Anything for a sale

So yesterday was the white plains expo and over all I had a great time talking with some breeders and fellow reptile lovers but there was one thing that drove me a little crazy. I was looking at one table and overheard a customer asking basic questions to the seller and the answers were just ridiculous. The customer asked about housing the snake he was currently buying which was a male pastel about 300grams and his current snake a female normal who was "about 2 years old" His reasoning to the seller was that he didnt want to have to go out and buy another 40 gallon tank. So the seller says "yea shouldn't be a problem with a tank that big and it may even help them breed for you" So my jaw hit the floor and I walked away from the table because I would never buy anything from a vendor who tries to sell that way. After the guy bought the snake I walked over to him and just politely told him that there is a great forum bp.net and that he should go there with any questions and concerns. Plus I gave him my .02 about housing the animals. Hope to see him around here he seemed like a nice guy who just wanted to do what was best for the snake.

I'm not the type of person to blast an entire business online not knowing if the person making the comment was the owner of the company or just a friend helping out that day but come on man stop lying to get sales. Rant over just needed to get that off my chest.

I wouldn't have bought from that person either.

We tend to think that because someone has bred these guys and has babies, they know what they are doing. Unfortunately, balls are fairly easy to breed and just because they got lucky doesn't mean they know diddly.

I used to run into people like that all the time when I bred birds. They thought just because they put a male and female together and got a few babies that made them experts.:rolleyes:

What it made them was lucky morons who undoubtedly killed who knows how many birds by spreading their "knowledge" around. I heard one fool tell a nice lady who had just purchased a parakeet that she didn't need a second cage, she could house it just fine with her african grey parrot! :O

So no, I don't believe what I hear from someone just because they happen to have a few baby snakes. I listen politely, remember what was said, then come here for more opinions. When I bought my pastel male, who was already at 1100 grams, I was told he'd never breed because he was too fat and that is why the breeder sold him. Apparently he never got the memo, because he's a breeding machine.

Gale

People are going to house their animals however they want. If they ask me, will explain why I do not house my animals together. However, I do not tell them that they are wrong. You have to remember, just because someone does something differently than you does not mean that they are doing it wrong.

Some species do better than others when housed together. Anytime animals are housed together, however, the owner should watch them more carefully for signs of sickness or stress.

I have sold to people that house their snakes together. I always tell them my thoughts on the matter, and let them make their own decision.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Apparently he never got the memo, because he's a breeding machine.

Gale

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Too funny! My Bumblebee male is ~1300g, so I guess he's breaking the rules, too!

To the OP - That's great that you tried to educate the new owner without making a public scene with the seller. I know it can be difficult to maintain tact when someone is THAT wrong.

@whoohoo I would agree that after someone buys an animal it is up to them how to house that animal however without the proper information regarding husbandry of any species by the breeder/seller its all downhill from there. That buyer now might go on to possibly spread that useless information with others and back it up with "but i heard it from a breeder"

Thanks for the responses. I just couldn't get over the total lack of care for an animal over just getting a sale and needed to vent. For the animals sake I hope he takes my advice and comes here and joins up or at least stays in the shadows and just reads the care guide and advice we have here.

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Originally Posted by HerpIsAhobby

@whoohoo I would agree that after someone buys an animal it is up to them how to house that animal however without the proper information regarding husbandry of any species by the breeder/seller its all downhill from there. That buyer now might go on to possibly spread that useless information with others and back it up with "but i heard it from a breeder"

Thanks for the responses. I just couldn't get over the total lack of care for an animal over just getting a sale and needed to vent. For the animals sake I hope he takes my advice and comes here and joins up or at least stays in the shadows and just reads the care guide and advice we have here.

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I do agree that the seller should have informed the buyer about the possible issues with housing them together.

I think Eddie hit the nail on the head... just because he does something differently than you doesn't mean it's wrong. Who's to say that breeder hasn't been successfully cohabiting his ball pythons for the past twenty years?

