed that to my axanthic correct?

EDIT: Keep in mind my budget for BP's themselves is like 1.1K MAX after building rack etc

well, a killer bee is super pastel spider axanthic, therefore if you breed it to an axanthic you would get pastel het axanthics and bee het axanthics, but not killer bees. If you bred it to a pastel axanthic, you could get killer bee axanthics though.

After that, you'll need to breed it back to a pastel axanthic again, to ensure a pastel gene from each parent, however at that rate you only need your bee het axanthic.

I would invest in the bee, super pastel, and a pastel axanthic.

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

well, a killer bee is super pastel spider axanthic.

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Theres no Axanthic gene in a Killer bee.

Ok, stupid question

In my reading, I thought that a spider x spider breeding was considered like a fatal pairing or something. Female would throw all slugs or embryo would not fully develop and die in the egg.

Wouldn't this be the same with a bee x bee pairing since spider is in the mix or does the pastel gene offset that?

I could be totally wrong here. Learning something new everyday in this hobby.

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Originally Posted by village idiot

Theres no Axanthic gene in a Killer bee.

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I think she meant to type Axanthic Killer Bee.

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Originally Posted by joebad976

Ok, stupid question

In my reading, I thought that a spider x spider breeding was considered like a fatal pairing or something. Female would throw all slugs or embryo would not fully develop and die in the egg.

Wouldn't this be the same with a bee x bee pairing since spider is in the mix or does the pastel gene offset that?

I could be totally wrong here. Learning something new everyday in this hobby.

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I dont think its a "fatal" pairing but not recommended because of something to do with "wobble" etc and its a dominant morph.

From my understanding it came from when the spider was in question as to if it was a dom or co dom. It was thought that the super form was fatal. I know people try to avoid spider to spider out of fear of increasing the neurological tic that they have

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Originally Posted by village idiot

Theres no Axanthic gene in a Killer bee.

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I know, I was referring to the previous question, in which they were referring to axanthic killer bees. Figured people that were reading along would catch that.

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Originally Posted by Raverthug

From my understanding it came from when the spider was in question as to if it was a dom or co dom. It was thought that the super form was fatal. I know people try to avoid spider to spider out of fear of increasing the neurological tic that they have

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Spider is dominant, and the homozygous form being fatal is a theory. No one is for sure.

GRRR ok,... literally could not sleep its 1am and I need to be up for work by 6am If i breed a Killer Bee to Axanthic the only outcome is 50% Pastel het Axanthic and 50% Bumble Bee het Axanthic.... which from what I can find is the best chance of getting an Axanthic Killer Bee (still only 3.1%) does anyone know a rough ball park estimate of how much I would have to spend on hatchling Killer Bee and hatchling Axanthic I obv. need a 1.1 combination as theres no way I can afford more than one of each if I can even afford that.


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Originally Posted by BPNoobie

GRRR ok,... literally could not sleep its 1am and I need to be up for work by 6am If i breed a Killer Bee to Axanthic the only outcome is 50% Pastel het Axanthic and 50% Bumble Bee het Axanthic.... which from what I can find is the best chance of getting an Axanthic Killer Bee (still only 3.1%) does anyone know a rough ball park estimate of how much I would have to spend on hatchling Killer Bee and hatchling Axanthic I obv. need a 1.1 combination as theres no way I can afford more than one of each if I can even afford that.

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If you bred a Killerbee to Axanthic all babies will be 100% het Axanthic.

A Killer Bee male is around $850-$1,000 and female Axanthics are around $350-$450.

You could save some money by going with a regular bee and an axanthic. The male bees are about 300 right now I believe.

If you go with a bee instead of a killer bee, you will have potential normals, pastels, spiders, and bees all 100% het axanthic.
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I say to do this because if you get a killer bee and breed it to the axanthic, you will get, as you said, pastel het ax and bee het ax. The biggest difference here is that all the babies will at least be pastel het ax, and no normals will come out of it, but you're playing with the odd gods here and I think it's a better move.


After that, you can breed your male bee het ax that you hopefully produce back to the axanthic female and you will hopefully produce the axanthic bee.
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To produce the killer, you would have to raise up a pastel het ax baby and risk the odds to a bee het ax, or get a pastel axanthic initially instead of an axanthic.
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Which brings me back around to my initial recommendation of getting a pastel axanthic, and then get a male bee. Because then you could produce and breed your hopeful bee het ax male back to the pastel axanthic and get your hopeful axanthic killer bee.
I know the pastel axanthics are a bit pricey though.


Producing a recessive based morph that also includes the super form of a codominant morph and another dominant morph is not so easy, takes time, patience, and understanding of the genetics. I suggest you save up for the snakes you need, which you won't have to do much more of if you have 1.1K to spend after you get your racks. I think the pastel axanthics run about that much, maybe a little more, and then you can easily get a bee for about $300. Just save a little longer and you'll be well on your way, and much faster.

It would be a much better investment than buying a killer bee and an axanthic, as the killer bee x axanthic breeding will only produce bees het axanthic and pastel het axanthic, and then when you breed it back to the axanthic, you have ZERO chance at the killer bee. The female and male must both have the pastel gene, and both must have one copy of the axanthic gene (whether they are heterozygous or they are homozygous).