I try to tell people I sell to to get a proper rack or cage,but they dont listen sold a guy my proven albino male called me back 2 months later & said he dont eat? he was one of my best eatrers,long story short he kept all 6 of his Bps in a 100 gallon aqurium:confused:,tried to explain housing them he just hung up on me unbelivable.Thats the only thing about selling animals.

I think telling someone with little experience and apparently resources (ie. can't afford another tank) that housing them together is fine, is wrong. I don't think this is a "just because they do it different doesn't make it wrong" kind of situation. It is absolutely wrong to give someone that new and that limited that kind of advice, period. Is it always wrong to house them together? Absolutely not, I personally wouldn't, but I've heard advice from very experienced and knowledgeable people who have successfully. But, giving that kind of nonchalant info to a "newb" is wrong...

That would go up my butt sideways too if I was there for that, and I think you handled it well by approaching that person and letting them know how you felt about it without being pushy. Kudos.

Housing snakes together isn't the worst thing in the world. I have two that are housed together (don't try to bash me, they had separate tanks till my fiancée broke one..) but to be honest they do BETTER together. It was horrible trying to get the pastel to eat, and now he's a eating machine. The one I got from petsmart was also a little annoying at feeding time but now eats every 5 days. Do I watch and monitor them all the time? Yes. Do I understand the risk, yes. I heard the same while.in tinley, the breeder I got the juvenile pastel from told.me, "I keep my younger ones together in groups of two's or three's until they're either 500 grams or a year old. And the trouble eaters seem to eat better this way" I could go on and on.. I would say I talked to this Guy for maybe 45 minutes? But he knew what worked for him and it's working for me with these two trouble eaters. Now, do.I think 6 snakes in a 100 gallon Aquarium is wrong, yes.. two of the same age and same size in a 20 or 40? No, as long as they have room and are okay together. To be honest, since I put them together about a month ago, the more scared pastel has calmed down seeing his "tankmate" being held. am I saying house all snakes together, no. But IN MY OPINION.. some snakes can do well together. And yes, around the start of the year or at tax time they're going to be separated as I am investing in a rank. :P

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Originally Posted by HerpIsAhobby

@whoohoo I would agree that after someone buys an animal it is up to them how to house that animal however without the proper information regarding husbandry of any species by the breeder/seller its all downhill from there. That buyer now might go on to possibly spread that useless information with others and back it up with "but i heard it from a breeder"

Thanks for the responses. I just couldn't get over the total lack of care for an animal over just getting a sale and needed to vent. For the animals sake I hope he takes my advice and comes here and joins up or at least stays in the shadows and just reads the care guide and advice we have here.

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Sorry, I forgot this.. I agree with what you say here, a breeder should always tell a customer what is recommended, and what they themselves do. A friend of mine use to breed RTB's and told people they roam is house. So some people tried it sadly. What he forgot to.mention was that he owned a house with I think it was 7? Rooms and a guest house. Compared to the average house of 2-4 rooms. I agree, breeders need to be more informative, when I bought my Burmese (I played dumb to see if the seller cared) i had multiple sellers just say they are docile and get big. No how big, nothing. It may not be housing advice but it's still the same... some "breeders" only care about a quick Buck.

Just wanted to clear something up. I don't mind other people housing a collection or just a few snakes however they want IF they are making that decision having been informed of proper husbandry requirements. Putting a 2 year old female who may or may not be getting into the breeding frame of mind with a 300 gram male is a recipe for disaster for a pet owner. Unwanted clutches, a young female becoming gravid and having problems such as becoming egg bound the problems could all easily be solved by housing them in separate tubs/tanks or whatever might tickle your fancy.

This whole thread is about just giving the buyer a truthful answer instead of whatever you know they want to hear to make a sale. I would have respected the seller much more if he said "yea I don't think its a good idea to house the male and female together unless your looking to breed them". Sure he may have lost a sale or maybe not but the animal that he bred would go to a person hopefully who understood the needs of the animal.