And at the beginning of this post, I recommended buying a bee and an axanthic (NOT a killer bee and an axanthic) for the same reason. Even if you went this cheaper route, it will take you just as long most likely to get to the same point as above, but it will be much, much more affordable.


Hope this helps/makes sense.

Ooh Snap! There is some super spider talk in this thread. I knew it was gonna happen and just to be a troll for a second I was going to mention the genetics wizard didnt list the super spider. Why not?? LOL.

Because it hasn't been proven that there is a homo version yet.

If you decide to go the Axanthic route, PLEASE make sure you get a quality example of the morph. Almost all of them look great as hatchlings, but the majority end up looking normal as adults. There are a few breeders that work with examples that mostly keep there color with age. IMO working with a recessive gene that might turn out looking normal as an adult is pointless. Spending the extra time and effort to find a quality example will be more than worth it in the end.

IMO I honestly think you just buy a female bee and pinstripe. In a year or so go a nice super pastel male. It would be the best bang for you buck. Keep in mind it isn't cheap for racks for hatchlings, sub adults, adults and an incubator, even home made.

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Originally Posted by ReptilesK2

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Does anyone know why 2 bumblebee's are listed in the outcome of this pairing? Looks like a 25% and 12.5% chance. May just be a glitch

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

well, a killer bee is super pastel spider axanthic, therefore if you breed it to an axanthic you would get pastel het axanthics and bee het axanthics, but not killer bees. If you bred it to a pastel axanthic, you could get killer bee axanthics though.

After that, you'll need to breed it back to a pastel axanthic again, to ensure a pastel gene from each parent, however at that rate you only need your bee het axanthic.

I would invest in the bee, super pastel, and a pastel axanthic.

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A killer bee is a super pastel spider, no axanthic from what I know.

why not just say 6/16 bumblebee?

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Originally Posted by evan385

A killer bee is a super pastel spider, no axanthic from what I know.

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AGAIN, I must clarify I was writing in context here and if you read the posts word for word you'd see that :P I was talking about killer bee on an axanthic.

I had my mind set on what I read this morning, just buying a Pastel Axanthic for the full $1100 and waiting til next year when shes half way to size to get the bee, my question is though...

wouldn't it be wiser and cheaper to get a male so i could breed him to multiple bees for better chances of my 6.25% axanthic killer? and what is the difference if anyone knows between an axanthic killer, and a zebra bee?

Also I have thought about rack cost for hatchings and subs but its at least 2 years down the road as I wont even be able to get my Pastel Axanthic til at least tax time and I'm trying to hold of til the first month of hatching season BUT thats gonna be tough for me with money in hand.

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Originally Posted by joebad976

Does anyone know why 2 bumblebee's are listed in the outcome of this pairing? Looks like a 25% and 12.5% chance. May just be a glitch

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My guess is that he(WOBP.com Mod) replaced the super spider with bumble bee. IMO, the odds on that pairing look off all together. Dur to the potential of the super spider being lethal I suggest you just pick another animal to pair with your bumblebee. Why try and make a bunch of bees when you can make a whole handful of different morphs with a different 2 gene animal involved. Just saying.

Any tips you can give on telling if an axanthic hatchling is a quality version of the breed?

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Originally Posted by BPNoobie

I had my mind set on what I read this morning, just buying a Pastel Axanthic for the full $1100 and waiting til next year when shes half way to size to get the bee, my question is though...

wouldn't it be wiser and cheaper to get a male so i could breed him to multiple bees for better chances of my 6.25% axanthic killer? and what is the difference if anyone knows between an axanthic killer, and a zebra bee?

Also I have thought about rack cost for hatchings and subs but its at least 2 years down the road as I wont even be able to get my Pastel Axanthic til at least tax time and I'm trying to hold of til the first month of hatching season BUT thats gonna be tough for me with money in hand.

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Here is the thought -
If you get a MALE pastel axanthic and a female bee, then the babies you get from that, which will be het axanthic, would have to be female, and then you would have to wait 2-3 more years before you could breed em back to dad and have your chance at axanthic bee (zebra bee, god i hate that term) or killer bee axanthic.


Like I said, axanthic bee (zebra) is pastel spider axanthic and killer bee axanthic is super pastel spider axanthic.


Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

My guess is that he(WOBP.com Mod) replaced the super spider with bumble bee. IMO, the odds on that pairing look off all together. Dur to the potential of the super spider being lethal I suggest you just pick another animal to pair with your bumblebee. Why try and make a bunch of bees when you can make a whole handful of different morphs with a different 2 gene animal involved. Just saying.

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It's not a "super spider" as spider is a dominant gene. You don't say super pinstripe or super normal either ... The calculator has those results because in a punnet square, you have difference places where the bee pops up and they just didn't get combined.

There is no super spider. It is a Dominate trait. Therefore the super cannot be lethal as it simply does not exsist.