It is a thorny issue for sure. I know cohabitation can be done but it takes experience to do so well. The usual I don't want to buy another tank, enclosure and gear for that is quite common idea. The truth is that permanently housed together snakes, need 3 or 4 times the space of a single animal, multiple hot spots, and cool areas, and hides ect. It is not a money saver, time saver, or expense saver. It really takes careful balance to do well. Not something for a beginner and not something to save money. I am afraid I personally take a dim view of the excuse I can't afford proper housing for my snake. If you can't afford to keep it you can't afford to buy it. Most breeders I have dealt with are more interested in placing the animal in a good home than making a sale. It is sad to hear of breeders whom seem more intent on the sale than the animal.

To the broken tank person, I get it, my comments are not directed your way, correct temps and conditions must be met better two together than one dying. Temporary measures are about doing the best you can with what you have.

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Originally Posted by HerpIsAhobby

Just wanted to clear something up. I don't mind other people housing a collection or just a few snakes however they want IF they are making that decision having been informed of proper husbandry requirements. Putting a 2 year old female who may or may not be getting into the breeding frame of mind with a 300 gram male is a recipe for disaster for a pet owner. Unwanted clutches, a young female becoming gravid and having problems such as becoming egg bound the problems could all easily be solved by housing them in separate tubs/tanks or whatever might tickle your fancy.

This whole thread is about just giving the buyer a truthful answer instead of whatever you know they want to hear to make a sale. I would have respected the seller much more if he said "yea I don't think its a good idea to house the male and female together unless your looking to breed them". Sure he may have lost a sale or maybe not but the animal that he bred would go to a person hopefully who understood the needs of the animal.

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You're right, and I apologize that I streamed the topic off a bit. But on my other comment I was also agreeing. The sad truth is So many new buyers make the mistake of learning from someone who only gives minimal care to there animals. (Sadly my story) or they learn from someone who wants a quick Buck, very few now learn from a dedicated breeder who wants there animals to have the best home. Again, I apologize, I tried to agree with you that it was wrong and also share my own experience with snakes housed together.

@zeion97 no worries at all I didn't take anything negatively and hope you don't think i was coming after you at all. I love snakes and for that matter all animals. I not only have a collection of snakes but a colony of rats, mice and a few dogs and over the years I've seen animals living in terrible conditions and its just a sore spot for me overall. :gj:

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Originally Posted by HerpIsAhobby

Just wanted to clear something up. I don't mind other people housing a collection or just a few snakes however they want IF they are making that decision having been informed of proper husbandry requirements. Putting a 2 year old female who may or may not be getting into the breeding frame of mind with a 300 gram male is a recipe for disaster for a pet owner. Unwanted clutches, a young female becoming gravid and having problems such as becoming egg bound the problems could all easily be solved by housing them in separate tubs/tanks or whatever might tickle your fancy.

This whole thread is about just giving the buyer a truthful answer instead of whatever you know they want to hear to make a sale. I would have respected the seller much more if he said "yea I don't think its a good idea to house the male and female together unless your looking to breed them". Sure he may have lost a sale or maybe not but the animal that he bred would go to a person hopefully who understood the needs of the animal.

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The point I was trying to get at is that maybe to that breeder he WAS giving proper husbandry advice. Did you talk to the breeder himself and ask about it? I've come across plenty of people who have the opinion that a female won't produce eggs unless she's ready to breed and that there is no risk of becoming egg bound. Everyone has their own guidelines that they follow, to say that breeder told the customer that just to make a quick sale might be jumping the gun is all I'm saying.

@Chris I totally understood your point. I did not speak to the vendor and to be honest I didn't care too. If you were there to hear his responses you may have a different feeling just as I do. His advice wasn't coming from a genuine place and that was obvious to me listening to the conversation back and forth.

I have talked to many large scale breeders of ball pythons and not a single one that I spoke with would house animals together for anything other than to breed. It's true that I haven't had personal conversations with every breeder in the country but the larger operations that put out some of the most coveted variations in the hobby most definitely do not suggest having ball pythons housed together. Even with that said it is always up to the individual to house however they feel best suits the animal.

The breeder never once outlined a potential problem with having a male and female together in the same enclosure to this customer and that is plain wrong. That is not a statement of opinion but fact because I have seen these issues first hand and people lose females every year being egg bound so it can and does happen. If the breeder didn't know that then he shouldn't be breeding.