Wanna hear it from the EvilmorphGod himself?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR...feature=relmfu

1:00 is where he states it. I would have to recommend that everyone who plans to breed morphs check out Part 1 &2. Actually I recommend watching all of Raphy's vids. Tons of great info! :gj:

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Originally Posted by AGoldReptiles

There is no super spider. It is a Dominate trait. Therefore the super cannot be lethal as it simply does not exsist.

Wanna hear it from the EvilmorphGod himself?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR...feature=relmfu

1:00 is where he states it. I would have to recommend that everyone who plans to breed morphs check out Part 1 &2. Actually I recommend watching all of Raphy's vids. Tons of great info! :gj:

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Sorry to tell you, but homozygous spider is still genetically possible and there is no proof in whether it is lethal or not. It isn't really proper to say "does not exist" when the evidence/research isn't there.

Is it lethal? Maybe, maybe not. There are not enough breedings out there to prove anything in this area. Just because high end breeders don't believe there to be doesn't mean that there isn't. They know better than to breed spider x spider because there is no point in breeding a dominant to the same dominant gene.

Getting a male recessive is not worth it unless you already have at least one older female that's at least a het. It will take much too long to finally start producing visuals, if you're lucky.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=289805

Shame I won't have the money til tax time was thinking about getting the male and then next tax year buying a couple of ready to breed female bees after seeing this post

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

It's not a "super spider" as spider is a dominant gene. You don't say super pinstripe or super normal either ... The calculator has those results because in a punnet square, you have difference places where the bee pops up and they just didn't get combined.

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

Sorry to tell you, but homozygous spider is still genetically possible and there is no proof in whether it is lethal or not. It isn't really proper to say "does not exist" when the evidence/research isn't there.

Is it lethal? Maybe, maybe not. There are not enough breedings out there to prove anything in this area. Just because high end breeders don't believe there to be doesn't mean that there isn't. They know better than to breed spider x spider because there is no point in breeding a dominant to the same dominant gene.

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You totally contradict yourself here. First you say it's not called a super spider, second you say its possible for a homozygous form. If it has a homozygous form it is a codom, therefor the homozygous form would be a super. All of this is exactly why I made the troll post a page or two back saying "oh snap, there is super spider talk in this thread". This could go on forever.

Let me add something here. If a snake has a homozygous for and does not express traits in the heterozygous form it is a simple recessive. If it expresses traits in it's heterozygous form it is a codom. Due to the fact a spider expresses traits and you are saying it is still possible to have a homozygous form then what option is left? You guys should keep all of this super spider talk for one of the thread started for it though.

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Sorry to tell you, but homozygous spider is still genetically possible and there is no proof in whether it is lethal or not. It isn't really proper to say "does not exist" when the evidence/research isn't there.

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I never said that a homozygous spider wasnt possible. I said that it doesnt exist, and until someone PROVES otherwise that statement is correct.
What more evidence and research would you like? The spider has been around since 1999 and there has never been a PROVEN homozygous spider.

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Is it lethal? Maybe, maybe not. There are not enough breedings out there to prove anything in this area. Just because high end breeders don't believe there to be doesn't mean that there isn't. They know better than to breed spider x spider because there is no point in breeding a dominant to the same dominant gene.

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NERD says that it is not lethal. Until someone PROVES otherwise I believe them. Why would they have to prove that it isnt when there is no evidence to prove that there is a lethal homozygous form.
How many breeding have there been? How many is enough?

I can think of three dominate traits off the top off my head. Spider,Pinstripe,and Granite. None of which have proven to have a homozygous form . Yet alone a homozygous that is lethal.

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Originally Posted by AGoldReptiles

I never said that a homozygous spider wasnt possible. I said that it doesnt exist, and until someone PROVES otherwise that statement is correct.
What more evidence and research would you like? The spider has been around since 1999 and there has never been a PROVEN homozygous spider.


NERD says that it is not lethal. Until someone PROVES otherwise I believe them. Why would they have to prove that it isnt when there is no evidence to prove that there is a lethal homozygous form.
How many breeding have there been? How many is enough?

I can think of three dominate traits off the top off my head. Spider,Pinstripe,and Granite. None of which have proven to have a homozygous form . Yet alone a homozygous that is lethal.

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Speaking of research....You should do some on the granite. If you are going to be firm in your answers make sure they are educated.

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Speaking of research....You should do some on the granite. If you are going to be firm in your answers make sure they are educated.

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Mike, Funny how you make a comment like this after posting this:

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If it has a homozygous form it is a codom, therefor the homozygous form would be a super

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you need to brush up on your genetics.

Now to clarify this:

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I can think of three dominate traits off the top off my head. Spider,Pinstripe,and Granite. None of which have proven to have a homozygous form . Yet alone a homozygous that is lethal.

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I you read closely I said DOMINATE traits. There seems to be two types of "granite".
Dominate, which to my knowledge have not proven to have a homozygous form. If you know of a line of DOMINATE granite that has proven to have a homozygous form, please share.
Then there are CO-DOMINATE (Incomplete Dominate) Granites in which there have been proven homozygous forms (super).
You will have to understand the difference between Dominate and Co-Dominate(Incomplete Dominate) .

FYI I have done a fair amount of research on "granites". I am actually working on my own "granite" project.